What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

gagrice

stever said:

lol, I'm DEF to your arguments.

You been sniffing too many RUG fumes.

stever

- if you go to my link, @ahightower makes a good comment about factoring in resale value.

xwesx

ruking1 said:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-11-09/u-s-gasoline-falls-to-2-9421-gallon-in-lundberg-survey.html?cmpid=yhoo

$2.94 AVG ( of 2,500 stations ) RUG

CA hosed !!

Those CA prices are still $0.50 cheaper than here.

stever

Is it as dire up there as the headlines seem to say @xwesx? Oil glut, royalties way down, lots of school layoffs, yada yada. Looks like you may be in for a few years of "bust" before the next boom.

Cheap gas should stoke tourism but those aren't oil dollars.

xwesx

I haven't heard much about the job impacts yet, but royalties are definitely WAY down. State government is going to get a real nasty eye-opener over the next couple of years. And, whether it affects tourism in a positive way really depends on how the prices move in Canada. I'd say the biggest impact of the oil prices over the last decade are on "independent" tourists.

You know, the ones like your brother! Nowadays, coming across out-of-state RVs on the highways is fairly uncommon. Fifteen years ago, they formed caravans behind which we were all piled up and fuming.

Ah, well, I didn't mention that I *missed* those days, now did I?

nyccarguy

I would second what @ahightower said. Look at the lease numbers set by VW Credit (accoding to our host @Michaell):

2015 Passat 1.8T: .00038 money factor (0.91%), 51% Residual Value, $3000 Lease Cash

2015 Passat TDI: .00107 money factor (2.57%), 59% Residual Value, $0 Lease Cash

Now VW credit is obviously pushing the lease cash, & cheap money factor on the gasser because it isn't selling as well.

stevedebi

gagrice said:

stever said:

"The gasoline versus diesel question is one of those math problems that doesn't have a fixed answer. As of today our 2014 Volkswagen Passat TSI is beating the pants off the TDI version. But six months ago it was the other way around in my neck of the woods."

2014 Volkswagen Passat TSI: Currently Kicking the TDI Diesel's Butt

Is the gasser REALLY kicking butt?? I think not. If we are generous and give the Passat TSI the benefit of the doubt on getting 28 MPG that is 11.3 cents per gallon. A low average for the hundreds of Passat diesel owners proud enough to post on Fuelly the average is over 40 MPG. That is a cost of 9.2 cents per gallon. Or $1387 per year for diesel with 15k miles driven. Or $305 per year less in fuel at that price spread. Last year this date the price spread here was only 30 cents per gallon. By May of this year I was paying less for diesel than gas. I could cherry pick a scenario that pays off the Passat TDI in a year or 20 years. That still would leave the poor sucker with his 1.8L wimpy Passat struggling up the long hills around here. And having 3 times the service intervals

Our 2014 Passat TDI SE is costing 9.49 cents per mile over the first 10K.

40.94 average MPG.

ruking1

stevedebi said:

gagrice said:

stever said:

"The gasoline versus diesel question is one of those math problems that doesn't have a fixed answer. As of today our 2014 Volkswagen Passat TSI is beating the pants off the TDI version. But six months ago it was the other way around in my neck of the woods."

2014 Volkswagen Passat TSI: Currently Kicking the TDI Diesel's Butt

Is the gasser REALLY kicking butt?? I think not. If we are generous and give the Passat TSI the benefit of the doubt on getting 28 MPG that is 11.3 cents per gallon. A low average for the hundreds of Passat diesel owners proud enough to post on Fuelly the average is over 40 MPG. That is a cost of 9.2 cents per gallon. Or $1387 per year for diesel with 15k miles driven. Or $305 per year less in fuel at that price spread. Last year this date the price spread here was only 30 cents per gallon. By May of this year I was paying less for diesel than gas. I could cherry pick a scenario that pays off the Passat TDI in a year or 20 years. That still would leave the poor sucker with his 1.8L wimpy Passat struggling up the long hills around here. And having 3 times the service intervals

Our 2014 Passat TDI SE is costing 9.49 cents per mile over the first 10K.

40.94 average MPG.

Yup, that is app what the 09 Jetta TDI is doing, 41 mpg.

