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Can VW Overtake Toyota and GM To Become #1?

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    berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Russia doesn't extort, they just kill B)
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    carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    berri said:

    Russia doesn't extort, they just kill B)

    No they will just conquer Germany like they did Crimea LOL
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    carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    WW3 will start in Germany with all the Syrian refugees joining the Russians to take over Germany and call it Bundestan :)
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Can VW Overtake Toyota and GM To Become #1?

    (not anytime soon absent Toyota and GM both shooting themselves in the foot)

    Just arrived in Chattanooga but haven't had time to chat anyone up about dieselgate. Or the UAW for that matter.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Latest Car and Driver editorial also wonders if VW will cause the death of the diesel car in America. They might just ditch the U.S. diesel market. VW has a few new products in the wings (maybe not enough)-- a new electric concept vehicle with the old microbus image attached, and a Beetle coupe and a Golf Allroad Sportwagon. Also rumors of them shedding Lambo and Bentley. I hope they keep the TDI in that Golf Sportwagon though. That wold be a pretty nice niche product.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,214
    I think MB diesels might be enough of a niche to keep going. Those consumers won't pretend to have grandiose environmental concerns, they just like how they drive.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Any idea how many diesels MB sells in the U.S. annually?
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    texases said:

    Not going to happen. Germans have no love lost for Russia.

    Historically that is very true. However, Germany needs Russian gas and oil, more than they do stuff from US. I have a feeling they would like to drop the sanctions against Russia as that whole situation in Ukraine was caused by our CIA meddling in their politics.

    All I care is that Germany continues to supply US with great diesel vehicles. I have yet to see anything from VW that they cheated on the 3.0L diesel in my SUV. The letter I got did not admit any guilt.


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    berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Germany is about Germany. I'm sure they want to get rid of the Iran sanctions too.

    Don't know about your vehicle, but some Audi 3L are affected. I saw that VW depreciation has recently stepped up a bit.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    berri said:

    Germany is about Germany. I'm sure they want to get rid of the Iran sanctions too.

    Don't know about your vehicle, but some Audi 3L are affected. I saw that VW depreciation has recently stepped up a bit.


    The EPA claims all the 3.0 L TDIs from 2009-2016 are not up to snuff. VW claims it is just an allegation, not yet established as is the 2.0L TDI cheating. Audi builds the 3.0L for VW and Porsche. All the same engine.
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    carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    Sanctions are all about horse trading . They affect the imposer and the target countries in different ways . USA does not export anything significant to Russia or Iran so is least affected by imposing it . Germany has lots of potential engineering and construction contracts and tends to lose more economicaly by imposing sanctions . What is Americas interest does not need to he Germanys interest and so to France's  interest. They just follow to keep USA happy as part of NATO .  Having troops on the German soil does not mean it can dictate Germany . They can very well ask the USA to withdraw its troops and break Russian sanctions or Iranian sanctions if it so chooses to do if it benefits them economicaly and USA tries to bankrupt their largest corporation  and employer which is what VW is like our Walmart here in the USA . Imagine Germany asking Walmart to pay $48 Billion in fines . By the way Walmart did not suceed in Germany as it fell foul of its powerful labour unions :smile: 
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    For a company that is interested in "making things right", they just totally PO'ed a group of U.S. state attorneys general by citing the protection of German law in not turning over requested documents. I suppose if VW were a U.S. politician doing this, we'd be all him like fleas on a dog.

    VW brand sales in the U.S. fell 9% last month.
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    carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    For a company that is interested in "making things right", they just totally PO'ed a group of U.S. state attorneys general by citing the protection of German law in not turning over requested documents. I suppose if VW were a U.S. politician doing this, we'd be all him like fleas on a dog.

    VW brand sales in the U.S. fell 9% last month.

    They had less then 5% of total car sales so a 9% of that is hardly a earth shaking figure. If GM was facing same fines in Germany our patriotic citizens would be marching in DC demanding boycott of BMW VW and MB cars. American patriotism is a laughing stock in Europe if you have ever lived in Europe. Remember freedom fries and the French hatred during Sddam bashing gulf war ? ? Every European country hates USA and most Americans don't give a damn and that feeling is mutual in Europe. I worked in UK for 8 years and know the anti American feelings first hand.
    Just watch how much fines VW will ultimately pay after the political horse trading :smile:
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    We must travel to different Europes :)
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    carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    We must travel to different Europes :)

    or meet different types of people :smile:

    Living in Europe for 8 years is different then touring Europe for 8 days :worried:
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Spent a lot of time there, so I'm good. Some Europeans criticize certain American traits, and with good reason (too loud, outwardly but superficially friendly, too full of themselves, provincial, etc) but they don't HATE us, not by a long shot. I could tell you who they do hate, but I won't go there.
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    carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    Most of them who I have talked to think that USA meddling in the rest of the World as a Policeman is the cause of all the ills in the middle east, Korea Vietnam Ukraine.... You name it and Americans meddling sticks out like a sore thumb .You must be moving around in elite circles in Europe ;)
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Europeans are much more politically aware then Americans, and better educated in general, and do not tend to view things in black and white. They can differentiate between people and governments.

