What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

Exterior paints & interiors become TMI’s when they are kept beyond a normal 5/6 year time & 90,000 mileage frames. I have been very impressed with the 09/12 VW TDI’s non metallic & metallic paints & NON leather interiors (@ 120,000 miles/60,000 miles)

fintail

I got an indicated 20.9 mpg on an in-town drive yesterday, exacerbated by our lowest common denominator local driving skill, and ineptly managed traffic controls. This could be a fun game - instead of high diesel mpg, how low can we go?

ruking1

I’m thinking you are getting what are the defacto & real effects of professional & thoughtful traffic/circulation design ! ?

gagrice

ruking1 said:

Exterior paints & interiors become TMI’s when they are kept beyond a normal 5/6 year time & 90,000 mileage frames. I have been very impressed with the 09/12 VW TDI’s non metallic & metallic paints & NON leather interiors (@ 120,000 miles/60,000 miles)

I would be fine with non leather, if it was offered in the upscale models. I like putting sheepskins on vehicles to protect the seats and my legs in the summer when leather gets hotter than Hades. Finally a top of the line vehicle without a sun roof. The Equinox Premier is not offered with sun roof. I always hated paying for them when I never open or use them.

gagrice

gagrice said:

ruking1 said:

Exterior paints & interiors become TMI’s when they are kept beyond a normal 5/6 year time & 90,000 mileage frames. I have been very impressed with the 09/12 VW TDI’s non metallic & metallic paints & NON leather interiors (@ 120,000 miles/60,000 miles)

I would be fine with non leather, if it was offered in the upscale models. I like putting sheepskins on vehicles to protect the seats and my legs in the summer when leather gets hotter than Hades. Finally a top of the line vehicle without a sun roof. The Equinox Premier is not offered with sun roof. I always hated paying for them when I never open or use them.

My error the Premier with NAV does have a stinking sun roof. Oh well. Maybe I will use it to drive out across the desert at night shooting jack rabbits.

ruking1

I’ve no real data (anecdotal only) to back this up, but I’ve gotten a strong feeling, over (4 yrs) 60,000 miles that MB uses the “higher” quality NON leather over VW’s already high quality (180,000 miles) Does it make a SOTP’s difference? Truly, not that I can tell. Seat time has varied: 45 min to 1.5 hrs NORMAL commute, 3 to 9 hours LONGER to do 210 miles.

I also really have to say that using the backseat of a VW Touareg was a surprising positive component. I’ve used the MB’s (like sized competitor’s & mine) & there is almost no competition. Basically, each position (5) in the vehicle is a pleasure to ride & drive in.

I’m definitely a sheepskin fan, for a host of reasons.

I’m not a sunroof fan. Having to pay for one is insult to injury.

xwesx

I had a nice surprise on Friday.... The Bosch payment showed up in my mailbox!

ruking1

Cool! Just shoot pictures of the check, which deposits it to your account. Ain’t life grand?

I’m glad this way worked for you.

Woo hoo but,... too bad. VW Touareg 3 row seat T TDI. .https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2018/02/12/why-volkswagen-wont-ever-bring-its-new-flagship-to-america/#3521bd94680f

xwesx

ruking1 said:

Cool! Just shoot pictures of the check, which deposits it to your account. Ain’t life grand?

I'm not that brave yet. I did it the semi-old-fashioned way. I deposited it in an ATM.

andres3

You all probably forgot I used $500 goodwill card towards the TTS. The other $500 of goodwill was wasted by my wife. Then there was the $7K or so of restitution, that was just enough for it to make sense for us to sell the '15 VW Sportwagen TDI back to VW for NADA Trade-In value.

