What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

slorenzen · March 2015

gagrice said:

slorenzen said:
BTW, Gary, when entering Oregon on I-5 northbound, about MP4 you start a long downhill run, with the speed limit posted at 55.

Watch your speed on that stretch.
Ask me how I know...
I think we will wander over to the coast North of San Francisco and take the scenic route. Add about a day of pleasant driving. I really hate driving the Interstates at 55 MPH. Unless it is raining then just take the shortest route.

A beautiful drive, for sure! As long as you account for the additional time required, it's a nice way to get up this way.

BTW, 55 isn't the normal speed on I-5, but in that area, they use it to add revenue to the coffers...

gagrice · March 2015

ruking1 said:
Here is a 540,000 miles tribute to GASSER durability.

(Fuelly.com lists 1999 Dodge Intrepid @ 19.1 mpg)

This Couple Drove A Dodge 540,000 Miles to Every County in the Lower 48
Alex Lloyd By Alex Lloyd
March 16, 2015 12:13 PM
Motoramic

https://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/meet-the-couple-that-drove-a-540-000-mile-dodge-intrepid-to-every-county-in-the-lower-48-161344757.html

However, it does beg the question, (similar mpg to MB GLK 350) how would 34.5 mpg be? (diesel) MB GLK 250 BT? That is 28,273 gals vs 15,652 gals . The gals SAVED (12,621) would let me log 435,425 miles MORE !!!!!

That is beyond any driving I can imagine in a Dodge Intrepid. I rented one about that model and took it back the second day for something else. My foot cramped up with the angle of the gas pedal. Same with a Dodge Durango. I wrote Dodge off my list and would not accept one as rental after those two times. He looks tall, I just wonder how he has survived that car so long.

I wonder if he plans to hit all the Islands. Chrysler should offer him any new vehicle he wants in trade. You just cannot get better advertising than that.

ruking1 · March 2015

Indeed !! I was really curious as to what maintenance protocols were followed. It can also be a Mopar PARTS PLUG !

I think in a lot of ways, I am till in the "TESTING" of diesels' durability, even after 350,000 miles. The upshot is I am pleased both on the diesel side and BRAND/s side.

It is no secret that I run 30,000 miles OCI's, extend air filter changes intervals, etc,
etc. So IF something like a Dodge Intrepid (not known for being reliable or durable) is "ROBUST"......THEN....

cdnpinhead · March 2015

ruking1 said:
/meet-the-couple-that-drove-a-540-000-mile-dodge-intrepid-to-every-county-in-the-lower-48-

The real question is how many transmissions they went through.

The Chrysler Corporation taught me to hate automatic transmissions, though I was cocked in that position to start with. They may be expensive to work on, but at least they fail regularly, especially in that era.

gagrice · March 2015

I noticed that as well. Original engine. No mention of the transmission, suspension etc etc.

ruking1 · March 2015

Indeed ! For me anyway, the A/B comparisons between Toyota/Honda and VW were eye opening. Honda (04 Civic in my case)for example goes FASTER through consumable parts ( tires, brake pads, rotors ,alignment, lamps, air, oil, cabin filters, etc., to name a few (than VW (03 VW Jetta TDI) @ like mileage. Since the majority of folks do not have nor make A/B comparisons AND most have Japanese branded vehicles, perceptions are based more on doubt/fear or what has been heard.

nyccarguy · March 2015

Anybody want to buy a vintage Mercedes Diesel?

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=06902&endYear=1985&fuelTypeGroup=DSL&showcaseOwnerId=569355&startYear=1981&makeCode1=MB&searchRadius=200&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=[MB[][]]&listingId=392719370&Log=0

fintail · March 2015

Nice car, hilarious price. It's worth a bit, but he's probably 50% optimistic.

"Mercedes-Benz Financial offers exclusive financing to qualified buyers. "

I can get maker-subsidized financing on something that old? Like 0.9% for 72 months or something? Hmm

nyccarguy said:
Anybody want to buy a vintage Mercedes Diesel?

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=06902&endYear=1985&fuelTypeGroup=DSL&showcaseOwnerId=569355&startYear=1981&makeCode1=MB&searchRadius=200&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=[MB[][]]&listingId=392719370&Log=0

ruking1 · March 2015

Given the results, its almost a no brainer that we STILL don't "get it" ?

Why Auto Makers Are Building New Factories in Mexico, not the U.S.
Array of Free-Trade Pacts Favors Mexico Over U.S. South as Site for North American Assembly Plants

By DUDLEY ALTHAUS and WILLIAM BOSTON
March 17, 2015 10:30 p.m. ET

http://www.wsj.com/articles/why-auto-makers-are-building-new-factories-in-mexico-not-the-u-s-1426645802?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories

ruking1 · March 2015

nyccarguy said:
Anybody want to buy a vintage Mercedes Diesel?

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=06902&endYear=1985&fuelTypeGroup=DSL&showcaseOwnerId=569355&startYear=1981&makeCode1=MB&searchRadius=200&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=[MB[][]]&listingId=392719370&Log=0

That MB is certainly one of the pieces of good news about mid 1980's TDI's. I bet it would run way better today using ULSD ! Just that fact alone drops emissions potential 97 % to 99 %.

gagrice · March 2015

Mexico’s low wages and improved logistics were part of the draw. But for Audi, which plans to ship the factory’s output all over the world, what tipped the scales was Mexico’s unrivaled trade relationships.

