Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

flightnurse · October 2014

Mark interesting thought, and you are probably right, look at the 335i 300hp and torque, with the MPPK and MPE you are looking at 335-340hp easily and BMW is very conservative with their HP rating. The current M3/4 makes 425hp (but a recent dyno test shows the M4 making 435hp at the rear wheel) so if Audi where to bring a RS4 you would right to saying it would be 400+hp, more like 450hp and not from a V8, but from a V6.

I have not driven a new M3/4 yet but from articles they are some scary machines, the amount of power they make can be very over whelming, do cars of that size need more HP? Right now, the biggest issue BMW has with the M3/4 is getting the rear wheels to hook up.

And Mark if I had a M4 and drove it like I lived, I wouldn't have a license...

markcincinnati · October 2014

Flight -- even with the 333HP my S4 claims to have (which Motor Trend says is an understatement), I can only assume my time (to a speeding ticket) can now be measured -- at most -- in weeks.

Of course, with all the crazy people on I-71 North heading from Cinti to Columbus thinking 80MPH is a good place to START, well, there may be safety in numbers.

I can't seem to make this thing slow down -- I mean it seems that it keeps pushing me to go faster and the heck of it is, I'm too willing to abide.

I saw the Motor Week test report of the M3 -- talk about trying to control the wrath of gawd . . . . Even with the wider rear rubber the thing was wheel spin happy to the max.

I somehow doubt there will be an RS4 (or RS6) brought here -- the RS7 was, in my opinion, just a demonstration to show that Audi could bring a very high performance car to the US for what some see as a relative bargain. A higher output S4, well, that I am willing to bet will be brought here -- just like I'll bet there will be higher output "335's" brought here, too.

sweendogy · October 2014

@nyccarguy‌ ... "El cheapo" indeed. I like how this was written- honest and to the point. How many "enthusiast" have been duped. Wow

stickguy · October 2014

entry level (as in the title) does serve a purpose. If this is your first step on the ladder, nothing wrong with it. Say, coming from something like my 2007 Volvo (aka the "putt putt mobile") the 320 is still a seriously nice car. Is it the highest end? No, but it is cheaper.

you can pretty much make the same argument with the 328i. The 335 is faster/better, so if you aren't getting that, then you are cheaping out.

circlew · October 2014

All American Muscle - Not Entry Level however...

"The D" touted by Tesla Motors CEO Elon Musk is here, and it's a dual motor, all-wheel-drive sedan with mind-bending performance numbers.

The improvements build on the company's current Model S, offering better traction, more driving range and futuristic automated features. And some serious speed.

Model S sedans equipped with Tesla's 85 kWh battery pack and the dual-motor all-wheel-drive system will be able to go from zero to 60 miles an hour in just 3.2 seconds. That puts it in the same league as high-performance cars including the Porsche 911 Turbo and the Mercedes-Benz E63.

To reach those speeds, the cars will have three driver-selectable settings: "Normal," Sport" and "Insane."

brian125 · October 2014

Not to mention a very sharp looking vehicle. When this model can go further without a charge I may entertain buying one. I have been seeing more Tesla's on the road this past year here in the NY area. The Telsa S is not cheap either at almost 80k. Still not sure if its worth the money even if you could afford one.

The reviews are stellar.

sweendogy · October 2014

@brian125 what's the charge/mile figure that you would go for?
Problem I have with current car isn't range - it was RWD (I live up east , they fixed that) but always has been out the door price. Tesla does a nice job of telling you how much you will save in fuel and time and whatever- they also give you nice lease options and other financing tools- but 80-100k for the one I would want is way to much- even with the cool rear rumble seats that face like my dad's old caprice

brian125 · October 2014

I do agree with you about up here in the North East. RWD is terrible in winter months especially when you consider dropping this kind of coin. If you can afford to take it out of the garage for some pleasure driving 8 months out of the year that's fine. Last I looked the driving range was under 300 miles. That to me is unacceptable to travel around with a vehicle. Local driving this car is fine. I drive from NY to Myrtle beach 2 sometimes 3x a year. The Tesla wouldn't make it to M.D without stopping to charge up................ LOL.