( .09 cents per mile driven: fuel, @ $3.69 ULSD)

I absolutely LOVE the torque (OVER like model GASSERS) in the mountains !! I just did the SOS/DD Zero to 7,380 ft. (MB GLK 250 BT) There were VERY few cars in the mountains, after 3 cities choke commute points, posting 38 mpg !!! 35 mpg on the total UPGRADE LEG !! Gorgeous weather and ROAD conditions. It was worth the MINUS - 3 mpg !!!

gagrice

My V8 Sequoia was not a slouch out on the highway. It still downshifted to 4th gear on many mountain climbs. Just so rare that the Touareg goes from 8th to 7th. The only indication is the tach kicks up a few hundred RPM. Never again for me. That is what I told the VW salesman. Gas is for the uneducated masses. If VW would bring their Amarok TDI PU to the USA, I would trade in my Nissan Frontier. It is relegated to the 2-3 mile grocery and dump runs. Only have 2500 miles on it the last 12 months. Still under warranty.

fintail

It looks like I might not be a diesel driver indefinitely, with a bad money factor for E Bluetec right now. To get me to buy/lease a diesel car, we need competitive rates - a gasser with identical MSRP etc is like $150 less per month. I don't drive enough to make it worth that much. I must have found my Bluetec at the exactly perfect time.

elias

there is no arguing with the Michigan math, gagrice.
the same math is why i traded my final diesel years ago for the 87-octane chevy cruze M6 gasser (34 mpg avg) .

diesels are great if you have extra money to spend!

ruking1

elias said:

there is no arguing with the Michigan math, gagrice.
the same math is why i traded my final diesel years ago for the 87-octane chevy cruze M6 gasser (34 mpg avg) .

diesels are great if you have extra money to spend!

Then we would hope that you are fully enjoying that product. If I were inclined toward getting another Chevrolet product, it would be either a Impala or some iteration of the 15 Corvette.

ruking1

elias said:

there is no arguing with the Michigan math, gagrice.
the same math is why i traded my final diesel years ago for the 87-octane chevy cruze M6 gasser (34 mpg avg) .

diesels are great if you have extra money to spend!

For sure Chevrolet has not figured out how to $$ price the diesel Cruze ($9,100 MSRP OVER the gasser), or that is to achieve the desired intent (take back even higher gasser market share)

stever

Weird pricing today. Gassed up for $2.59 and the same station had diesel last week for $3.39. Today it was $3.59. There's news about it, but no real explanation why. (truckinginfo.com)

Ah, this trucker.com article blames it on an “anomaly” in the Midwest. But I moved months ago.

ruking1

VW future tech to include 10-speed DSG and electrically-driven turbos
By Viknesh VijayenthiranPublished November 12, 2014

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2014/11/12/vw-future-tech-to-include-10-speed-dsg-and-electrically-driven-turbos/

Constant improvement?

..."Headlining the list is a new diesel engine that displaces just 2.0 liters but churns out 268 horsepower. No torque figure has been mentioned but insiders have suggested around 370 pound-feet or more is possible. VW also reiterated plans for a 10-speed DSG dual-clutch transmission."...

The real kicker remaining to be seen is BETTER than 30/42 EPA mpg !! ?? WILD given 57 % GREATER torque.

Since the (much heavier) MB GLK250 BT has 225 hp and 369 # ft of torque, IMAGINE 268 hp/370 # ft on a much lighter ( MINUS -750 #'s +) Passat, Jetta, Golf !!! It makes me wonder what will be the latest and greatest A/T transmission?

nyccarguy

Check out this http://autoblog.com/2014/11/12/2015-audi-a3-tdi-challenge-feature-review/ A3 TDI getting mucho MPG!

stever

Ah, that wonderful feeling of wondering where the next filling station is. Kind of surprised about all the driving in neutral. Probably illegal, and, as the commentators over on Auto Blog note, the mileage should have been better if they'd left the motor running on the downhill sections.

xwesx

Ahah! MB Metris

A van with a diesel engine.... I could look twice at this vehicle if it does end up coming to our shores next year. Of course, we're looking at pricing in the mid 50s, most likely, but hey, I'm good with that. Lightly used examples should be available before too long and I could stomach buying one after that initial 25% depreciation.

ruking1

stever said:

Ah, that wonderful feeling of wondering where the next filling station is. Kind of surprised about all the driving in neutral. Probably illegal, and, as the commentators over on Auto Blog note, the mileage should have been better if they'd left the motor running on the downhill sections.

