Sales Flops of 2005

andre1969

and it looks like the Charger sold

5222 units in August
6809 units in September
7119 units in October

They also sold the 30,000th Charger in October. Considering the car wasn't introduced until well into May, I guess that's not too bad.

andys120

A link to some sales numbers would have been more useful than a link to someone's random post.

My bad, this better?

andys120

Here in the State Capitol there's a lot of Ford 500s in the parking lots of Govt. buildings.

andys120

Dealers are seeing more luxury car trade-ins.

Here's your chance to buy that Jag cheap!

jlawrence01

Here in the State Capitol there's a lot of Ford 500s in the parking lots of Govt. buildings.

Some of the deals on the 500s and Ford Fusions that are being offered to fleets are surprising to me ... They are priced to move.

callmedrfill

:surprise:

My bad! I thought the versa was the world's ugliest sedan/hatchback! I didn't know it was a "Mini-crossover" (whatever that is). I'll have to "Reverse my thinking".

Prosa

My point was people with $29k+ to spend on an SUV aren't going to beat a path to Subaru, Outback or not. They need to start with a smaller, lighter, less ambitious SUV, then build a bigger version once acceptance is gained. Just a thought.

DrFill

lemko

Forget the Jag, gimme the Bentley Arnage in that picture!

varmint

"They need to start with a smaller, lighter, less ambitious SUV, then build a bigger version once acceptance is gained. Just a thought."

Don't let the Forester owners see that. :surprise:

The problems with the B9 Tribeca are legion. But you can't hold a discussion on the subject without the word "shnoz" showing up.

chuck1

"Some of the deals on the 500s and Ford Fusions that are being offered to fleets are surprising to me ... They are priced to move."

Translated - The 500's are not selling well to the public-we have to keep the assembly lines moving - let's blow them out to the rental companies, fleets, etc.

This is one of THE MOST boring cars Ford has EVER DESIGNED. I hear it's getting a "makeover" ASAP! Hopefully, before I'm due a new company car next year!

dewey

If the Cayenne sells 1000 a month at $60k, I'd say it was holding it's own! Lexus LX doesn't do that anymore.

I dont think so, 10 months of nosediving sales is not what I call holding its own. A V6 VW Cayenne has to be the biggest joke in the SUV industry!

Cayenne Nosedive

lemmer

I would call it holding its own. Check own the other players in that segment and their 2005 sales before you make that call.

esf

It's called the Phaeton, not the "Photon" as you said. And the reason it's so unsuccessful is its two arch rivals: the Audi A8L and the new Mercedes-Benz S-Class. The A8 is updated this year, with the new grille which looks quite handsome on it, along with just a less-bland styling theme. Don't get me wrong- the A8 has been my personal pick since it came out in 2003, it just needs a little more pep. The S-Class... that new one looks disgustingly chunky for a luxury liner, but I'm sure it will blow the Phaeton away. The A8 is almost the same price as the VW, has a better name, a better-designed interior, nicer styling and weighs less. Who would buy the Phaeton with that against it? The S-Class should be the average over spending stupid person's dream machine, with its overdone exterior and interior. The Phaeton is a perfectly nice car, it just doesn't belong there.

prosa

They need to start with a smaller, lighter, less ambitious SUV, then build a bigger version once acceptance is gained. Just a thought.

Don't let the Forester owners see that.

As a (proud) new Forester owner, I'd have to disagree. Foresters may be classified as SUV's for emissions and safety-testing purposes but don't really compete for the same buyers. While their seating position is higher than on an ordinary sedan, it is not as high as on a true SUV; seating position is what counts, because it's one of the main motivations - if not the motivation - behind SUV purchases.
While some Forester buyers may have considered small SUV's such as Escapes and CR-V's, I believe that most had considered sedans but decided to get something a bit different, with more carrying capacity.

jlawrence01

Translated - The 500's are not selling well to the public-we have to keep the assembly lines moving - let's blow them out to the rental companies, fleets, etc.