Another problem is how many charging facilities are there through out the country. With pricing at 80k plus this vehicle is a toy for the rich and not for a family guy / most buyers .

When I was working this would of been a nice car to write off on a lease. Not now retired.

Below are the numbers on the 2013 model

Electric motor
310 kW (416 bhp), 600 N·m (443 ft·lb), Three-phase AC induction motor

Transmission
1-speed fixed gear (9.73:1)

Battery
60 or 85 kW·h lithium ion[4]

Electric range

85 kW·h
265 mi (426 km) (EPA)..................... is this even accurate?????
310 mi (500 km) (NEDC)
60 kW·h
208 mi (335 km) (EPA)
233 mi (375 km) (NEDC)

Plug-in charging

11 kW 85-265 V onboard charger for 1ϕ 40A or 3ϕ 16A [5] on IEC Type 2 inlet[6]
Optional "Twin Charger" for 22 kW for 1ϕ 80A or 3ϕ 32A[5]
Optional Supercharger for 100 kW DC offboard charging, adapters for domestic AC sockets (110-240V)

brian125 · October 2014

How about the Tesla Model X SUV. Is 70k worth a 95 mile range?

Base price: Currently unknown, but expected to be around $70,000.

Fuel economy: Unknown, but based on the Model S specs, expect a figure around 95 mpge from the 60kWh battery option.

Pros and cons: The Tesla Model X, expected out this fall, is the crossover to wait for if you want something truly different. In true Tesla style, it’s completely electric; it features falcon-wing doors that lift up and an all-wheel drive option that will make it the first production electric car to run on all fours; and it also has Tesla’s trademark 17-inch touchscreen center console. It has the usual EV drawbacks, though: limited range coupled with potentially long recharging times.

Options worth splurging on: It might come to the detriment of range, but the all-wheel drive model might be too good to pass up.

These vehicles are in the baby phases. Give this industry another 5 to 10 years with more research and cost cutting ways where most buyers can afford similar models like mentioned.

Tesla moved an estimated 4,600 Model S vehicles in the U.S. in the first three months of 2014 -- 1,600 in March and 3,100 in January/February. 11,000 vehicles have been sold to date this year.

The Nissan leaf ev leads all sales in the US with almost 22k units sold ytd. followed by the VOLT at 14k.

A post by a Tesla enthusiast compiling the ev-sales.blogspot.com numbers lists the total 2013 sales by European nation as:
Norway - 1986
Netherlands - 1127
Switzerland - 213
Germany - 204
Belgium - 148
Denmark - 112
Austria - 48
France - 19
Italy - 8

circlew · October 2014

True about the range issue and the "baby phase" of electric autos....but what a baby!

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/10/11/tesla-p85d-price-performance/17098819/

Most of the P85D's power is the rear. There, it will have a 470-horsepower motor. But unlike the current performance model, it adds a 221-horsepower motor in front.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2014

I priced out a fully optioned maximum, all you can buy Tesla during a test drive and it came out to just over $130,000. Maybe "entry-level" for the 1% ?

sweendogy · October 2014

@Mr_Shiftright‌ - right its not for the 1%rs. At that price level it's a comp to the s class- the standard.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2014

Hmmm...I don't think the Tesla is worth $130K at least not the current model. It's maybe worth the $75K level. Even the new "entry-level" C class Mercedes fully equipped, comes in at $62,000 and it's a match for the Tesla S at the moment, IMO--it even has more tech.

stickguy · October 2014

I was cruising the used car listings and the local Ford dealer has a used Tesla on their site (pictures showing it in the showroom). No price listed though.

roadburner · October 2014

As the Brits would say, I had a bit of a play with a Model S while driving a new 2015 X6 at the truck's international launch in South Carolina. The Tesla was pretty quick, but it seemed to slow and fall back the longer we "played"- don't know if that was due to the driver, the batteries, or some other issue.