At only 19,000 miles, we probably were just broken-in for a diesel motor.

ruking1

The (2015) VW Sportwagen model TDI, both kept/keeps the best resale $ %, & had highest TDI engine taken % (85% I’ve read). With 19,000 miles, that’s barely 62% of a first oil change (50,000 Kms/31,068 miles)

kyfdx

ruking1 said:

The (2015) VW Sportwagen model TDI, both kept/keeps the best resale $ %, & had highest TDI engine taken % (85% I’ve read). With 19,000 miles, that’s barely 62% of a first oil change (50,000 Kms/31,068 miles)

If I had been more aggressive, I could have had a stick-shift for $18,500.... brand new, and with 0%/72 month financing. Right after they released them in... April? Just couldn't pull the trigger.

ruking1

To me, the stick shift has always been the way to go for diesels, even as (my) 3/4 diesel’s have been A/T’s. Great mpg, bargain basement pricing, Zero down, zero % for 72 months ? Anyone of the four would have been a easy trigger pull, for me! Best resale values on many counts? What else did you need to line up?

20/20 hindsight, $1,000 good will, getting most to all of one’s money back after driving it x # of miles? Priceless !?

kyfdx

ruking1 said:

To me, the stick shift has always been the way to go for diesels, even as 3/4 diesel’s have been A/T. Bargain basement pricing, Zero down, zero % for 72 months ? Anyone of the three would have been a easy trigger pull for me! Best resale value on many counts? What else did you need to line up?

Wasn't sure I wanted the car.. Black over black.. And, an S model, when I would have rather had an SE.
Plus, it was in the middle of the "fix", so I couldn't drive it. It had been sitting for close to two years. By the time they got it ready in a couple of days, they had figured out what they had... and, the deal was gone.

They also had a loaded Golf TDI, but also black/black. That was a more expensive vehicle, though, and doesn't have the resale of the Sportwagen.

I'm not crying about it.. Nice car, but I've had my car for almost eight years, so I'm obviously okay with it.

ruking1

I didn’t get that you were “crying about it”. I was curious, so I asked the ?’s. I’m glad you got the new car you wanted, almost 8 yrs ago.

Your story almost reminds me of a friends’ husband wanting the 2017/2018 4 series BMW & got the 2018.

kyfdx

ruking1 said:

I didn’t get that you were “crying about it”. I was curious, so I asked the ?’s. I’m glad you got the new car you wanted, almost 8 yrs ago.

Your story almost reminds me of a friends’ husband wanting the 2017/2018 4 series BMW & got the 2018.

Funny thing.. the "new" car I bought 8 years ago, was already 4 yrs old, at the time.

Other than that wagon, the only thing I've come close to pulling the trigger on, was a lightly used 2017 GTI, last summer. Oh yeah, I bought an Audi A3 TDI in 2016, but that was for the VW flip. Only had it 5 months.

ruking1

Congrats on not buying “new” !

I learned that lesson before buying a 1 year old 1970 VW Beetle. I then racked up 250,000 miles on it. The government then paid many for many of those miles to see the USA with it, sans AC. (oh the things we do for our country) I do know I should not have sold it, but the government moved me & would not have paid storage. But then .0032 cents depreciation wasn’t bad, given the force applied.

If one has/wants to buy new there are a few options to cushion the various blows.

andres3

ruking1 said:

To me, the stick shift has always been the way to go for diesels, even as (my) 3/4 diesel’s have been A/T’s. Great mpg, bargain basement pricing, Zero down, zero % for 72 months ? Anyone of the four would have been a easy trigger pull, for me! Best resale values on many counts? What else did you need to line up?

20/20 hindsight, $1,000 good will, getting most to all of one’s money back after driving it x # of miles? Priceless !?

The problem with the Stick-Shift was it was only available in the base S model. The SE has some nice upgrades. They did include push-button start on TDI base models though (not included on the gassers), so that's one of the nicest feature upgrades of going up to the SE (already included with TDI manual cars). Still, I like the Fender audio system a lot. The lack of a green house roof is actually a bonus to me.

Michaell

This is TDI to the max!

I read about these when they first came out, and was amazed by the torque number.