They held the Taurus for an extra year - and probably would have like to kept it for 2-3 more years - in the Fleet sales. However, they were having problems selling the Taurus anymore due to remarketing issues. It is hard to ditch an old model and get any reasonable return for it.

As a fleet manager, I am looking for a reliable car that will be cheap to operate at a good price. I don't care that much about the styling as long as it fits four people. For the most part, I am buying transportation at a good price. And had I had a lower priced option in that category from GM or Chrysler, I would go that way.

callmedrfill

Never even crossed my mind! :confuse:

But I did leave out the impressively ugly coprorate grille that is replicating throughout the lineup like a malignancy.

RE: the Cayenne, 1000 sales a month is still pretty strong when you look at it's price point. If sales are down, that means it was overachieving for awhile.

You know, another sales disappointment to me is the 4Runner. It's is losing ground to a 5 year-old Highlander!

DrFill

andys120

You know, another sales disappointment to me is the 4Runner. It's is losing ground to a 5 year-old Highlander!

Hardly surprising, crossover sales are hot truck-SUVs are not.

Mr_Shiftright

You could always buy a Jaguar cheap in the used car market, that's nothin' new.

martian

Just what was Wolfsburg thinking with this bomb? A VW for close to 100K $? Who in that market segment would consider a VW? Its like the Taureg/Cayeen situation: why pay 10K$ more for a VW with a Porsche badge on it? The two cars are practically identical-this is repeating what GM has been doing for years (badge engineering). Only, it doesn't make sense in the world of high-priced barnds.

210delray

Well, everyone knows it was Herr Piech's baby. Certainly his underlings had their doubts about bringing this car to market, but who's to argue with the big cheese? Maybe VW should have called it the Piech to satiate his big ego.

chuck1959

I've only seen a few G class as well. I'm guessing the sales haven't varied much on them one way or the other. The cars on the top ten list all had significant percentage sales drops.

It's not a surrpise to me. The G starts at $78,900 to $80,900.....the AMG version $101,400 to $104,500

anythngbutgm

You'd think people would have learned from the Cimarron

lemko

Isn't there a cheap Malaysian car called the Photon? They could sell a million of these to Trekkies if they had a model called the Photon Torpedo.

varmint

You might be thinking of Proton.

IIRC, they are most famous for producing a concept car which internet junkies mislabeled the next NSX.

andys120

it's not a bad car from what I gather. It's basically a branding mistake born of Herr Dr. Piech's mistaken desire to move the Volkswagen brand up market, perhaps to punish Daimler-Chrysler for moving into VW's area with the A and B Class M-Bs.

If the Phaeton had been badged as say a "Horch"
or an "Auto Union" and sold thru Audi dealers it might have been widely hailed.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda..

carguy58

06 Hyundai Sonata-I know its selling but I don't see a whole lot of them. I think most of them are being sold to rental fleets. I see Pennsylvania or Massachusetts plate on the Sonata I see and usually if you see a Pennsylvania or Massachusetts plate(without the dealer advertising anywhere on the car)in New Jersey I would think its a rental.

Nissan Maxima- I think styling is hurting it.

Mazda 6-great styling but not enough interior room to compete in this class. They do have some popularity in NJ though.

Nissan Titan- I don't see a lot of Titans in NJ.

Pontiac G6- I see some around but it doesn't seem to have the popularity that the Grand Am did. Overall sales numbers tell the story too.

Chevy Malibu-I don't see many around. I see more Ford 500's around than I see 04 and up Malibu's.

Scion XB-Styling is jus too weird. Its like seeing a Ferrari if you see an XB in NJ.

Scion XA-Again its like seeing a Ferrari in NJ.