sweendogy · October 2014

"IMO--it even has more tech." I guess that depends what "tech" is important. Tesla could be considered one of the best technological advanced companies ever- from production to completion. It's overpriced for sure - and maybe it shouldn't be a comp to the s class- but it's got plenty of tech --maybe not the best radio - any 4 door sedan that can get to 60 in 3.2 seconds and now has an auto pilot feature is pretty cool- oh and it fits 7 people and yes doesn't need gas or oil change.

flightnurse · October 2014

Tesla is all about technology, while I was in San Jose in March of this year, my niece took me her favorite hang out, a very upscale shopping and Dinning place called Santana Row in this place is a Tesla Boutique shop we have one here in Phoenix, but they are not allowed to talk price or lease payments, however, at Santana Row they can, in fact they offer test drives, so far San Jose has the most Tesla's I have ever seen on the road, as my niece says, "they are nice, but they are just another car now." We were able to take one for a test drive. we drove a Model S 85, it wasn't fully loaded and MSRP was cough $98K , walking from the store to where the cars are at, the employee (not too sure what her tile was) had the car starting to cool off for us. After 20 minutes of showing us how some of the feature work, the key fob was given to me, and I have to say, what an impressive key fob, it is weighted and looks like the car very impressive. The first thing you notice when you settle into the car is how low it is and how long it is. The car had 21" wheels so it rode a little on the rough side, and of course my tech geeky niece (she works for Sun Microsystems/Oracle) was playing with the center dash touch screen. As Sweeny said, Tesla could be (it really is) considered one of the best technological advanced companies ever. What can be said about elec motors that no one on this forum hasn't read about it, instead torque, scooting around traffic is not a problem, and if you drive it normal the car just purrs along. The car felt solid, but the closing of the doors didn't have the German feel when closing them. Leases are backed by Wells Fargo, and to lease this particular car it would have ran $1300/m with $7500 out of pocket, or purchase the car $1200/m with 10K down but with the 7500 federal tax credit really only 3K out of pocket. Tesla shows that one can build a pure elect car that is not boring and what the true cost of the car is without being subsidized my the motor-company.

If I could convince myself to spend $1200/m for a car I would get one in a heart beat, I love the design and the 265 miles range is not a problem, and I'm seeing more and more charging stations then ever before.

With the Model X and E coming school and the price dropping, who knows I might have one. The model E is to start at about 45K.

Between San Diego and Phoenix a long highway 8 one can see the charging stations and these are the supercharging station which can charge a Model S in under in 20 minutes half full these are free.. ,

Mr_Shiftright · October 2014

It might have "tech" but not the latest tech. It's really last year's cellphone already. There's no lane avoidance tech, no collision avoidance tech, no heads up display, no blind spot technology. You can have some of these features in a GMC Yukon and all of them in just about any luxury sedan built for 2015.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2014

Mr_Shiftright said:
It might have "tech" but not the latest tech. It's really last year's cellphone already. There's no lane avoidance tech, no collision avoidance tech, no heads up display, no blind spot technology. You can have some of these features in a GMC Yukon and all of them in just about any luxury sedan built for 2015.

I'm not sayin' Tesla CAN'T do these things--just that right now the car is no longer competitive.

sweendogy · October 2014

"I'm not sayin' Tesla CAN'T do these things--just that right now the car is no longer competitive. " you should read consumer reports about this car- or better yet go to the website.

Moderate this.....

qbrozen · October 2014

Its the Model 3, actually. (technically, 3 horizontal lines stacked on top of each other), and the projected base price is $35k. Although I'm sure reality will see it creep higher than that. I think your $45k number may be much close to reality.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2014

The car I test drove didn't have it and the salesman said it wasn't available yet. .
The Tech Package that I have listed is:

Turn-by-turn navigation with seven years of free map updates; Daytime LED running lights; LED cornering lights; Automatic keyless entry; Lighted door handles; Electrochromatic side and rearview mirrors; Power rear liftgate; GPS enabled Homelink; Memory seats, mirrors and climate control

From reading that blurb, it looks like the monitoring features are "forthcoming".

The sooner the better. Maybe here as we speak?

Actually, the Tesla doesn't have more than a dozen comfort and convenience features that are available in the comparably priced Mercedes S class 2014 model. And the interior isn't up to snuff with the German cars either.