But, reading about the care and feeding of them ... uh, no way. Not even if it was filled with $20 bills.

ruking1

For sure, the V 10 TDI was the maintenance and repair dog! It also needed to lose about 1,000 pounds of weight. Truth be told, even at 4, 900 pounds it needs to lose even more weight. The real problem was there was no gasoline V 10 to compare. But if you compared that to a gasoline version and bypassed gasoline that would be fair. However as better models in both came along, you’d miss a lot.

So I have run both gasoline/TDI side-by-side and I have to tell you the majority of maintenance/repairs was on the gasoline side. (similar mileage) For me, reliability and durability (87, 91, 94, 95, 96) TLC’s have the higher priority over both fuel mileage and torque. Better fuel mileage & torque are really byproducts.

gagrice

Michaell said:

This is TDI to the max!

I read about these when they first came out, and was amazed by the torque number.

But, reading about the care and feeding of them ... uh, no way. Not even if it was filled with $20 bills.

I was in Prudhoe Bay when five of those Touareg V10 diesels started their around the World adventure. I was also there when the German broke the world record driving from Tierra del Fuego to the Arctic ocean in a Touareg V6 TDI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H62wSmwoKdU

ruking1

@ a 14,300 miles journey, I would not even change the Castrol oil. But I’d carry an extra ltr. Go diesel! I couldn’t help but noticed (@8:33) that they used the same tires that I used: Continental Cross Contact LX 20.

Will this BMW X4 SUV/CUV get a diesel option? https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/af3d573e-3158-348e-97ab-95da4be10d8c/ss_bmw-reveals-redesigned-x4.html

How about them Buick’s https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2018/02/14/gms-buick-scores-big-j-d-power-dependability-rankings/331235002/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=usatodaycommoney-topstories

ruking1

Audi engines TDI . https://youtu.be/hT4b9RL1Oro

ruking1

One real TDI draw is that, over all oem build standards have greatly improved. So to me, any “economical” buy has had a 250,000 miles “reality” for easily 3 decades. What is actually done with that information and build quality is another story.

Any car has “ consumables”. The quality and durability of the consumables markets oem/other might be another interesting subject.

So almost any new car now has 120,000 miles “major tune up“ cycles. So if you spend the money or DIY for the tuneup, it makes no sense to not go to 240,000 miles. As soon as that is accomplished, 240,000 to 250,000 miles can come rather quickly. Avg yearly miles are between 12,000 to 14,000 miles per year. 12 years old is the average passenger vehicle fleet number.

So for examples, I have had/have 32/33 mpg, 40/42 mpg/50 mpg, 36 mpg TDI’s. The gasoline examples consume far more product/s Gasoline cars I’ve taken past 120,000 miles have had more engine related issues than diesel cars & SUV’s/CUV’s. I’ve had 3 gasoline engine head gasket issues, for example. The 2003 VW Jetta TDI has 190,000 + miles on original brake pads & rotors.

Anyone can do the math on fuel over 250,000 miles. Would one rather get (like model MB 250 BT/350) 36 mpg or 23 mpg over 250,000 miles ? That is 6,944 gals, 10,870 gals. That’s 3,926 gals NOT consumed, or 196 barrels (20 gal gasoline per). The current PUG price (@ 3.49 for 3,926 gals) saves me $13,702.

The 3,926 gals SAVED figure bounces around. 36 mpg would give me 141,336 commute miles. @ 15,000 miles per year that is 9.4 years more years of commuting.