2004+ Mitsubishi Galant-I think Mitsu sells 3,000-4000 Galants a month. I think the Eclipse actually outsold the Galant 1 or 2 times during the last few months. The car is way overstyled on the exterior and the interior is cheap. This is how bad Galant sales are: in the 2004 model year the Mazda 6 sold 72K units(thats a low number for the midsize class) and the Galant sold 43K units.

andys120

I see alot of 'em here in NH, but hardly any of those nice wagons. I wonder if the pricey Mazdaspeed6 version will catch on.

lemko

My brother had a 2000 Hyundai Sonata that he was pretty happy with and wanted to buy a 2006 Hyundai Sonata - that was until he saw what it looked like - a ripoff of the current Honda Accord. He, instead, bought a leftover 2005 model.

andre1969

but while I agree that the '06 Sonata is a ripoff of the Accord, somehow I think this is one of those rare cases where the imitation looks better than the original! Seems like a lot of car for the money, too. I think I'd still go with the Accord, which is just more proven, IMO. And has the better resale. The nice thing about an Accord or Camry is that, even if you end up hating it, resale is good enough that you could get out of it without losing your shirt. Let's just say that it's a good thing I liked my Intrepid, because if I didn't, I wouldn't have been able to trade until it was about 4 years old if I wanted to break even!

Now that I think about it, I haven't exactly seen a ton of Sonatas on the road, either. Considering how improved it is, I thought it would be a smash hit.

andys120

are selling reasonably well here but Hyundais are poular here. Local dealer dropped Saturn to pick it up, smartest thing he ever did.

I think they're attractive.

210delray

What you see on the road can be misleading. You need to look at the actual sales numbers.

As of October 31, Hyundai had sold about 95,000 Sonatas from the beginning of the year, but only about 32,000 were domestically produced, meaning the 2006 V6 Sonata. The rest were mostly imported 2005 models with a smattering of 4-cylinder 2006s.

carguy58

"I see alot of 'em here in NH, but hardly any of those nice wagons. I wonder if the pricey Mazdaspeed6 version will catch on."

I don't see alot of 6 wagons either and I think most of them are sold to rental fleets. As I matter of fact I see more 6 hatchbacks than 6 wagons around in Central or the lower Northern part of NJ. I live in Central NJ and travel to the lower part of Northern Jersey everyday. The hatcbacks that I see are not rentals either I don;t think since they have the dealer advertising around the license plates. I don't think Mazda is too popular in Southern Jersey or the Top half of Northern Jersey.

guss

everyday in my driveway. It was a North Jersey resident before I purchased it used with 13k miles.I think it was rental based at the airport.

You are right , I hardly ever see another 6 wagon though. Makes it nice to have a rare car you don't see at every corner.

I do see a lot of 6 sedans and hatchbacks though.I don't think the Mazda 6 line is a flop, but I bet it is short of what Mazda was hoping for.

andre1969

is a pretty rare sight around my neck of the woods. The Mazda3 seems to be more prevalent.

guss

I would think the biggest disappointment would be the new GM mini-vans.I guess Chevy,Buick and Saturn all have their version out by now.

I just never see any on the street. GM took this bold move to capture mini-van sales and went with a mini-van that looked like a SUV and nobody cared.

I would bet their sales numbers were not up much over the previous model.

andre1969

on the sales lots! :P

chuck1959

Personally I liked the new look. But I'll keep my Chrysler Town and Country as I love the sto and go seats.

merc1

And the reason it's so unsuccessful is its two arch rivals: the Audi A8L and the new Mercedes-Benz S-Class.

The A8 and S-Class had nothing to do with the Phaeton flopping. The Phaeton flopped because it was not only too expensive for VW, but VW's dealer and sales setup can't even handle Passat/Jetta/Golf buyers in the way of customer service so they were clueless on how to handle a buyer of a 70K car. Wrong price, badge, dealer network and so on, had nothing to do with other cars in the range because IMO just looking at the car itself it was just as good as any of the others in most respects. It was the dealer setup and VW's own inexpensive car roots that killed the car here and eventually in Europe too.