Keep in mind that I test drove a showroom demo, so maybe a Tesla with updated features is now on the road---I don't know.

sweendogy said:
"I'm not sayin' Tesla CAN'T do these things--just that right now the car is no longer competitive. " you should read consumer reports about this car- or better yet go to the website.

Moderate this.....

sweendogy · October 2014

Tesla just had an event last week and added a bunch of new features in the sedan. That said- they have been around for less the what -10 years? Not 150 like mb - the term "tech" is different for everyone -

I would like to thank whoever flags my posts - I think I'm top 10 on Edmonds now.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2014

True, but Tesla didn't have to re-invent the wheel and go back to 1896. . It was all out there waiting for them. This is the Auto Industry 2015, not 1955. You have to be on top of your game every minute, because your competition is clever, fierce and relentless.

Not sure who is flagging your posts---not I. Perhaps you could check your PL (Politeness Level) and bring it up a bit for the other members?

Anyway, a Tesla really isn't apropos to this topic--I don't regard it as "entry-level" LUX. Optioned out, it's a pretty expensive piece of machinery.

sweendogy · October 2014

@Mr_Shiftright‌ - agree they didn't have to go back - they went forward-- the comp is taking notice for sure-and will be trying to copy the model- they have no show rooms - the cars most buy are direct ordered- both reducing costs. They have one of the most efficient assembly line of any product ever- they have no massive unions that have ruined some brands- no pensions of workers no longer on the books. The comp needs to pick up game- proof in stock prices- and reviews. If tesla sold a 50k car (with all the tech you crave) it would compete with the 3 series, no doubt- it's expensive because of the tech needed to roll this car.

I have an idea of who's flagging posts but don't really care I find it funny- I feel my "PL" is just fine- I find it hard not to look at facts when talking about cars- everyone has an opinion but its worthless without fact.

More on Musk / tesla here in a 60 mins piece from a while back.- I'm done talking tesla because off topic

http://youtu.be/34seeTzjNZk

Mr_Shiftright · October 2014

Well okay we'll let it rest and sit back and see when/if the company makes an actual profit. That after all, is the mark of a successful automobile company.

sweendogy · October 2014

Back on topic- In anti tesla style - I'm amazed how bad Infiniti has stubbed of late. For 2013 the "g" was retired but late in 2013 they announced they would keep the car and g label for another year and sold in 2014 a 2013 G as a new car. They never produced a 2014 G or Q? but for 2015 the old G will become they new Q40. http://www.infinitiusa.com/q40/ - on the website it's coming soon- but local dealers already have the on the lots and they are offering sweet deals. Could you market something worse - I don't think so.

markcincinnati · October 2014

The new TLX with SH-AWD ought to be the IT car right now in this class (and maybe on this forum). Content-wise, this (and from an actual cost, not MSRP basis, the Q50, too) ought to be setting the world on fire sales-wise.

Seems tho to not be of too much interest here. Once again, my wife and I looked at this car from a bang for the buck perspective (the TLX Advance V6 w/SH-AWD): What even comes close to the combination of features and alleged capabilities for the money?

Now, still NOT having driven one, perhaps the TLX just seems like an expensive Accord -- but on paper, it would seem not.

Further, it seems far enough UNDER $50K to merit "our" attention.

Of course the car magazines are just giving the thing the briefest of "test-reports" -- and I would say the reviews from the performance perspective are rather mixed, despite the recognition that there seems to be a lot of car for the MSRP.

What am I, what are we not impressed enough with -- the styling, the tinny sounding doors when slammed?

I have a regret, now that I think about it -- I wish, for a lousy $1,000+ bucks that I would have gotten the torque vectoring diff on my S4 (Audi's SH-AWD).

Any TLX SH-AWD owners or wanna be owners here?

Hello?

Is this thing on?

stickguy · October 2014

I recall reading somewhere recently that it is selling well, at least relative to what it replaced! And have seen some good reports. As always, have to filter the magazine stuff to get to what real people care about. And no, nit everyone here represents the "average buyer" for one of these (the same folks that by 320is and don't order the big engine sport pack models).