A yippee for the Mercedes-Benz GLK dependability! It was rated five out of five. https://www.yahoo.com/news/2018-vehicle-dependability-study-most-130008220.html
Anecdotally, I would agree with the JD Powers rating. No, they did not send me a questionnaire. I’ve received no money for 5/5 agreement!

ruking1

Starve the beast? https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-02-15/gas-taxes-aren-t-paying-the-bills-for-roads-anymore

gagrice

I have never owned a vehicle with 120k miles on it. I get tired of them long before that. This Touareg TDI with 47k in 4 years is a record for me. I have my appointment for the modification next Tuesday. Get a loaner to wander around Las Vegas. Will hit Costco, Sees candy and a couple gun shops. If they keep it too long we will go home and come pick up the Touareg the next day. All I am interested in is my cash and putting the Touareg on the market. Don't think trading is in the cards. They are talking $24k and I just will not sell that cheap. I can afford to keep it as long as I like and it does not cost me a fortune.

ruking1

Again, advantage diesel ! No matter what is chosen, or chosen for one, (miles, years, etc, etc.) TDI’s seem to trump (no pun intended) many to most other gasoline, gasoline/hybrid, EV, cars.

On the 2012 VW Touareg TDI, I took advantage of three (included, 10,000 miles) oil changes. So at approximately 32,000 miles, I had done one (almost 31,000 mile to 60,000 miles) oil change. If they hadnt indicate no fix, I would have 60/40 thought about keeping it. The $$’s amount proferred sealed the deal, especially since it fell under the IRS section 179 rules. But I have to admit, I was looking forward to at least 180,000 miles or 12 years.

gagrice

My main reason for wanting to sell the VW is the distance from the dealer, 75 miles away. I understand VW is extending the warranty. On what I have no idea. If the CO2 sensor fails again will it be covered? If the Def heater fails will it be covered? Both tied to emissions, which is supposed to be under warranty for a long time. I will ask when they do the modification next week.

ruking1

I can’t say I blame you, especially when you have the GM complex dealerships in town. Please let the board know what you find out.

Right now, I’m enjoying no payments on operational expenses: i.e., car insurance, less $92. NOT in the tank. The extra mileage is on the 03 VW Jetta TDI “beater” & the GLK 250 BT.

ruking1

The day after the so called “diesel gate” news hit the wires ( Sep 2015), I surmised it was part of “a/the bigger plan/s”. The evidence might now be trickling in. http://money.cnn.com/2018/02/16/investing/volkswagen-sales-january-record/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_latest+(RSS%3A+CNN+-+Most+Recent)

VW might be on track for 10.8 M + units in 2018.

It’s tempting to sell VLKAYVLKAF into the current strength/s.

xwesx

gagrice said:

My main reason for wanting to sell the VW is the distance from the dealer, 75 miles away. I understand VW is extending the warranty. On what I have no idea. If the CO2 sensor fails again will it be covered? If the Def heater fails will it be covered? Both tied to emissions, which is supposed to be under warranty for a long time. I will ask when they do the modification next week.

Yes, it would be good to know for sure. From reading the small brochure (the addendum to the owner manual), it looks like everything in the emissions system, as well as all powertrain components, are covered. However, I strongly suspect that all directly related, but not exactly powertrain or emissions components (such as wiring, harnesses, etc) might be excluded.

ruking1

I surely hope that a more robust emissions system for a 3.0 L T TDI gets into the VW Atlas with an 8 sp Toyota A/T. Now that would be a good drive train with power and butter smooth. They are not going to reach 30 mpg with the gas or gas hybrid systems. Hey diesel or a diesel hybrid are probably the ticket/s

gagrice

One down one check to go. Got the $1500 bribe from Bosch today in the mail. Will enjoy cashing it. Hope VW is quick with their check after the modification is done next week. Only a handful of used Touareg TDI Lux like mine for sale in the USA. All about $30k. I will have to think hard before dumping it for that. It is pristine perfect always garaged with 47k miles. Only a handful of Chevy Equinox Premier diesels in the country to choose from. Some are really deep discounted. Not sure why?

Michaell

gagrice said:

One down one check to go. Got the $1500 bribe from Bosch today in the mail. Will enjoy cashing it. Hope VW is quick with their check after the modification is done next week. Only a handful of used Touareg TDI Lux like mine for sale in the USA. All about $30k. I will have to think hard before dumping it for that. It is pristine perfect always garaged with 47k miles. Only a handful of Chevy Equinox Premier diesels in the country to choose from. Some are really deep discounted. Not sure why?