“Mexico had more than 40 different free-trade agreements,” said Rupert Stadler, Audi’s chief executive. The pacts give exporters from Mexico duty-free access to markets that contain 60% of the world’s economic output.

I thought we had a lot of free trade agreements. Guess not as many as Mexico. Our US friends in Mexico use their Mexican passport to countries where US citizens are NOT ALLOWED.

ruking1 · March 2015

gagrice said:
Mexico’s low wages and improved logistics were part of the draw. But for Audi, which plans to ship the factory’s output all over the world, what tipped the scales was Mexico’s unrivaled trade relationships.

“Mexico had more than 40 different free-trade agreements,” said Rupert Stadler, Audi’s chief executive. The pacts give exporters from Mexico duty-free access to markets that contain 60% of the world’s economic output.

I thought we had a lot of free trade agreements. Guess not as many as Mexico. Our US friends in Mexico use their Mexican passport to countries where US citizens are NOT ALLOWED.

On the surface of it, one can't accuse VW of not giving it the ole "college try". They dumped $7 B into the Chattanooga, TN, USA plant to make in America, for Americans, US Passat. I think VW will also try to build a small to compact CUV in this plant also.

Predictably, the auto unions having gotten voted out are going back to the time tested "squeeze the auto makers to death slowly" strategy that worked all too well in Detroit.

So for different reasons, VW's continue to offer tons of opportunities both in gassers AND especially diesels. Touareg's are still made in Slovakia and 32% of parts and 25% German parts. TDI engine from Hungary (Euro malaise ) with a Japanese AT. Jetta's are being "RE" contented AND made in Pueblo, Mexico. As is the new MLQ (as close to a full on Euro optioned as it gets) platform Golf.

While I have nothing to really compare it to, the 14 MB GLK 250 BT comes from Bremen, Germany, and 75% German parts. German AT, guessing 7 speed ZF? But I am very happy with it.

gagrice · March 2015

On the surface of it, one can't accuse VW of not giving it the ole "college try". They dumped $7 B into the Chattanooga, TN, USA plant to make in America, for Americans, US Passat. I think VW will also try to build a small to compact CUV in this plant also.

I have not driven the US made Passat. If they have dumbed it down to appeal to the US drivers, that could have backfired. People leaning toward German autos don't want mushy handling. So they do the comparison to CamCords and lose sales. I would say the TN plant was more political than practical. If they build the new CUV there it will be a second chance.

The labor unrest with UAW and ACE also could play a part. I don't think the local management want the UAW corrupting their workforce. The pressure was all from the unions in Germany. UAW workers are not really interested in a works council where the company and the union are a big happy family.

Audi building in Mexico had to be a huge blow for Made in USA. Audi sales are increasing faster than most of the auto industry. They beat out all the luxury competition last year over 2013 sales.
Audi up 15.2%
BMW up 9.8%
MB up 5.7%
Lexus up 13.7%
Other than final assembly of foreign made parts the US does not build any high end luxury vehicles. Even Caddies number one seller SRX is built in Mexico. Cadillac lost 6.5% last year in sales.

benjaminh · March 2015

The 2016 Acura NSX supercar (estimated msrp $150k) will be built in Ohio:

http://www.acura.com/FutureVehiclesNSX.aspx

The up to $58,000 msrp Acura MDX is built in Lincoln, Alabama. The Acura TLX is also built in Ohio, and the SH-AWD V-6 version with Advance package lists for c. $46k.

Back on topic, as some have mentioned the new 2015 Golf SportWagen diesel is a compelling package, esp for the price:

http://media.vw.com/release/944/

For $24,595 the SportWagen TDI offers a 6 speed manual, push button start, satellite radio, 16" alloy wheels, back-up camera, etc., etc. Plus it gets 43 mpg on the highway, and has about 30 cu feet of storage with the seats up, and about 66 with the seats flat. Here are some details on the engine from VW:

"The EA288 turbodiesel engine family is designated the modular diesel matrix, or MDB, and will form the basis for future U.S.-market Volkswagen diesel products. Just like the MQB platform, the concept is best understood by visualizing the MDB engine as a grouping of standardized modules available across the Volkswagen Group.

The EA288 is a 2.0-liter, four-cylinder turbocharged and direct-injection diesel engine, a thorough update from the previous unit. Despite the similarity in basic specifications, the only aspect that carries over from the previous EA189 unit is the cylinder bore spacing. The new engine produces 150 horsepower—10 more than before—at 3500 rpm, as well as 236 lb-ft of torque at 1750 rpm. This high torque output is another compelling argument for diesel engines, along with fuel efficiency.

The compact EA288 engine has the intercooler for its turbocharger system integrated directly into the intake manifold, which serves a two-fold purpose of increasing throttle response and performance as well as lowering emissions. The engine block is cast iron, with a forged steel crankshaft that runs in five main bearings and has four counterweights. In order to counteract engine vibration and maintain smooth operation, the EA288’s crankshaft is connected to two gear-driven counter-rotating balancer shafts that spin at twice engine speed. Friction has been reduced by about 15 percent in the engine, thanks to the use of roller bearings for the drivetrain side camshaft, increased piston-to-wall clearance, and lower piston-ring tension, among other measures.