I have sat in one a few times, and really liked it. And to me it is attractive. Still haven't driven one, but from showroom testing, not confusing it with an accord, any more than an ES350 vs. a Camry XLE.

My guess is Acura never expected a better than 10% take on the AWD model anyway.

But we shall see. Supplies seem to be better now, so will be interesting to see how sales trend through end of the year.

stickguy · October 2014

Also, I kept meaning to question what gets counted here. To me, your S4 is not an ELLPS. That would be an A4, or a 328i. S4 to me us another class, along with the M3.

ab348 · October 2014

Regarding the Acura TLX: personally, the styling leaves me cold. Reports I have read are that it doesn't seem luxurious enough inside, with poor tech, and that the 9-speed autobox is not impressive.

graphicguy · October 2014

stickguy said:
Also, I kept meaning to question what gets counted here. To me, your S4 is not an ELLPS. That would be an A4, or a 328i. S4 to me us another class, along with the M3.

Stick....S4 is equivalent to a BMW 335i. Then again, it's equivalent to an Acura TL SH AWD that's a tad slower, too.

TLX is a nice ride. I compared the suspension to an E350 when I, test drove it. Tech is better than Mercedes, too. It's finished nicely and has great, premium materials, too. IMHO, it had the best stereo in the biz (ELS). Tranmission shifted quick and smooth enough you won't notice (similar to my E92 335i). Acura prgrammed the trans well. In sport, it will downshift almost telepathically.

It's not as quick as the S4 or the 335i, but it is quick.

sweendogy · October 2014

TLX seems like a nice car, seen a couple way better looking them old TL but nothing special- I can see how people would be turned off to acura front end. Performance numbers seem inline/ or better with the 6 with top tier comp. I don't think I would be looking soon and would prob look elsewhere if I was to look.

flightnurse · October 2014

I have yet to see a TLX, not just in Phoenix, but Seattle, Chicago, Miami, D.C and Charlotte. So far all the reviews have picked the 4 cyl as the model to get not the V6. Though I have seen lease ad's for the TLX with very low monthly payments. Now, I have seen many A3's on the road...

m6user · October 2014

Depends on where you go in Chicago area I guess. I've seen quite a few TLX in the north burbs.

Actually, the A3 is now the "entry level" Audi performance sedan. The ILX from Acura is supposed to get a makeover. It should because it hasn't been selling at all and powertrain vs. available content is the reason IMO. Can't get the bigger engine with auto and nav etc. Supposed to be something at the LA auto show as follows from cars.com.

"Acura, meanwhile, announced today it would unveil a "substantially new" 2015 ILX with a "potent new powertrain," updated styling and "substantially upgraded" cabin design."

stickguy · October 2014

good. it needs it. keep price the same and could be a big winner.

nyccarguy · October 2014

OK, so cruising the manufacturers websites to find one of these gems that would (theoretically) fit my needs:

2015 TLX SH AWD w/ Technology (they force the tech pkg w/ AWD - RATS!): MSRP $42,345

2015 TLX 2.4: (Just saved myself over $10K which buys A LOT of snow tires): MSRP $31,890

Audi: I don't think they offer the A3 with the diesel & quattro - NEXT!

Infiniti Q50 AWD: MSRP $39,855

BMW 328xd: (Xenon, Hot Seats, & HK Sound - no roof): MSRP $44,225

There's just nothing that jumps out at me and shouts: WOW! Got to have it NOW! I do really like the looks of the Q50.

m6user · October 2014

I've found that just having bought a new car(your Legacy) takes away a lot of the zeal of looking at new cars.

roadburner · October 2014

nyccarguy said:
OK, so cruising the manufacturers websites to find one of these gems that would (theoretically) fit my needs:

2015 TLX SH AWD w/ Technology (they force the tech pkg w/ AWD - RATS!): MSRP $42,345

2015 TLX 2.4: (Just saved myself over $10K which buys A LOT of snow tires): MSRP $31,890

Audi: I don't think they offer the A3 with the diesel & quattro - NEXT!