Because diesel is "persona non grata" in the automotive world?

But, better for you as you'll be in the market and can get that steep discount.

ruking1

Diesels certainly approach niche status. (5% of the pvf, 2015- 281.312 M )

One in the current markets has to like steep marketplace discounts! I also like it when zero down and zero percentage are offered.

Michaell

ruking1 said:

Diesels certainly approach niche status. (5% of the pvf, 2015- 281.312 M )

One in the current markets has to like steep marketplace discounts! I also like it when zero down and zero percentage are offered.

How many of them are heavy duty pickups, not passenger vehicles?

ruking1

Out of 14.0656 M, 7.0328 M, or app 50 % are light duty diesel trucks. It will be interesting what the BIGGIE 3/4 take rate will be when they all come in with the 150/1500 series diesel models.

gagrice

ruking1 said:

Out of 14.0656 M, 7.0328 M, or app 50 % are light duty diesel trucks. It will be interesting what the BIGGIE 3/4 take rate will be when they all come in with the 150/1500 series diesel models.

I am sure that had a lot of bearing on the auto makers hesitance to sell half ton diesels. That and strict emissions on lighter trucks. My Canyon is hardly a small PU truck. One thing I like is the turning radius seems really short for a 4X4. It turns sharper than my Nissan Frontier 2WD club cab. I watch 3/4 Ton PU trucks maneuvering into parking spots at Home Depot and am thankful GM finally offered a decent size PU with diesel. When I get the Snugtop on it may be all I need. It will be great for Costco shopping trips. Life is good in Nevada, no smog checks, no CRV rip-off and of course I can go shooting out in the desert without any hassles.

ruking1

Is the Prius (gasoline hybrid) and its competitors in trouble? https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/efa2af40-776b-3bb6-96af-e535572ef7ae/ss_tesla-week:-toyota-prius-out.html

As they convert to battery EV’s, Americans (greater %) are about to experience the massive energy losses @ all levels (aka converted to $$’s) to power theiR EV choices: i.e., 315 miles advertised but app 40% loss (-minus 189 miles) in real world. Aging of the batteries exacts range of miles losses.

In addition, (I’ve it on anecdotal evidence) one needs a city permit ($500.) & licensed electrician ($500.) to install 1 240V charger. This installation increases the buildings taxable value. This will buy me one yr of commuting ($1,000 @ $2.73 per gal= 434 gal * 36 mpg= 15,652 miles)

GM non competitive world wide, sans USA, China markets? It’s almost hilarious to see union workers striking union owned company!? https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-general-motors-could-leaving-202000371.html

Advantage diesel!? Diesel can make better combinations, (should that be decided) smoothing over hybrid/EV ‘s disadvantages if/& when combined.

ruking1

Déjà vu all over again? https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/a677e6c2-3498-38bb-a87c-0ae3bdcbeb27/ss_mercedes-maker-seen-as-using.html

ruking1

Déjà vu all over again ?

“Mercedes maker seen as using VW-like emissions tests”

https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/a677e6c2-3498-38bb-a87c-0ae3bdcbeb27/ss_mercedes-maker-seen-as-using.html

While it will be nice to get most to all monies back for the third time, I have yet to find other cars on the market that can match any of the three diesels: torque, range, reliability, durability, & normal resale values.

gagrice

ruking1 said:

Déjà vu all over again? https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/a677e6c2-3498-38bb-a87c-0ae3bdcbeb27/ss_mercedes-maker-seen-as-using.html

Are they going to have to pry your dying fingers from the steering wheel of your GLK Bluetec?