To me, that is the MOST versatile thing across the mpg bandwidth about turbo diesels. HOWEVER one wants to drive the cost per mile driven fuel is normally better, in addition to better mpg (like model) .

Michaell

xwesx said:

Ahah! MB Metris

A van with a diesel engine.... I could look twice at this vehicle if it does end up coming to our shores next year. Of course, we're looking at pricing in the mid 50s, most likely, but hey, I'm good with that. Lightly used examples should be available before too long and I could stomach buying one after that initial 25% depreciation.

I don't think it will be that expensive ... it's smaller than the Sprinter, and that starts in the high 30's to low 40's.

But, I suppose anything is possible.

nyccarguy

Slow diesel news day:

Total # of DPPC (Diesel Powered Passenger Cars) seen on this AM's commute:

1 - Passat TDI SE

qbrozen

hmmmm... interesting on the benz van. Wonder if they'll offer a true family version with RES and all other luxo options. Considering a comparable van from Honda/Yota/Chrysler is over $40k, I think $50k is quite easily possible. Problem is, will such a vehicle as RWD work for most families? I know my wife wouldn't go for it.

ruking1

Yes, most of the customization issues are probably OFF TOPIC, even as the diesel power train is probably the best, given the options. LOADS of complex issues here.

Here is an interesting take on lower GAS prices.

http://news.yahoo.com/govt-tells-us-drivers-used-cheap-gas-050813195--finance.html

A quick and dirty per CENT ( MINUS -.01) is closer to $1.39 B per year in consumer savings (i.e., can spend on other things besides FUEL). The nexus here is the diesel side can make those numbers anywhere from 30 to 60% BETTER. It obviously does not come close, being as how the diesel population is VERY small (albeit, less than 5% and less than 2.5% diesel CARS.) Talking heads (posted before) on CNBC put a .01 cent move freeing up $ 1 B.

https://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/motor-trend-names-the-volkswagen-golf-gti-its-2015-car-of-the-year-144337593.html

Part of VW GOLF family's Motor Trend CAR of the YEAR being the DIESEL option?

Mr_Shiftright

Oh big deal. I could regularly broach 700 miles in a 1980s Mercedes 300D. This is progress?

To be fair, it had a larger gas tank no doubt, but still......

nyccarguy said:

Check out this http://autoblog.com/2014/11/12/2015-audi-a3-tdi-challenge-feature-review/ A3 TDI getting mucho MPG!

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

Oh big deal. I could regularly broach 700 miles in a 1980s Mercedes 300D. This is progress?

To be fair, it had a larger gas tank no doubt, but still......

nyccarguy said:

Check out this http://autoblog.com/2014/11/12/2015-audi-a3-tdi-challenge-feature-review/ A3 TDI getting mucho MPG!

Well, I think you have to ask the question, why they got rid of it in the first place?

So for example Gagrice and I have 26.4 gal diesel tanks. So with 29 to 35 mpg, the range can be between 766 miles to 924 miles. While both of us SEEM to like it and see it as an advantage, who else really cares?

houdini1

ruking1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Oh big deal. I could regularly broach 700 miles in a 1980s Mercedes 300D. This is progress?

To be fair, it had a larger gas tank no doubt, but still......

nyccarguy said:

Check out this http://autoblog.com/2014/11/12/2015-audi-a3-tdi-challenge-feature-review/ A3 TDI getting mucho MPG!

Well, I think you have to ask the question, why they got rid of it in the first place?

So for example Gagrice and I have 26.4 gal diesel tanks. So with 29 to 35 mpg, the range can be between 766 miles to 924 miles. While both of us SEEM to like it and see it as an advantage, who else really cares?

And who else really matters?

houdini1

Mr_Shiftright said:

Oh big deal. I could regularly broach 700 miles in a 1980s Mercedes 300D. This is progress?

To be fair, it had a larger gas tank no doubt, but still......

nyccarguy said:

Check out this http://autoblog.com/2014/11/12/2015-audi-a3-tdi-challenge-feature-review/ A3 TDI getting mucho MPG!

I had a 1978 240D and to be even fairer it had a whopping 62 HP & 79 ft.pounds of torque. The 1981 300D was a little more powerful at 83/120.