The aluminum-alloy crossflow cylinder head has a number of unique features. First, the camshafts are integrated into a separated housing by a thermal joining process, ensuring a very rigid camshaft bearing while keeping the weight low. Second, each overhead camshaft operates one intake valve and one exhaust valve per cylinder (as opposed to one camshaft for intake valves only and one for exhaust), allowing for greater air delivery and swirl.

Like its gasoline-powered brethren, the EA288 Clean Diesel TDI engine places strong emphasis on thermal management, which is evident in the cylinder head’s two-section coolant jacket, as well as a three-part cooling circuit and switchable coolant pump. Compared to the previous engine, emissions are reduced by up to 40 percent, helped by siting the exhaust after-treatment module close to the engine and by the use of a low-pressure exhaust gas recirculation system."

ruking1 · March 2015

gagrice said:
On the surface of it, one can't accuse VW of not giving it the ole "college try". They dumped $7 B into the Chattanooga, TN, USA plant to make in America, for Americans, US Passat. I think VW will also try to build a small to compact CUV in this plant also.

I have not driven the US made Passat. If they have dumbed it down to appeal to the US drivers, that could have backfired. People leaning toward German autos don't want mushy handling. So they do the comparison to CamCords and lose sales. I would say the TN plant was more political than practical. If they build the new CUV there it will be a second chance.

The labor unrest with UAW and ACE also could play a part. I don't think the local management want the UAW corrupting their workforce. The pressure was all from the unions in Germany. UAW workers are not really interested in a works council where the company and the union are a big happy family.

Audi building in Mexico had to be a huge blow for Made in USA. Audi sales are increasing faster than most of the auto industry. They beat out all the luxury competition last year over 2013 sales.
Audi up 15.2%
BMW up 9.8%
MB up 5.7%
Lexus up 13.7%
Other than final assembly of foreign made parts the US does not build any high end luxury vehicles. Even Caddies number one seller SRX is built in Mexico. Cadillac lost 6.5% last year in sales.

Indeed on ALL accounts! The descriptions are really "CODE"!! You caught the distinctions drawn between the MORE "Euro" Golf MLQ platform, than a more "LIMITED" appliance- like US Passat (Camry/Accord/etc competition). In addition, VW "de-contented", the Jetta, supposedly to cut pricing,, ahead of the US Passat introduction !!! ??? Sure US Passat sales were "GREAT" ! However, how much worse could US Passat sales have been if they didn't dumb down the Jetta? Instead, it would seem to me VW has to dig themselves out of two holes, where ZERO existed before !! ?? I am not at all convinced this is German logic @ its finest !! ??

gagrice · March 2015

The only thing Toyota has to compete with the Passat diesel is the Camry Hybrid. And the Camry is more expensive comparably equipped. The Passat has a bit more interior and trunk space than the Camry. So not sure other than past reputation for reliability. Yet Toyota had a real rash of problems as well. I guess it will take time to educate the car buyers.

stevedebi · March 2015

gagrice said:
On the surface of it, one can't accuse VW of not giving it the ole "college try". They dumped $7 B into the Chattanooga, TN, USA plant to make in America, for Americans, US Passat. I think VW will also try to build a small to compact CUV in this plant also.

I have not driven the US made Passat. If they have dumbed it down to appeal to the US drivers, that could have backfired. People leaning toward German autos don't want mushy handling. So they do the comparison to CamCords and lose sales. I would say the TN plant was more political than practical. If they build the new CUV there it will be a second chance.

...

My wife drives a US Passat. The handling is excellent. The big changes are it is a lot longer in the back seat (42" legroom back there), and has a "US Spec" front seats, which means wider to accommodate US body styles (and I'm not talking cars here - people body styles).

slorenzen · March 2015

"... and has a "US Spec" front seats, which means wider to accommodate US body styles (and I'm not talking cars here - people body styles)."

Code for "WIDE LOAD"...

ruking1 · March 2015

I really do NOT mean to imply that the US Passat (didn't say it at all and said sales were GREAT) is NOT successful or is a lesser competitor in its' segment. Indeed it would be on my short list in that segment. (should I want/need to buy again IN that segment)

BUT on the other hand, given the knowledge and choice of the (more European) US market Jetta TDI and the (more US and de- contented) US market, Jetta TDI, I chose the former. I do understand that future Jetta MY's are not only being re-contented, and being improved.

ruking1 · March 2015

gagrice said:
The only thing Toyota has to compete with the Passat diesel is the Camry Hybrid. And the Camry is more expensive comparably equipped. The Passat has a bit more interior and trunk space than the Camry. So not sure other than past reputation for reliability. Yet Toyota had a real rash of problems as well. I guess it will take time to educate the car buyers.

In addition to faster wearing consumables, Honda's/Toyota's have a greater likelihood of head gasket and related issues. Much lesser severity are the greater oil consumption issues. Again, I am getting this from top notched indy Toyota/Honda mechanics.

Slow news diesel day. I filled @ a local indy @ $2.99 ULSD for 34 mpg (huge stop/go portions) . Other prices were $3.19 RUG, $3.29 MG, $3.39 PUG.