    I rather doubt that the German government is real pleased with VW at the moment.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,214
    edited January 2016
    The UK is NOT Europe (and wants out of the EU ). The UK is an Orwellian island with an iffy future, and is much more like the US than most want to admit. Reminds me of Canuckistanians who think they are cultured Europeans when they are more like the 52nd state.

    Germany won't ask the US defense sector to leave, it's much cheaper than self-protection, and subsidizes some of the economy - also helps play into the latent guilt most politicos rely on to keep in power.

    "Every European country hates USA"

    Hogwash, yeah, so much hate while lining up for Mickey D's, Pizza Hut, Coke, American movies and music and clothing and and and. Makes me wonder if someone has actually visited the continent, the real Europe. Some young people will blast out silly things about the evil yanks, but hate, LOLOLOLOL.

    There will be no trade war, no sanctions, none of the rest of this dopey babble.

    Related, much of Europe isn't a huge help to Toyota or especially Lexus.
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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,730
    I'm sure many Europeans understand European colonialism is the source of many of the problems listed - Viet Nam, Middle East, and Africa in particular.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Europeans are much more politically aware then Americans, and better educated in general, and do not tend to view things in black and white. They can differentiate between people and governments.

    I rather doubt that the German government is real pleased with VW at the moment.

    I am sure you are right that the German government is not happy with whomever caused DIESELGATE. I don't think for a minute they would try to fine them into bankruptcy like the Detroit members of the US Justice dept are trying to do. I cannot imagine any company paying $48 billion without a HUGE fight. The question is how much will the US Justice dept waste prosecuting their silly case? I would much rather see them go after the banksters that bilked US out of $100s of billions. This is the most corrupt US justice department we have ever had, and this case against VW further proves it.
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    berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Well then, maybe VW should be greasing some hands in Congress B)
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    carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    gagrice said:
    Europeans are much more politically aware then Americans, and better educated in general, and do not tend to view things in black and white. They can differentiate between people and governments. I rather doubt that the German government is real pleased with VW at the moment.
     I cannot imagine any company paying $48 billion without a HUGE fight. The question is how much will the US Justice dept waste prosecuting their silly case?
    The answer is NO company will ever pay even one tenth of that amount . It is just a wind fall in lawyers fees for the lucky well connected lawyers . 
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I"m not so sure. This is a SERIOUS violation, rather unprecedented, in that it displays malice and intent at the very highest levels of corporate rule. This isn't an engineering glitch, or a middle-management miscalculation, or a bean-counter effect or a sub-supplier foul up. This is a blatant defrauding of the consumer. I think the penalties won't be the max, but they will be severe.

    This scandal is an extremely ugly business.
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    carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    Only in USA , killing people is a lesser crime then cheating and defrauding. Look at the police killing innocent people and lying and cheating to cover it up. The whole world is now aware how hypocrite Americans are :o
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,214
    Maybe they will boycott American goods! LULZ ...if I want to see hypocrites, I go to Limeyland.

    I think Shifty is being dramatic though. This isn't a case because the consumer was defrauded. This is a case because the government was tricked. Those egos don't like being fooled.

    IMO logically it is much less of a scandal than the recent Toyota and GM safety issues, but logic has no place when the taxpayer is funding the prosecution.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well you could look at it this way but I don't see how you can't define this as fraud. You buy a battery, or a refrigerator, or whatever, that advertises it to be a certain capacity, or an air filter than advertises to clean at a certain micron level, and then you find out that you bought something far less than you expected.

    The GM ignition switch is a straw man argument. It's easy to set them up and knock them down, but the two situations aren't similar at all. GM didn't sit down and plan to kill people---VW sat down to defraud you.
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    carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    ---VW sat down to defraud you

    Me or the Government ??

    I got a highly fuel efficient TDI which gives more mpg and torque then any comparable gasser.
    NOX emissions are Government's problem .Neither will I die by driving a TDi because of extra emissions., unlike likely to die from faulty ignition switches of GM cars.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,214
    VW fooled the government, not the consumer. It could be called fraud, but not against consumers IMO. They lied and tricked some fairly arrogant people, who will now do what they can to save face. I sincerely doubt 99.9999% of buyers of these cared two bits about the emissions aspect. They may claim different when a lawyer pops up, I call that lying.

    When companies see a fatal flaw and ignore it based on accounting, they might as well be planning to kill people. No straw man.

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    carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    When companies see a fatal flaw and ignore it based on accounting, they might as well be planning to kill people. No straw man.