Even at that, the 240D would cruise at 80mph all day long...It just took a while to get up to speed.

xwesx

qbrozen said:

hmmmm... interesting on the benz van. Wonder if they'll offer a true family version with RES and all other luxo options. Considering a comparable van from Honda/Yota/Chrysler is over $40k, I think $50k is quite easily possible. Problem is, will such a vehicle as RWD work for most families? I know my wife wouldn't go for it.

The pricing estimate I threw out is based on pricing conversion of the "V-class."

Yes, I will note that the information I read indicated that the focus for MB initially is as a cargo and people mover, albeit smaller than Sprinter (which I see everywhere, BTW!). Indications were that they may move toward offering an upscale version similar to the European V-class depending on how the market reacts to the more base options. RWD and AWD was mentioned for these initial offerings, and RWD is something that is completely absent from the "mini-van" segment.

For me, though, a "non-luxury" people mover (eg., seats and windows), AWD, diesel... I'll definitely take a look at it. Vans have always been my favorite vehicle configuration. And, I think an FE rating above 30 highway goes without saying on a vehicle this size.

stevedebi

stever said:

Ah, that wonderful feeling of wondering where the next filling station is. Kind of surprised about all the driving in neutral. Probably illegal, and, as the commentators over on Auto Blog note, the mileage should have been better if they'd left the motor running on the downhill sections.

It is in fact illegal to coast in CA. Hopefully nobody will pick up on their article... or care.

ruking1

Here is an interesting take on the "operational cost" of a Tesla

https://autos.yahoo.com/news/life-tesla-model-tires-cost-more-fuel-does-122101181.html

This is the FIRST article I have read that ACTUALLY details how many KWH's used over XX,XXX miles, so you can get a COST per mile driven fuel, once you know how much your utility company will charge (PLUS penalties) per KWH. CA should take a hint from those states. The electrical rates literally hose consumers and businesses.

So in my case, against the commute 09 Jetta TDI, tires are .004 cents per mile driven tires ( $400/100,000 miles). Fuel prices are on par (given the rates I would have to pay). This is not to mention that for COMMUTING, the Tesla costs 3/4 times MORE.

Mr_Shiftright

Arguing about a Tesla S's "economy" is pointless. You have a cap cost of over $100,000 dollars for gawd's sake. You'd have to drive to Neptune and back to pay that off.

Put yourself in a perfectly nice VW TDI (hardly a vehicle relegated to the "dirt poor") and you are $75,000 ahead at the starting gate.

Ain't no Tesla ever gonna catch *that* Rabbit.

And secondly, at least gasoline companies compete with each other. Your utility company? Monopoly.

As the late great Lenny Bruce used to say about the telephone company monopolies (back when they really were monopolies), "oh, you don't want to buy phone service from us? Fine, here's two dixie cups and some string".

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

Arguing about a Tesla S's "economy" is pointless. You have a cap cost of over $100,000 dollars for gawd's sake. You'd have to drive to Neptune and back to pay that off.

Put yourself in a perfectly nice VW TDI (hardly a vehicle relegated to the "dirt poor") and you are $75,000 ahead at the starting gate.

Ain't no Tesla ever gonna catch *that* Rabbit.

And secondly, at least gasoline companies compete with each other. Your utility company? Monopoly.

As the late great Lenny Bruce used to say about the telephone company monopolies (back when they really were monopolies), "oh, you don't want to buy phone service from us? Fine, here's two dixie cups and some string".

In my locale (the Tesla plant is LITERALLY UP the road) , an owned solar power installation (it is currently impossible for me to get one) would cost $30,000, aka, not from the monopoly as the "monopoly" is considered a "franchisee" by my "municipality, aka the franchisor ." So @ current ULSD prices $3.69 per gal /$30,000 =8,130 gal x 41 mpg= 333,333 miles/15,000 miles per year = 22.22 years of commuting.

gagrice

xwesx said:

Ahah! MB Metris

A van with a diesel engine.... I could look twice at this vehicle if it does end up coming to our shores next year. Of course, we're looking at pricing in the mid 50s, most likely, but hey, I'm good with that. Lightly used examples should be available before too long and I could stomach buying one after that initial 25% depreciation.

I think I could like a van like that. If the Touareg has a negative it is size. We have to pack light compared to when we went in the Sequoia and Suburban. A van with that 2.1 Mercedes diesel will be on the list to check out. Looks like it may be bigger than what we would like at 202 inches.