M

prosa

GM is coming out with new crossover-type minivans for MY 2008.

derrado1

May I ask... who actually buys the Chevy Monte Carlo? It's a two-door coupe, with no style), GM's tried-and-true 3.8... and virtually nothing going for it.

I can see a few groups:
-Rental companies that want to offer a cheap coupe (and who used to use Thunderbirds in the 90's)
-Monte Carlo fans
-NASCAR fans (even though the NASCAR Monte Carlo is an entirely different beast)

and... umm. Well that's all I can think of.
Does anyone know? Does anyone see any on the roads?

Oh and I know the GM CSV's are rubbish but, I must admit, the Saturn Relay looks pretty good. Exterior looks relatively upmarket, almost Volvo-y. Montana is a bit too old-Pontiac though and the Terraza looks too cheap.

rroyce10

....... Keep in mind what is selling Sonata's -- price ...

Anytime "any" vehicle is $2,000/$3,000 less than it's competitors, it's going to sell .. because the vast market is payment buyers and $50/$60 a month can change most minds ...



Terry.

rroyce10

.. **It's a two-door coupe, with no style), GM's tried-and-true 3.8... and virtually nothing going for it ..**


Perhaps you don't like the styling (or I for that matter) but alot of folks do .... 2 door vehicles will always hold a niche market, like the 3 series Bimmer or the Ford Mustang .. it's at trade time they take the beating ...

Don't knock the NASCAR fans .. because in 5 years or less that market will be bigger than the NFL watchers -- but don't ask me why.!



Terry

bottgers

Careful there! There seems to be a huge following of poeple in this forum who believe the Koreans are building vehicles with Honda/Toyota-like build quality, and that's why they're selling. I'm not one of them. Until I start seeing Korean vehicles still on the road with 200K+ miles in similar numbers as the Japanese vehicles, like yourself, I will continue to believe they're selling because of their lower prices and longer warranties.

lemko

"Don't knock the NASCAR fans .. because in 5 years or less that market will be bigger than the NFL watchers -- but don't ask me why!"

I can tell you why, because NFL fans are sick of prima donnas like T.O.! I can't think of any prima donna NASCAR drivers except maybe Jeff Gordon.

carguy58

is a pretty rare sight around my neck of the woods. The Mazda3 seems to be more prevalent."

I do see my share of 3's around the lower part of Northern Jersey and Central Jersey. Your right the 3 does seem to be outnumber(be more prevalent) than the number of 6's I see on the road. As a matter of fact I think the 3 is one of Mazda's biggest selling cars in awhile.

carguy58

"**It's a two-door coupe, with no style), GM's tried-and-true 3.8... and virtually nothing going for it ..**"

The 00-05 Monte Carlo was a styling mess and ugly in my opinion. The back end was designed to look like the mid 80's Monte Carlo and the exterior styling wise just did not look right. The 95-99 Monte Carlo while not sporty on the outside looked better than the 00-05 model.

"Perhaps you don't like the styling (or I for that matter) but alot of folks do .... 2 door vehicles will always hold a niche market, like the 3 series Bimmer or the Ford Mustang .. it's at trade time they take the beating ..."

Weel the Honda Accord coupe has good resale value. Yes I know about Coupes and resale value now since I am an owner of an 02 Acura CL.


"Don't knock the NASCAR fans .. because in 5 years or less that market will be bigger than the NFL watchers -- but don't ask me why.!"

Hey! I am a NASCAR fan and was a Rusty Wallace fan for 10 years until he retired recently. I don't think the NASCAR ratings will top the NFL ever. I know NASCAR ratings are pretty even with PGA Golf and Pro Tennis and are way better than the NHL. Still the NBA(I think a little bit)and MLB ratings are better than NASCAR.

carguy58

"Careful there! There seems to be a huge following of poeple in this forum who believe the Koreans are building vehicles with Honda/Toyota-like build quality, and that's why they're selling. I'm not one of them. Until I start seeing Korean vehicles still on the road with 200K+ miles in similar numbers as the Japanese vehicles, like yourself, I will continue to believe they're selling because of their lower prices and longer warranties."