    I have to very grudgingly agree with you !!
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Fintail says: I think Shifty is being dramatic though. This isn't a case because the consumer was defrauded. This is a case because the government was tricked. Those egos don't like being fooled.

    IMO logically it is much less of a scandal than the recent Toyota and GM safety issues, but logic has no place when the taxpayer is funding the prosecution.

    When companies see a fatal flaw and ignore it based on accounting, they might as well be planning to kill people. No straw man.

    Don't forget it was Bosch that put the cheating code in. Did they in fact let VW know? Did VW say Oh Well? Did anyone but a few in that part of the Engineers group know? Bosch is included in the Justice dept lawsuit. I find it all far less incriminating than the pencil pushers at GM deciding to leave the faulty ignition switches in for 13 years, until the body count was so high the courts finally shot them down.

    Prosecutors in Stuttgart said they are investigating whether Robert Bosch GmbH employees helped Volkswagen AG rig software to cheat on emissions tests.
    The probe is looking at corporate staff at the car-parts maker, which provided VW with the software, but no suspects have been identified, Claudia Krauth, spokeswoman for Stuttgart prosecutors, said in an interview Tuesday.
    "In the wake of what was reported about the emissions case at Volkswagen, we concluded that someone must have produced the software," said Krauth. "It was obvious which company came into question."
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    There's plenty of quotes out there from people who purchased VW diesels partly based on their "green-ness".
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    carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    stever said:
    There's plenty of quotes out there from people who purchased VW diesels partly based on their "green-ness".
    By hindsight, they now see $$$ in compensation , and are coached by the ambulance chaser Attorneys 
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    If that wasn't a carrot to buy a VW diesel, what was the whole "clean diesel" ad campaign about?
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    carboy21 said:


    stever said:

    There's plenty of quotes out there from people who purchased VW diesels partly based on their "green-ness".

    By hindsight, they now see $$$ in compensation , and are coached by the ambulance chaser Attorneys 

    That is exactly it. CNN reports "DOZENS of owners being upset". Not very many with 480K sold. Of course a person would like to get their money all back after driving their 4 year old Audi TDI 80k miles. I wonder how many will give them up in trade for a VW gasser? I know I would not even think of it.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,214
    Making people think their thrift had altruistic side-effects.

    Just like how hybrid and EV owners pretend to be "clean", just don't think how and where the batteries are made.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2016
    Yeah well my friends are mighty upset, too. They feel like vw has turned them into all day suckers... Green ones.  A few GM owners suffered ( and lost control of their own vehicles) but EVERY  vw diesel owner who bought the subject vehicles has lost value. Wait. It gets worse.  The scale of this treachery is not comparable to GM IMO because it implies contempt not just for buyers of their cars but for everyone who breathes the emissions from their vehicles.  It also expresses disdain for the rule of law in the very country they profit from. 
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,214
    Some GM owners also died what were preventable deaths. IMO the contempt for buyers only applies if VW knew it would get caught. Otherwise, the buyers would still get their mpg, which is why they bought the things to begin with. People are upset about resale value hits. Emissions are secondary - this is about lies first.

    We all have some disdain for the rule of law in the country we reside in. VW just did it the wrong way, cheated instead of lobbied.
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    berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    edited January 2016
    I see the whole VW thing with simplicity. They cheated and lied. Not just in the US, but elsewhere as well. People don't like to be cheated or lied to. Now VW is apparently holding back information on what and how they cheated. Technically, they have aright to do some of this under international law, but realistically it will just inflame more people and further hurt their corporate and product image. I've always kind of doubted that Camry's accelerated all by themselves, and Toyota at first balked at the whole thing. The PR was ugly and they then quickly paid up and moved on. Toyota and the Camry are doing very well today. If someone doesn't think places like China will care about VW cheating and lying about emissions, I think they are only kidding themselves. VW, and particularly Audi and Porsche, have been on a roll until this. I think they need to review the Toyota experience and learn. GM tried to stonewall on ignitions initially, even invoking their BK protection from liability. Well, that went over like ham at a bar mitzvah with the public and then GM quickly brought in outside assistance and reversed course. To me at least, it's not about being technically or legally correct, it's about how it gets interpreted in the press and marketplace that will have the most impact longer term. I think VW needs to just lay it out, apologize profusely, explain how they are going to make things right, perhaps bringing in outside independent audit or counsel to verify the veracity of VW's actions and responses, and move out smartly with some urgency to minimize potential long term ramifications to their image and brand. If you look at corporate crisis from the past, this is usually the effective way to fix it. I think Johnson & Johnson proved that with the Tylenol crisis several decades ago and most smart corporations have used that very same technique when they've run into a major product and company image problem. So VW, stop lawyering up on all of this, get a good PR firm and get it done. Be prudent with your money, but not stupid with your market.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited January 2016
    VW In second spot for 2015. They sold 174,000 less than Toyota. GM holds onto 3rd place.