Interesting that 6/10 popular with CR readers are "CUV's"

https://autos.yahoo.com/news/most-popular-cars-consumer-reports-readers-173000797.html

A perspective on VW's N/A issues. (corollary: consumer's opportunities)

Volkswagen’s Big North American Problem
James Derek Sapienza MORE ARTICLES
March 18, 2015

http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/volkswagens-big-north-american-problem.html/?a=viewall

fintail · March 2015

Those "free trade" agreements in Mexico that the always politically biased WSJ pines about are likely the perks given by bought-off officials, just like in the oh-so free southeast which has bribed in automakers with palms greasing, and still has human development issues that don't make it look very first world. Combine low/no regulations, cheap easily exploitable labor, and bribes, and it's the C-level's dream come true, no matter the price.

German style unions will never work in the US. Too much disparity in pay and accountability from workers vs management from one place to the other. One society is generally more cooperative and hasn't been gutted by suits as much as the other.

Oh, the US-built C-class has had TONS of little issues since it was launched, many due to low quality locally sourced supplier parts. Read any MB forum. Running to cheap labor can have side effects. If we ever get the diesel, and it doesn't have a "W" VIN, I will likely not be as interested. All of this money saved, it doesn't go to the consumer, it goes to the executive, who do so much.

Audi sales are increasing, but they still lag in many markets, and I bet the average transaction price (and likely margin) is lower. The brand has a huge history of quality issues, along with its VW parent, good luck to it running to cheap labor and parts.

gagrice said:
On the surface of it, one can't accuse VW of not giving it the ole "college try". ressure was all from the unions in Germany. UAW workers are not really interested in a works council where the company and the union are a big happy family.

Lexus up 13.7%
Other than final assembly of foreign made parts the US does not build any high end luxury vehicles. Even Caddies number one seller SRX is built in Mexico. Cadillac lost 6.5% last year in sales.

gagrice · March 2015

Fintail:Audi sales are increasing, but they still lag in many markets, and I bet the average transaction price (and likely margin) is lower. The brand has a huge history of quality issues, along with its VW parent, good luck to it running to cheap labor and parts.

Audi had all those previous problems with over paid German labor. I don't think the cost of labor is relative to the quality of labor. My Mexican built 1993 Chevy 3/4 ton 4X4 and 1998 Suburban were both built in Mexico. They were better than my 1990 GMC built in Canada and my 2005 GMC built in the USA. I don't know anything about the people in Slovakia that build the Porsche Cayenne and built my Touareg. I do know it is better quality than my US built 2007 Sequoia. I don't buy the idea that an assembly plant worker is worth $100k or more a year as was the case before the crash. I also have a problem with multi million dollar paydays for executives when a company is bleeding red ink. That is why I am for letting the free market decide which cars are good and which ones should end up on the scrap heap. A good example of cheap labor doing an exceptional job are the iPhones and all smartphones. I don't think you could set up a factory in the USA and get that quality of work. Finding a town with 250,000 people willing to work 12 hours a day for any wage in this country would be impossible.

ruking1 · March 2015

On the other hand, some of the CRAPPIEST (unreliable, not durable, overpriced parts, horrid depreciation, overpriced repair labor, etc. ), CARS (i.e., MB')s are the overpriced med to ultra high end MB models, built by OVERPRICED German LABOR !! This is not just a recent trend. It has been true for @ least 48 years that I have been driving.

gagrice · March 2015

ruking1 said:
On the other hand, some of the CRAPPIEST (unreliable, not durable, overpriced parts, horrid depreciation, overpriced repair labor, etc. ), CARS (i.e., MB')s are the overpriced med to ultra high end MB models, built by OVERPRICED German LABOR !! This is not just a recent trend. It has been true for @ least 48 years that I have been driving.

When I was selling my MB Sprinter RV in 2007, I was offered a Mercedes S600 with V12 in partial trade. It was very clean and drove nice. Our friend Fintail said to avoid as that engine was problematic. Not to mention the car was longer than our Lexus and would be a car we did not need. Glad I waited till we had a cash buyer. My brother in law was just down for a week from Washington. He has a CLK230 coupe his wife just had to have. He is one to work on all his many cars. He hates the Mercedes as it is not home shop friendly. Said it is in the shop in Seattle more than the garage at home.

Bottom line the Germans are still the only decent vehicles with diesel offered in the USA. So that is what we have to choose from.

ruking1 · March 2015

When we focus on US market diesels (drive train also), both VW (Porsche, Audi, etc.,) and MB (BMW also) have done a GREAT job! My diesel experiences (350,000 miles) have been relatively maintenance and trouble free.

Do the "Japanese" oems have the potential to MATCH or exceed "German" diesel products? CLEARLY! The fact that they haven't yet tried/succeeded, speaks volumes ! OF topic and probably TMI, Japanese diesels have not done well on the European diesel markets.

So I guess if I could get a "frankenstein" dream, it would be German oem US market diesels with added Lexus/Toyota reliability and durability.

Even more clearly, that is a VERY VERY TALL order !! It is an order that seems to be one the German oems have not mastered across their lines.

gagrice · March 2015

Of the German cars, Porsche seems to have the best reputation for reliability. Hopefully that will be the case with the sister to the Porsche Cayenne, the Touareg.