The Metris, sold globally as the Vito, has been a mainstay in Mercedes' lineup since 1996. The latest version, manufactured in Vitoria, Spain, is 202 inches long, about the same as the Dodge Grand Caravan. Slotted under the Sprinter van, it is expected to help Mercedes increase its U.S. van volume to around 50,000 units per year. The Sprinter is on track to sell close to 23,000 units in the United States this year.

stever

Got gas tonight at Walmart/Murphy's. Regular was $2.59. Diesel was $3.58. Biggest differential I can recall ever seeing (someone mentioned an even wider spread elsewhere on the forum the other day).

I never think to check the Premium price but even there, the spread is significant. Some talking head claimed gas would be below $3 a gallon all next year. Not taking bets on that one.

@gagrice, that's a lot more Sprinters getting sold than I would have guessed. Mostly commercial vans then conversions? And yeah, the Metris is kind of big. Our Quest was smaller than the Grand Caravan but roomier than the Mazda5. Chop a foot off the Quest and it would be pretty good.

Although I crammed (barely) a loom in the Grand Caravan today that would have been too wide for the Quest. Piece of cake in a Metris I bet. :-)

gagrice

ooops

ruking1

Here is a 411 on what is probable and what the US markets probably might NOT get.

VW's New Electroturbodiesel Motor Makes 268 HP, Could Deliver 60 MPG
33,87917
tommcparland
Tom McParland

http://carbuying.jalopnik.com/volkswagens-new-diesel-motor-makes-268hp-could-get-up-t-1657874426

gagrice

Let's hope VW can get it to pass emissions in the US. They have a couple nice looking vans that would be great here. Not to mention the Amarok and the Tiguan.

ruking1

I think the CUV segment (S/M/L) will be one of the main tools that VW will probably use a LOT to chase Toyota in the perpetual race to being the #1 world wide auto maker. To the extent mpg is a factor in that race, the diesel engine has the nod in the CUV mpg department. Americans tend to like the higher HP/Torque with the BEST mpg. Diesels also get the torque nod here.

It is probably not lost on any oems that the US market had a banner 2014 year and the next 3 my's are a time to "make hay". China and the rest of the world will probably be challenging pieces of the puzzle also.

stever

VW needs a pickup too.

ruking1

I filled after the Up grade leg ( local + 211 miles+ high desert miles) for 35 mpg for $3.57 ULSD with a .20 cent grocery discount. The DOWN grade leg posted 41 mpg (212 miles). The road, traffic and weather conditions both legs, were excellent sans a few traffic construction delays.

Down OFF the mountain from 7,385 ft for app 90 miles was posting 50.7 to 51.6 mpg !!!! Well that was easy to cure in the lower altitude portions ! So my best guess R/T SOS/DD is 38 mpg.

ruking1

stever said:

VW needs a pickup too.

I think it took Toyota 10 to 15 years to recover from their PU introduction ! The press had a field day with that fiasco for a LONG time. They had to sink a couple of $ B to build a TUNDRA plant in TX.

This might be an easy lesson for VW to learn, unless they have a PU truck somewhere else on the planet they can DRAFT for introduction into this market. FORD/GM/Dodge will eat em for appetizers if they do not go all in, TX's hold em style. BAD bet for my two cents.

What MIGHT work, ... the so called COMPACT truck segment. The diesel would be a natural for that segment.

elias

slow diesel news day as usual. so here's a throwback:
in 1995 i decided for sure to buy a diesel but didn't get around to it until 2001.
2002. In 1995, these were the prices at the local pump:
87 octane: $0.87
on-road/taxed diesel: $0.48

yes folks that's 87 cents per gallon vs 48 cents per gallon. 20 years ago.
that was a real diesel advantage. under a dollar for either fuel, in 1990s dollars... a nice contributor to the booming economy back then....

today temperatures in the 20s remind me of the diesel disadvantage in frigid winter weather...
so sooooooo slooooooooow to warm up.

ruking1

elias said:

slow diesel news day as usual. so here's a throwback:
in 1995 i decided for sure to buy a diesel but didn't get around to it until 2001.
2002. In 1995, these were the prices at the local pump:
87 octane: $0.87
on-road/taxed diesel: $0.48

yes folks that's 87 cents per gallon vs 48 cents per gallon. 20 years ago.
that was a real diesel advantage. under a dollar for either fuel, in 1990s dollars... a nice contributor to the booming economy back then....

today temperatures in the 20s remind me of the diesel disadvantage in frigid winter weather...
so sooooooo slooooooooow to warm up.