Better go drive the Terrain/Equinox diesels. May be your only choice unless you take a chance on a Jaguar F-Pace. Jeep was given the green light last year on their GC diesel. Still none for sale that I can find. I do have a Jeep dealer 3 miles from the house, so it would be a possible.

https://blog.caranddriver.com/2017-ram-and-jeep-diesels-okd-for-sale-by-epa/

ruking1

Indeed! There are a series of GLK related conundrums (compact size). The VW Touareg/Porsche Cayenne TDI’s (mid size) set very high bars, especially with enhanced emissions systems.

From what I’ve been reading about the GM revolution & older GM experiences, I’m predisposed toward GM/Chevrolet TDI’s. I just wish they were quicker to adopt the 7, 8, 9, 10 speed A/T in the redesign for 2018. VS 260 # ft, we’ve been spoiled comparatively with the 369/406 # ft of torque!

I was really jazzed when Chevrolet put a 7 sp M/T option in the Corvette. While I think it belongs on other models: i.e., PU trucks, SUV/CUV’s. I’m guessing that the various markets do not demand that option.

gagrice

I am fine with the 6 Speed auto in the GMC Canyon diesel. Rarely downshifts to 5th. Only on the steepest hills. 369 ft lbs of torque get the job done. I imagine my curb weight is more than your GLK. Not sure why GM is slow to adopt the 7-9 speeds in their diesels. May not be able to handle the torque. The Terrain/Equinox diesels are still using the 6 speed auto transmission. I would like to spend more time with the 1.6 L diesel before getting too caught up with them. Only a handful of them on Fuelly. All over the board mileage wise. From a low of 24 to high of 38.9 MPG. Mine got Canyon got pushed down with towing a trailer from San Diego. Overall 26.3 MPG which just under my Touareg at 47k miles with an overall 26.4 MPG. At least 30% better than comparable vehicles with gas engines. Not likely I will give up on diesel unless the gubmint forces us out of them.

gagrice

Now to the C&D numbers on the Chevy Equinox. Not shabby at all. If they can get 43 MPG, Ruking you would be up near 50 MPG. I am getting excited about having another new vehicle in my new garage.

EPA rated at an already impressive 38 mpg on the highway, our Equinox returned a solid 43 mpg in our 75-mph highway cruise test. That’s a full 15 mpg better than the 1.5-liter Equinox AWD posted in the same test. Combined with its 15.6-gallon fuel capacity, the only thing standing between you and 670 miles of highway travel is a catheter.

fintail

This is really hitting the media now - wonder if it is true? And if so, if there will be a buyback or VW-like settlement?

xwesx

fintail said:

This is really hitting the media now - wonder if it is true? And if so, if there will be a buyback or VW-like settlement?

I don't know, but I doubt I will be speculating on it this time around. If they had come through on the buyback for the Q7, I would probably give it a go. I don't think the government philosophy is 'greenie' enough during this administration to really put the hammer down if Daimler runs afoul of US regs.

ruking1

Not to get political, but Trump could have probably reversed the VW diesel gate decision. Absolutely no effort was made. Given a plethora of reasons: political, economic & otherwise; I think there are a lot of things behind the scenes that we will never be privy.

kyfdx

ruking1 said:

Not to get political, but Trump could have reversed the VW diesel gate decision. Absolutely no effort was made. Given a plethora of reasons: political, economic & otherwise; I think there are a lot of things behind the scenes that we will never be privy.

Forget the politics. How would you reverse that? After the massive amount of money that had already been paid out, and cars returned to VW? Not only that, this was a negotiated court settlement. The president doesn't have the power to reverse court decisions, especially negotiated settlements. It seems you've lost track of the calendar. My Audi was returned and I'd already received a check for $25K. How do you fix that?

ruking1

xwesx said:

fintail said:

This is really hitting the media now - wonder if it is true? And if so, if there will be a buyback or VW-like settlement?

I don't know, but I doubt I will be speculating on it this time around. If they had come through on the buyback for the Q7, I would probably give it a go. I don't think the government philosophy is 'greenie' enough during this administration to really put the hammer down if Daimler runs afoul of US regs.

It does beg the question at this point, how’s the emissions fix going?