On the fuel front, headed up the coast to see the flowers of Carlsbad. Which happens to be where the cheapest diesel in the county is sold. Shell selling at $2.69, while they still are getting $3.15 for RUG. A 46 cent spread is good for me.

http://www.sandiegogasprices.com/Shell_Gas_Stations/Carlsbad/162990/index.aspx

Also having the best fish tacos in the county and probably the WORLD.

ruking1 · March 2015

..."On long hauls, the EcoDiesel still returns head-shaking fuel economy; I've seen 28 mpg on mostly short hauls around Los Angeles. Sure, my enthusiasm is dampened a bit by the differential between the cost of diesel and gas, but fueling stops are infrequent enough to ease the pain."...

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/oneyear/trucks/1503_2014_ram_1500_ecodiesel_outdoorsman_crew_cab_4x4_review_update_4/#__federated=1

Purely my .02 cents, but is it in the job specification to be an auto journalist, the absolute inability to USE a cheap crackulator? ... ah,...Dude...!

(fuelly.com puts the 15 RAM 3.6 L gasser @ 19.35 mpg, the 5.7 L V8 @ 9.4 to 17.2 mpg RANGE)

Of course diesel per mile driven is WAY more expensive !!!!

This guy is a candidate to take Jen Psaki's job !

ruking1 · March 2015

LOVE fish taco's !!!

On the 12 VW Touareg TDI @ app 54,000 miles, ZERO reliability issues !!!!

gagrice · March 2015

Not sure when he wrote the article. Diesel has been less than RUG for well over 6 months in So California. Unless he picks the most expensive stations for diesel and compares to some cheapo gas station. Around here the cheapest on average is ARCO, and so far the best around town mileage. Next Shell & 76, With Mobil giving me the worst mileage on 2 tanks full. Today will fill with Shell as it is only 4 cents higher than ARCO close by. And I get my 3% AMEX with Shell. ARCO is Cash or debit only.

ruking1 · March 2015

Due to the smoke and mirrors way of doing business and communication, I guess I should say when I quote the prices for ULSD, the rest of the RUG, MG, PUG prices are @ that SAME station.

I am really liking the app Gasbuddy.com ! One can really route ones plan, plan ones route AND/or serendipitously take advantaged of inexpensive fuel.

It is almost nutty to think with the TDI Touaregs range and mpg, I can literally go from (2,928 miles) SF Bay Area, CA to NYC, NY. on 3.5 tankfuls (call it 4) of ULSD.

stever · March 2015

Too bad about all that fallout in the fish.

It's clean and green, but don't ask what's in new diesel fuel (bizjournals.com)

There is a ton of dealer profit riding on FCA's Wrangler decision (autonews.com)

ruking1 · March 2015

I disagree! Another slew of ADVANTAGES: diesel !

(one easy historic one, 6/7 years of NO (SUB) $10.00 gasoline !!! This despite top priority goals and efforts of getting it there !)

I think a lot of the "arm chair" environmentalists who would be AGAINST something like this, don't ask the question: what would be better drilling a small hole 7,500 miles in the middle of no where to get oil and transporting it any number of times to any number of places or literally taking the LOCAL stuff you would normally have to pay to clean up and turn it into a useful product?

(local diesel HPR $2.89, app 10 cents cheaper, my guess is the 1% mandatory
("diesel" ) requirement makes it way more expensive than it has to be)

WASTE products from ongoing processes are almost perpetual supplies ( I hate this word "SUSTAINABLE" ) for (something like) HPR diesel !! HPR is also ZERO ppm sulfur, aka., don't need to REMOVE sulfur!!! They should also get tax credits for (in effect) performing local to more local environmental clean up services, as part of HRP diesel production !!!!

Too bad they don't further lobby for up to B 100 engine specifications standard/s !!!! NOT doing that economically limits GROWTH and defacto competition. In there can be lower costs, economies of scale AND for consumers even LOWER prices!

(this reveal was done in Sacramento, aka, CA state legislative capital, CARB, EPA, etc.,)

Diesel fuel from specific algae strains? Indeed the question is more like where DOESN'T algae grow???? LOL how about B 100 from free range chickens?

Truthfully, the list goes on and on and on and on! Did I say the list goes on?

There is an interesting compare and contrast for the various diesel engines configurations, I-4, I-6, V-6, V8., not to mention specific sized engines.

One can also put in turbo, twin turbo, super charger/turbo combinations, Lately, the electric turbo is being developed.

fintail · March 2015

You confuse assembly quality with engineering dogma. German luxobarges don't become money pits because of highly paid hourly labor, they become money pits because of German engineering theory - why use 3 moving parts when 75 will do, etc. They also become money pits because much of the tech is bleeding edge, and the lucky new owner gets to beta test it. If you want to see what will be on normal cars in 15 years, look at a new S-class now. Those issues are not because of assembly quality issues like a crooked nameplate or misaligned trunklid. And even with those issues, they sell as fast as they can be built, so someone is doing something right.

Fun crazy distraction against first world living wage labor though, good try. I don't know what you see as "real", maybe better if I leave it unsaid

At least you had the sense to buy diesel - a German one or two or three, too!

ruking1 said:
On the other hand, some of the CRAPPIEST (unreliable, not durable, overpriced parts, horrid depreciation, overpriced repair labor, etc. ), CARS (i.e., MB')s are the overpriced med to ultra high end MB models, built by OVERPRICED German LABOR !! This is not just a recent trend. It has been true for @ least 48 years that I have been driving.

fintail · March 2015

I know an indy mechanic who won't let those things park near his shop. Those old V12s were so overdone and undertested, that they became problem children, fast. I wouldn't take one for free, unless it was in showroom condition with its many Achilles heels addressed.