I do think Hyundai is building a quality vehicle nowadays and I am Honda and a Mazda guy as well. As for Kia which happens to be another korean company which is 65% owned by Hyundai butI am not sold on their cars though. Their dealer network is very small and their exterior styling of their cars are not to my liking. The Kia dealer by where I live shut down. I also seen a kia dealer on Rt1 in South or North Brunswick, NJ and their dealer was so small and almost like a privately owned used car lot.

carguy58

"I can tell you why, because NFL fans are sick of prima donnas like T.O.! I can't think of any prima donna NASCAR drivers except maybe Jeff Gordon."

The NFL is not of T.O.'s. Come on now. T.O. just doesn;t know how to form relationships with people. He was made fun of as a kid. I'm not excusing his behavior at all but he needs to when and how to pick his battles with teamates. He said too many negative things about the Eagles organization that he shouldn't have said. His grandma who raised him as a kid told him to say what he always felt. Unfortanately, there is some things you shouldn't say in public which he did. His press conference was too late with his apology to the Eagles Organization.

As for Jeff Gordon I love to hate him because I was a Wallace fan for all those years but he never did anything as destructive as T.O. did. I have to give credit to Gordon too because he was a driver that bought NASCAR to its poularity today. Yes drivers like Dale Earnhardt SR. and Rusty Wallace and even Mark Martin were also forces in bringing NASCAR mainstream but Gordon brought the young fan into NASCAR in the mid to late 90's because he was so marketable towards a younger crowd.

andre1969

One reason that the Monte Carlo might still sell tolerably is that, if you want a fairly large (by today's standards...it would've been considered a compact once upon a time), domestic personal luxury coupe, the Monte is the only game in town. This once vast market started shrinking in the 80's, and with the demise of the Grand Prix coupe, that leaves just the Monte.

Truth be told, I think the Accord coupe and Solara have a bit of personal luxury coupe in their blood. The Solara even has a bit of flambuoyance in its styling that's evocative of the over-styled personal luxury coupe vein.

A few years back when my Dad was thinking about getting a car, he was interested in a Monte Carlo. Until I showed him what the newest ones looked like. He was totally repulsed...it turns out the ones he was seeing that he liked was the '95-99 model!

Maybe the '06 facelift will help sales of the Monte. It's not as thorough as the Impala's facelift, but I think it's an improvement.

carguy58

"The A8 and S-Class had nothing to do with the Phaeton flopping. The Phaeton flopped because it was not only too expensive for VW, but VW's dealer and sales setup can't even handle Passat/Jetta/Golf buyers in the way of customer service so they were clueless on how to handle a buyer of a 70K car. Wrong price, badge, dealer network and so on, had nothing to do with other cars in the range because IMO just looking at the car itself it was just as good as any of the others in most respects. It was the dealer setup and VW's own inexpensive car roots that killed the car here and eventually in Europe too."

VW's are getting too expensive for their price. They are not even as reliable as some Domestic Big 3 makes let alone the Japanese and yet they cost more to own. Their styling has gone downhill. I was a 02-05 Passat fan but the new Passat just doesn't look as sleek as the 02-05 model and the new Jetta looks like a Toyota Corolla. VW's plan to go upmarket is backfiring in my opinion. I;m surprised their quality problems since the late 90's are still going on. Don't they fix their problems on their models after a first year of resdesign on a model?

fintail

I don't think the facelift can make the Monte worse...it is indeed one of the ugliest larger cars on the market. It can only help.

And yeah, the current model with curves in all the wrong places sells because it is the last domestic personal luxury style car. Lots of people were around when those were the trend, and some still think it's the thing to have. Resale is catastrophic.