Too funny !! Out here, we are PRAYING for snow !! The SOS/DD trip had GORGEOUS conditions: weather, road, traffic !! (aka, its a mountain ski area)

The powers that be MUST think us STUPID for now "cheaper" RUG/D2 (aka MASSIVE GLUT) given your 1995 quote. That was at least closer to the 1970's oil shortage abyss. (oil apocalypse) aka chicken little.

So let's see:

the world's oil supply drying up, circa 1995, closer to 1970's armageddon : RUG/D2 .87 cents/.48 cents.

There is SO MUCH oil on the markets and Europe is paying $ 8.00 UP per gal RUG/D2. !!!???? I just paid $3.57 per gal D2. (and here I am waxing nostalgic for $1.85 D2.????)

So if we FF to 2015/2016 MY's, seems to me if the oems want to get diesels to market, they will find ways to make the deals against the "cheaper" and much more prevalent RUG/PUG products (95% of the passenger vehicle fleet). It also promises to be ANOTHER banner US market auto sales year exceeding 16.5 M units !!

We get glimpses of how the MASSIVELY better mpg diesels are being withheld from the US markets. Be that as it may, it was an absolute no brainer to choose between a DIESEL that was MINUS -$500 less than its gasser like model AND that was WITHOUT RUG/PUG costing 81% MORE !!! . Advantage is still with diesels.!!!!!

To your 1995 (.48 cent D2) point, I would have loved to pay .0126315 cents per mile driven, fuel !!!! The 422 mile R/T (38mpg) would have cost $5.33. We can't have that, now can we?

stever

ruking1 said:

stever said:

VW needs a pickup too.

I think it took Toyota 10 to 15 years to recover from their PU introduction !

I dunno, my brother drove a Tacoma into the ground and then gave it to his youngest son who ran it until it really died. Then the son got another one. My brother switched to F-150s but the son now has two Toyota SUVs in his garage (his brother-in-law works at the Alabama Toyota engine plant but it was those Tacos that sold him on the brand.)

ruking1

stever said:

ruking1 said:

stever said:

VW needs a pickup too.

I think it took Toyota 10 to 15 years to recover from their PU introduction !

I dunno, my brother drove a Tacoma into the ground and then gave it to his youngest son who ran it until it really died. Then the son got another one. My brother switched to F-150s but the son now has two Toyota SUVs in his garage (his brother-in-law works at the Alabama Toyota engine plant but it was those Tacos that sold him on the brand.)

Well, the Tacoma IS the compact truck I spoke of !! ?? The Toyota T100 truck was the small "full sized" truck that morphed into the TUNDRA.

stever

Lots of people buy trucks. VW doesn't have one. So they have nothing to draw those people into the store and the spouses of those potential truck lovers don't get to look at Passats in the showroom.

VW does march to their own drummer and you can't argue with their profits. But I've heard at least one VW salesperson complain about what's missing in their showrooms.

ruking1

stever said:

Lots of people buy trucks. VW doesn't have one. So they have nothing to draw those people into the store and the spouses of those potential truck lovers don't get to look at Passats in the showroom.

VW does march to their own drummer and you can't argue with their profits. But I've heard at least one VW salesperson complain about what's missing in their showrooms.

I would not disagree that the US truck segment and market are one of THE main drivers ! Fully 75% of the PVF are large cars, ETC.

For VWA (America) I think it is probably all about current market share, which is app what, 2.5% down from what, 2.6% ? To put that into 16.5 M 2014 MY sales context, VW would probably be delirious with 14 MY sales of 412,500 PLUS units. (more is ALWAYS better, of course) VWA would probably be giddy to hit 6% market share as a shorter term goal.

You guys/gals @ Edmunds.com are probably the ones with both the eyes on the visionary issues (3 to 9 years ahead) and finger on the (industry) pulse than a consumer like me (one of a much BIGGER 16,500,000 buyers) .

Actual "consumers" car buyers are anywhere between MINUS - 3 to - 10 years BEHIND, buying a "NEW" car. So for example, I bought a "NEW" 2003 Jetta TDI that was designed many years before.