CLK230? Those weren't sold on this continent. Might be a CLK320, that's a 10+ year old model that might not be aging well. Turn of the century was a dark age for MB, many troublesome models, only a few bright spots. Only one diesel sold here then, the relatively uncomon W210 300D,

gagrice said:

When I was selling my MB Sprinter RV in 2007, I was offered a Mercedes S600 with V12 in partial trade. It was very clean and drove nice. Our friend Fintail said to avoid as that engine was problematic. Not to mention the car was longer than our Lexus and would be a car we did not need. Glad I waited till we had a cash buyer. My brother in law was just down for a week from Washington. He has a CLK230 coupe his wife just had to have. He is one to work on all his many cars. He hates the Mercedes as it is not home shop friendly. Said it is in the shop in Seattle more than the garage at home.

Bottom line the Germans are still the only decent vehicles with diesel offered in the USA. So that is what we have to choose from.

fintail · March 2015

Again, confusing issues caused in assembly for those caused in design. Line workers don't create engineering failures. They might install a window wrong or make a dash rattle, but they don't cause what ailed Audi.

Comparing sweatshop labor assembling products with few moving parts and relatively few parts in sum (like phones) to assembling cars might not be apples to oranges, especially if comparing first world vs kleptocracy standards.

Free markets? Those don't exist. Not with preferential aid, tax policy, bribes, etc.

The first world has evolved past people needing to work 12 hours a day in factories that located because a crooked public official granted a regulation-free permit (with palms greased). Going to that is regressive.

gagrice said:
Fintail:Audi sales are increasing, but they still lag in many markets, and I bet the average transaction price (and likely margin) is lower. The brand has a huge history of quality issues, along with its VW parent, good luck to it running to cheap labor and parts.

Audi had all those previous problems with over paid German labor. I don't think the cost of labor is relative to the quality of labor. My Mexican built 1993 Chevy 3/4 ton 4X4 and 1998 Suburban were both built in Mexico. They were better than my 1990 GMC built in Canada and my 2005 GMC built in the USA. I don't know anything about the people in Slovakia that build the Porsche Cayenne and built my Touareg. I do know it is better quality than my US built 2007 Sequoia. I don't buy the idea that an assembly plant worker is worth $100k or more a year as was the case before the crash. I also have a problem with multi million dollar paydays for executives when a company is bleeding red ink. That is why I am for letting the free market decide which cars are good and which ones should end up on the scrap heap. A good example of cheap labor doing an exceptional job are the iPhones and all smartphones. I don't think you could set up a factory in the USA and get that quality of work. Finding a town with 250,000 people willing to work 12 hours a day for any wage in this country would be impossible.

ruking1 · March 2015

fintail said:
You confuse assembly quality with engineering dogma. German luxobarges don't become money pits because of highly paid hourly labor, they become money pits because of German engineering theory - why use 3 moving parts when 75 will do, etc. They also become money pits because much of the tech is bleeding edge, and the lucky new owner gets to beta test it. If you want to see what will be on normal cars in 15 years, look at a new S-class now. Those issues are not because of assembly quality issues like a crooked nameplate or misaligned trunklid. And even with those issues, they sell as fast as they can be built, so someone is doing something right.

Fun crazy distraction against first world living wage labor though, good try. I don't know what you see as "real", maybe better if I leave it unsaid At least you had the sense to buy diesel - a German one or two or three, too!

ruking1 said:
On the other hand, some of the CRAPPIEST (unreliable, not durable, overpriced parts, horrid depreciation, overpriced repair labor, etc. ), CARS (i.e., MB')s are the overpriced med to ultra high end MB models, built by OVERPRICED German LABOR !! This is not just a recent trend. It has been true for @ least 48 years that I have been driving.

No, actually you are confused. Since those MB luxobarges are normally built IN Germany, not in other "third world" countries and almost 100 % build by (overpriced) German (Euro) labor what about THAT math confuses you?

Indeed, a lot of your response/s makes a good and strong case for much cheaper labor and a lot of places overseas, ...like they are now ! The luxobarges' MASSIVE depreciation (in effect) SEVERELY discounts the over priced (German) labor. Or, perhaps as you well know, [non-permissible content removed] world view called for a lot of conquered nations labor.

So this is probably how "exclusivity" works, at least in the car markets. So IF there are a small number of customers willing to over pay... HEY those are them nickels !!!

But yes @ least you had the good sense to lease @ least one diesel.

On a more serious level, there are a load of reasons why I am happy with the MB GLK 250 BT.

IF MB wants to build a (great- in my opinion) compact CUV with ((overpriced German) labor with German engineering (hot, reliable and durable) 2.1 L twin turbo, great 7 speed A/T AND have ( projected ) LOW depreciation AND pay the US market "chicken tax" and @ a favorable US $D to Euro exchange rate, and be minus -$500 CHEAPER than like-model gasser, and be (hopefully) reliable and durable @ prices paid, etc., AND probably great resale prices.... and allow for fuel sipping vs gobling.(34.5 vs 20 mpg) @ (the very ) least, they got this one model right !

So really, it is about the "boxes" (probably left off a lot) being checked off. VW of course normally does that with "other than" German labor and by default location.