Infiniti Q50 AWD: MSRP $39,855

BMW 328xd: (Xenon, Hot Seats, & HK Sound - no roof): MSRP $44,225

There's just nothing that jumps out at me and shouts: WOW! Got to have it NOW! I do really like the looks of the Q50.

Same here, nothing used under $30k or new under $45k interests me in the slightest...

nyccarguy · October 2014

@m6user‌

That could be part of it, although I am a card carrying CCBA (Chronic Car Buyer's Annonymous) member:) Also the thought that I purchased instead of leased meaning there is no "end date" for me to check out "what's next."

I'm very content with the Legacy so far. Definitely not the fastest car on the road, but passes well & cruises nicely on the highway during my 6 day per week, 65 mile RT commute.

sweendogy · October 2014

@nycarguy glad you like legacy. How's the cvt?

Weird side note miss the old crock Dundee outback commercials of my youth.

nyccarguy · October 2014

@sweendogy‌

So far, so good. I'm a little over 1500 miles in. I just filled up the tank for the 3rd time. I think if I can get the stars to align, I might try for 500 miles on this tank.

The Legacy is a fantastic daily driver. The suspension is comfortable and very well tuned. The 175 horsepower is nothing to brag about, but it does get me up to speed.

I really like the CVT. If I wasn't such a car nut, I'd have no idea this wasn't a conventional automatic. The CVT is quite responsive and very smooth. It adds to the Legacy's overall character and refinement. I haven't had the traffic conditions to "wring it out" yet, but the car doesn't "beg" to be driven hard like my 328xi did. Good thing too. It seems like the CT State Troopers, the NY State Troopers, Local Stamford PD, & NYPD Highway 1 are stepping up patrols and speed traps big time.

brian125 · October 2014

nyc

I have been seeing a lot of Legacy's on the road lately. Sharp looking vehicle.

Passport 9500 ix radar detector will take care of a lot of your travel/ getting ticket problems.

What I like about this system is its Satellite Technology. Every time you mark a speed trap/ location on your system its updated and all passport 9500 detector's will learn/ store these spots across the country. One of the best Car investments I ever made.

sweendogy · October 2014

@brian125 - I'm a V1 guy- have one for 7 years and never upgraded it. The upgrade is expensive and just looking at V1 website makes me wonder if an upgrade is worth it or to jump to the new passport- looks like the reviews are great and the its close to my upgrade price for my old v1.

brian125 · October 2014

sweendogy

Any tickets with the V1? Last 5 years from MA. to SC I have had not one close call. The pop radar is the one that could bag us. Open roads, speed trap area's are no match for the 9500. Even your older unit works well.

sweendogy · October 2014

No tickets - but I'm not 100 all out all the time. I live up east- and know the roads I drive and where I can get away with a burst above 80.
Good to hear feedback on the escort- the v1 seems a bit, dare to say "old." Starting with the website to non-design changes.

I have mine hard wired, anyone know if the same telephone jack would work with a passport?

(Knocking on wood, no tickets continues)

stever · October 2014

A reporter is hoping to find BMW owners who might have models with recalled airbags (mostly '00-'06 3 Series.) Please email PR@edmunds.com if you are able to have a quick conversation with the reporter today.

brian125 · October 2014

@stever‌

Is the 2012, BMW X-5 on that list. I heard there was a big airbag problem with that one company

kyfdx · October 2014

stever said:
A reporter is hoping to find BMW owners who might have models with recalled airbags (mostly '00-'06 3 Series.) Please email PR@edmunds.com if you are able to have a quick conversation with the reporter today.

Hey! I qualify for that!

Kirstie_H · October 2014

kyfdx said:

stever said:
A reporter is hoping to find BMW owners who might have models with recalled airbags (mostly '00-'06 3 Series.) Please email PR@edmunds.com if you are able to have a quick conversation with the reporter today.
Hey! I qualify for that!

They'd probably love to talk to you since it's a "today" turnaround!

@brian125 - the company is Takata, I believe. Doesn't look like any 2012 models are affected: http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Press+Releases/Vehicle-owners-with-defective-airbags-urged-to-take-immediate-action

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