That was why I was a bit taken aback when you guys closed down the "I Hate SUV's, Why Don't You?" thread, given that CUV's (S/M/L) are the hottest and most competitive segment in the industry. I think even Edmunds wrote an article saying the CUV segment even overtook SEDANS. So while the US market VWA Passat (SEDAN) made in AMERICA was a hit, for what is "HOT", that platform should have been a CUV assembly plant. But as you know, VW A wanted a Accord/Camry, etc. competitor. Talk about fighting a new war with an old war business model.

So for another example, VW has how many CUV offerings that are hot? Again Gagrice and I, to name a few are outliers of outlers buying a VW CUV TDI?????

So for example, the US regulators have already long ago given a DEATH sentence to the F150 sized vehicle. VW has seen that writing on the wall DECADES if not generations ago. I think it no accident that VW has NO world wide P/U truck product. Needless to say the do have gobs of truck options, which are relatively unknown in US markets.

So I think it no accident a MB "Sprinter" product has slowly been carving out its niche turf, aka a Gretsky thought, skate to where the puck WILL be.

houdini1

stever said:

ruking1 said:

stever said:

VW needs a pickup too.

I think it took Toyota 10 to 15 years to recover from their PU introduction !

I dunno, my brother drove a Tacoma into the ground and then gave it to his youngest son who ran it until it really died. Then the son got another one. My brother switched to F-150s but the son now has two Toyota SUVs in his garage (his brother-in-law works at the Alabama Toyota engine plant but it was those Tacos that sold him on the brand.)

I am selling my 2002 Tacoma crewcab 4x4 157,000 miles today for $10,000. Just about what I paid for it 4 years ago. These things are practically indestructible.

VW has a very nice diesel compact P.U. (Amorak) that they sell all over the world, except here. It might be coming here in a couple of years. I know, how many times have we heard that !

ruking1

houdini1 said:

stever said:

ruking1 said:

stever said:

VW needs a pickup too.

I think it took Toyota 10 to 15 years to recover from their PU introduction !

I dunno, my brother drove a Tacoma into the ground and then gave it to his youngest son who ran it until it really died. Then the son got another one. My brother switched to F-150s but the son now has two Toyota SUVs in his garage (his brother-in-law works at the Alabama Toyota engine plant but it was those Tacos that sold him on the brand.)

I am selling my 2002 Tacoma crewcab 4wd 157,000 miles today for $10,000. Just about what I paid for it 4 years ago. These things are practically indestructible.

VW has a very nice diesel compact P.U. (Amorak) that they sell all over the world, except here. It might be coming here in a couple of years. I know, how many times have we heard that !

Right ! So,... IF:
VW corporate will/see fit to NOT, gussie up the (its') compact truck Amorak for US markets, (a 2005 concept, btw http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Amarok) , http://www.volkswagen-commercial-vehicles.com/en/models/amarok/gallery.html to th host's observation, what are the odds VWA to VW corporate will invest BILLIONS of $$'s for a concept to market (and for the bean counters, what that fully entails, ACROSS many countries) full sized truck design they know has already been given a (US market) DEATH sentence (aka higher mpg CAFE) and is virtually unsellable on the WORLD markets, just because I think that MIGHT be a good diesel idea ??? Keep in mind also there are not many oems in the compact truck competitive space either !!!

For my .02 cents, you don't have enough miles !!

An interesting side bar: not only does aluminum cost more per # than steel, ergo costs more to get to market, but uses WAY more energy ???? !!! That is left off the irony explanation of enviro cons talking heads.....

stever

ruking1 said:

Actual "consumers" car buyers are anywhere between MINUS - 3 to - 10 years BEHIND, buying a "NEW" car. So for example, I bought a "NEW" 2003 Jetta TDI that was designed many years before.

That was why I was a bit taken aback when you guys closed down the "I Hate SUV's, Why Don't You?" thread, given that CUV's (S/M/L) are the hottest and most competitive segment in the industry.

Very interesting insight about designs lagging - it's always a huge expense when a manufacturer messes up a design and has to do a mid-model refresh that they hadn't planned on. Maybe 3D printing will help speed that process up.

IDLSWDY just got too political.

One of the unintended consequences of cheap oil is that the shale and sands projects are hurting and shutting down. That's a plus for those who think that kind of production is bad for the land and water (vs the idea that high oil prices depress demand and have the same result).

While I'm digressing (lol, is every day a slow diesel news day any more?), saw RUG for $2.47 today.