Sort of why I like Scotches and Cognacs and CA red wine

. Or why "three buck Chuck" trumps a lot of FINE French wine.

So ask me if I like $2/3 dollar ULSD or $8/9 dollar Euro diesel? Judging by your choice ( this time) of a gasser MB over your last diesel MB (just in time for par RUG and higher PUG) , I can guess your answer.

gagrice · March 2015

It is almost nutty to think with the TDI Touaregs range and mpg, I can literally go from (2,928 miles) SF Bay Area, CA to NYC, NY. on 3.5 tankfuls (call it 4) of ULSD.

I don't think I could ever go back to a vehicle like the Sequoia with only a 350-400 mile range. Two trips to Indiana I filled the Touareg 3 times along the way and had plenty for running when we arrived. So much peace of mind not having to look for a decent station out on the Interstate. We have used GasBuddy at least two years. The NAV in the Sequoia was useless finding gas. Invariably the station no longer existed. You figure the NavTeq data was about 5 years old when we got the vehicle new. With GasBuddy depending on local people to keep it up to date, it is a great tool for the traveler.

gagrice · March 2015

By the way the trip up the coast to Oceanside was beautiful. The flowers were in full bloom at Carlsbad. The Fish tacos were as great as always. Stopped at the Shell station with diesel at $2.69 to fill up. It tripped off at 18.53 gallons which I thought was great for over 500 miles. When we take off my wife says this is not right. It was exactly $50. That station cuts off AMEX at $50. Oh well, I will be filling before I leave in April for Oregon. I will watch for that in the future.

fintail · March 2015

Nope. I'll wager an awful lot I have more experience with the brand than you or anyone else on this thread. As I said, the issues that are "real" in your reality are both a price one pays for being on the bleeding edge, and also exaggerated to some degree. Not seeing these troublesome things dead on the roadside. Like this being true for your 48 years on the road - please tell me about all the unreliable MBs from 1967 or 1974 or 1985 etc etc. I won't hold my breath. And none of the cars with issues have those issues caused by first world labor - it's goofy engineering. But I will wager that if you built them in the less developed areas which affluent oldsters somehow pine for, that they wouldn't have less issues than today - not to mention that they wouldn't sell, as part of their perceived value is being built in a high skill location.

No issues suffered by the brand are from first world labor being paid living wages in developed areas. None. Claiming so is either deceptive, or ignores realities about manufacturing, engineering, or economics. Take your pick. Cheap labor doesn't solve any problem other than how the guillotine class can buy a larger yacht.

[non-permissible content removed], now? Almost like Godwin's Law. Makes me wonder.

Maybe if I was a somehow affluent Federal retiree, I could buy a few new diesels - but why buy a quickly depreciating asset when you can get the same use out of it for less, and enjoy the best years, then walk away and do it again? Modern cars aren't made for long term holding, enjoy new while you can, these are the good old days - especially for diesel, which the guilted greybeard hypocrite eco-weenie set will probably ban before I hit retirement age. I hope to have another sometime.

$8 Euro diesel subsidizes social goods (infrastructure, transit) that result in a better quality of life than is enjoyed by most Americans. Randroids would hate it.

ruking1 said:

No, actually you are confused. Since those MB luxobarges are normally built IN Germany, not in other "third world" countries and almost 100 % build by (overpriced) German (Euro) labor what about THAT math confuses you?

Indeed, a lot of your response/s makes a good and strong case for much cheaper labor and a lot of places overseas, ...like they are now ! The luxobarges' MASSIVE depreciation (in effect) SEVERELY discounts the over priced (German) labor. Or, perhaps as you well know, [non-permissible content removed] world view called for a lot of conquered nations labor.

So this is probably how "exclusivity" works, at least in the car markets. So IF there are a small number of customers willing to over pay... HEY those are them nickels !!!

So ask me if I like $2/3 dollar ULSD or $8/9 dollar Euro diesel? Judging by your choice ( this time) of a gasser MB over your last diesel MB (just in time for par RUG and higher PUG) , I can guess your answer.

stever · March 2015

Ha, I'll have you know my beard is completely white.

Over the pond:

Emissions testing firm highlights ‘issues with diesels’ (airqualitynews.com)

"Andrew Grieve, an air quality expert at King’s College London, said analysis of the cloud showed that up to 90% of the pollution was generated in European cities, much of it “stale diesel” from traffic."

UK issues health warnings as smog cloud spreads across Europe (theguardian.com)

ruking1 · March 2015

stever said:
Ha, I'll have you know my beard is completely white.

Over the pond:

Emissions testing firm highlights ‘issues with diesels’ (airqualitynews.com)

"Andrew Grieve, an air quality expert at King’s College London, said analysis of the cloud showed that up to 90% of the pollution was generated in European cities, much of it “stale diesel” from traffic."

UK issues health warnings as smog cloud spreads across Europe (theguardian.com)

Perfectly good reasons to continue to run and advocate UNMITIGATED emissions traffic: i.e., shipping, trains, air, defense, construction, mining, agriculture, business, coal power plants, which in the US provides app 50% of electrical power. I am sure I left out many others.

In the shipping case, they run bunker oil @ app 25,000 ppm sulfur. Purely on ULSD standards (15 ppm) it is fine @ 1667% greater ppm sulfur???????? Or as a practical matter (5/10 ppm sulfur) more like 2,500 to 5,000% more. If ALL they do is allow B100 @ less than 1% ppm sulfur (reality can be ZERO) 25,000 % MORE !!