    Today, the company said that it has delivered 9,930,600 units worldwide for the full year of 2015, down from a record 10.1 million in 2014.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmitt/2016/01/08/toyota-again-worlds-largest-automaker-as-volkswagen-concedes/
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    carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    So VW, stop lawyering up on all of this, get a good PR firm and get it done. Be prudent with your money, but not stupid with your market.

    Any good defense Attorney will tell you that the first rule of defense is never admit to your guilt. Let the prosecution prove with facts and evidence. When $48 BILLION in fines is involved, it is prudent to be lawyered up. VW made the mistake of admitting that it had put cheating devices. There is no way anyone can prove those devices without going to the actual source code and that is an industrial secret well guarded by Bosch/VW
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I guess VW didn't consult with their legal beagles when they did their mea culpa to CARB and the EPA. We're kind of beyond the guilt/innocence stage.

    J&J got some flack for "caving" back in the Tylenol scare but they very effectively protected their reputation with their quick recall actions.
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    carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    stever said:

    I guess VW didn't consult with their legal beagles when they did their mea culpa to CARB and the EPA. We're kind of beyond the guilt/innocence stage.

    .

    Heads will roll for that stupid blunder. There was no way to prove the existence of the cheating devices.

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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    fintail said:

    Some GM owners also died what were preventable deaths. IMO the contempt for buyers only applies if VW knew it would get caught. Otherwise, the buyers would still get their mpg, which is why they bought the things to begin with. People are upset about resale value hits. Emissions are secondary - this is about lies first.

    We all have some disdain for the rule of law in the country we reside in. VW just did it the wrong way, cheated instead of lobbied.

    I don't think that's an entirely fair statement. Many people bought into the idea (promulgated by VW's rather lavish PR campaign) of "clean diesel", and by greenie websites as well.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2016
    carboy21 said:

    stever said:

    I guess VW didn't consult with their legal beagles when they did their mea culpa to CARB and the EPA. We're kind of beyond the guilt/innocence stage.

    .

    Heads will roll for that stupid blunder. There was no way to prove the existence of the cheating devices.

    It's been proven already on YouTube. They tricked a VW diesel with a 4-wheel dyno into thinking it was being emissions tested by the EPA cycle and the cheating software immediately changed the engine inputs. You can see it right on the dyno readouts and tailpipe sniffer.

    I think VW caved in right away because they knew they would be proven guilty, and they'd like to get all this behind them ASAP. A long, drawn out investigation, and continued stonewalling in the face of certain defeat made no sense to them apparently.
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    berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    If I was the German government right now, being an export dependent economy, I'd want to make sure no subcontractors or vendors possibly involved in this VW escapade have done similar stuff to MB or BMW. German products have a strong reputation for engineering that results in high profit margins. A series of these kind of things could dilute this, just like some Japanese car company quality lapses took away most of their ability to charge higher prices for quality in the world marketplace.

    As for VW, they got caught red handed by independent testing. I don't think they would have admitted it otherwise. They now just need to clean it up quickly before it soils the brands.

    As for diesels, I think the US market still kind of thinks of them as dirty, smelly and noisy, even though its not as true anymore. But this incident won't help. It just moves the needle more toward hybrids here probably.
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    carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    edited January 2016
    I think VW caved in right away because they knew they would be proven guilty, and they'd like to get all this behind them ASAP. A long, drawn out investigation, and continued stonewalling in the face of certain defeat made no sense to them apparently.

    It is never too late to regroup your defense strategy. They are now stonewalling and refuse to provide emails and documents and the source code for the car's fuel computer. They can litigate this matter in international courts with multiple appeals till the cows come home and USA racks up millions in taxpayer funded legal fees.
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    berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    But what's the biggest expense long term to VW, legal liability or brand success? The more extended the litigation. the longer you are in the press getting often bad PR. That can affect resale and sales. I'd have thought that VW would understand all of that after the long time a dark cloud hung over Audi because of the 5000. It may not have been right, but it happened and almost destroyed the brand. You can pretty much be assured that a long drawn out legal battle on this in the US will be making news in Europe and Asia too.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2016
    Last I heard, VW had a lot of 2016 cars stockpiled at the ports they'd like to sell in the US but can't until the mess gets straightened out. (theguardian.com)

    Makes you wonder if they've retooled some of their lines to make gassers or if those factory lines are idle, or have reduced production numbers. Maybe VW is trying to dump US spec diesels on other countries.

    Not a lot of motivation to drag out the legal mess unless they intend to walk away from that market here.

    Kind of wish they would, and just focus on the gassers until they get their hybrids and EVs going better.
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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,730
    Exactly. Uncooperative extended litigation = commercial suicide.
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