Are you still attracted to the notion that my 2003 Jetta TDI single handedly caused all the pollution in the greater LA metropolitan area, while being domiciled 400+ miles to the north?

Of course, the underlying and defacto assumption are RUG/PUG causes ZERO emissions AND have health giving properties . Ah,... OK !!!! Most fairy tales start out: once upon a time.... I guess the ones on the left go: this aint no S--- you should be scared to DEATH.....

The same science gave us the world is FLAT. Large parts of CA coastal cities should be under water! Bacon is BAD! Coffee is BAD ! Eggs are BAD!

F/F to 2015 earth is round, NOAA gives CA 1 year max of potable water! Bacon is GOOD, Coffee is GOOD! Eggs are good ....

fintail · March 2015

Sounds like a temperature inversion, not much different from what happened in Paris not long ago. Historical precedent makes it hard for me to embrace British intelligence

Still no audible move to cull stinky old commercial vehicles out of the vehicle population here or there, I guess it wouldn't be "business friendly" or similar nonsense. I suspect with those things gone, some indicators would improve significantly. Almost every visible offender I see is an old pickup or box truck.

stever · March 2015

Seems pretty widespread over the continent. France reduced speed limits, resulting in 10,000 tickets being issued. Lots of revenue generation, cough, cough. (theweathernetwork.com)

ruking1 · March 2015

stever said:
Seems pretty widespread over the continent. France reduced speed limits, resulting in 10,000 tickets being issued. Lots of revenue generation, cough, cough. (theweathernetwork.com)

Ah, the real reason! Who dah thunk !?

fintail · March 2015

Europe isn't *that* big though, it is more than feasible for a strong high pressure dome to build over much of the area - stagnant air and an inversion with constant commerce taking place underneath will create some brown air.

I am sure safety was the reason for those tickets, not revenue. Or so the people rolling around in the dough will tell you. Kind of applicable to much of the movement in general. Profits generated via false/contrived guilt.

gagrice · March 2015

Forget pollution the EPA is on to bigger and better things.

If you like your shower, you probably can’t keep it once the Obama administration bureaucrats are done.

Nobody can altogether escape regulations, not even when bathing in the altogether. The Environmental Protection Agency denies wanting to compel us to shorten our showers, but that’s like President Obama denying you will lose your current doctor under Obamacare.

EPA is funding research to create hotel guest monitoring systems so the front desk can track your shower time and water usage. It’s the scariest thing since Hitchcock staged the deadly shower scene in “Psycho.”

The next step could be a water-use surcharge on your room bill.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/18/ernest-istook-epa-showers-the-people-with-unwanted/

stever · March 2015

People shower too much and wash off too many "essential" oils anyway. I forget, is that Rev. Mooney's paper?

ruking1 · March 2015

..."And none of the cars with issues have those issues caused by first world labor - it's goofy engineering. But I will wager that if you built them in the less developed areas which affluent oldsters somehow pine for, that they wouldn't have less issues than today - not to mention that they wouldn't sell, as part of their perceived value is being built in a high skill location.

No issues suffered by the brand are from first world labor being paid living wages in developed areas. None. Claiming so is either deceptive, or ignores realities about manufacturing, engineering, or economics. Take your pick. Cheap labor doesn't solve any problem other than how the guillotine class can buy a larger yacht.

[non-permissible content removed], now? Almost like Godwin's Law. Makes me wonder. "...

Not only are you WRONG (there is a labor component), if not, you should be totally @ peace with foreign labor, which you (more than a few times demonstrate) are snooty about. ALONG with goofy engineering. The deception is harbored by you, not me. You are wearing psychedelic rose colored glasses, when it comes to the MB brand old and new. Peace out, as you do the "waiting for godot" retired federal worker search. As one song goes "it ain't me babe".

But no, if they gave me a Fed pension , I wouldn't throw it away. Hey S/S gives out $ M's to 1,000's of 100+ year old folks when the reality is there are WAY fewer actual 100+ year olds.

gagrice · March 2015

I think it now belongs to Amazon. The EPA shower bit is all over the news today. A diversion by the WH I am sure. We don't take long showers as it wastes water. But we are in the minority in CA where we waste a billion gallons a year on every golf course.

ruking1 · March 2015

gagrice said:
I think it now belongs to Amazon. The EPA shower bit is all over the news today. A diversion by the WH I am sure. We don't take long showers as it wastes water. But we are in the minority in CA where we waste a billion gallons a year on every golf course.

Under Governor MoonBeam, almost ALL major Metro areas to some municipalities are adding new construction!! SF, LA, SJ, are only a few recognizable examples. CA State also supports unregulated and illegal immigration. Indeed so called credible estimates put CA 30 M folks to more like 70 M in 2050. I am looking forward to the" Jen Psaki explanation" on how this SAVES water!

For ALL the water CA should have been saving due to existing water saving regulations the NOAA sayz CA has app 1 years worth of potable water left.

Again,(like you say) it is follow the TAXATION. (CA) Hotel taxations are app 57 % higher, higher than any local sales tax. So IF room monitoring water meters are required, any penalties/fines due to so called "OVERAGES" can be easily popped to your check out fees and @ independently HIGHER %'s.

What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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