What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

Michaell

gagrice said:

Leaving Home Depot yesterday, a fellow flagged me down. Asked if I liked my GMC Canyon diesel. Of course I gave him a good answer. His E250 Bluetec was parked next to us. He also has a Canyon with over 100k miles he would like to trade in. Says the best highway mileage he ever got was 20 MPG. Not close to the 25 MPG EPA rating. Does the EPA do that to encourage people to buy gas guzzling vehicles? And his is a 2wd. I asked about the Mercedes with the 2.1L 4 cylinder engine. He absolutely loves that car. Best he has ever owned. 42 MPG on the highway is his average. I think Fintail better figure out how to keep his when the lease is up.

PS
He's retired from GM worked somewhere around Nashville TN. Moved to Las Vegas and a year later to Pahrump.

Spring Hill, TN - was the original Saturn plant, then converted over to general GM production. Not sure if it's still open or not.

ruking1

fintail said:

If I end up in another Bluetec, I'll be buying a different car - buying out a MB lease is apparently a financially painful thing to do. Been a good car for sure,

If it were me & wanted to keep the car, I’d deal with them! The worst that could happen is either one &/or both say... no. You knowing the finance folks, car’s owner, car’s history & depreciation $$’s (to make your new best offer) presents a host of distinct advantages. They, of course can make a no-brainer finance deal with little downside risk. They also save on auction, opportunity costs, etc., & can redepreciate the new finance amounts.

fintail

But the residual is going to end up being like 8K over market value. It is nice to know the history, and it is low mileage, but 8K is a chunk of change. Send me 8K, and I'll do it Seriously, if it came to that, it might be easier to let them send it to auction, have my local dealer bid on it, and sell it to me that way, probably would save a good 5K or more.

If I buy a different one one, I also get to hunt for the right car. I think I'd want a lighter color, "luxury" trim rather than "sport", and a truly full option load. Whether or not that car actually exists is another story. But I would definitely consider buying one at lease end, aside from the efficiency of the engine, I like the mild hint of old time clatter along with the smoothness of the torque.

ruking1 said:

If it were me & wanted to keep the car, I’d deal with them! The worst that could happen is either one &/or both say no. You knowing the owner, car’s history & depreciation $$’s offer distinct advantages. They, of course can make a no-brainer finance deal with little downside risk. They also save on auction opportunity costs, etc., & can redepreciate the new finance amounts.

ruking1

To state the obvious, don’t make the residual your issue. I’m helping you save $8k. Your dealer really has low incentives to bid on a specific car for a person without serious commitments or someone there owes you a $$’s favor.

fintail

Helping me save 8K would be encouraging me to find a different car MB lease buyouts are virtually non-negotiable in terms of the residual. If you don't want to pay their price, they just send it to auction, they have insurance to cover this (along with profit margins so high to begin with, the costs don't matter much).

This is my third car from the dealer, I bet I could talk my way into it, but it might be more interesting to hunt for a car. And if it will be a long term car, I'd like it to be the 100% perfectly specified (diamond silver, light interior, lux trim, every possible option) car.

ruking1 said:

To state the obvious, don’t make the residual your issue. I’m helping you save $8k. Your dealer really has low incentives to bid on a specific car for a person without serious commitments or someone there owes you a $$’s favor.

ruking1

Indeed, different factors have different priorities to different people @ different times for different reasons.

fintail

8K is a chunk of change. If I assume diesel at $3.50 and 40mpg cruising, that's over 90K miles of driving! That's around a decade for me.

ruking1

Yes, $ 8,000 USD are chunks of commute monies. I’ve made that case using various yardsticks, time & time again. However, in a normal 3 year lease, mpg concerns probably do not extend past the lease, typically 36,000 miles.

Back from the dealer after oil/filter change & normal free inspection items fresh patri4s & Starbucks coffee & wash, pretty snoozeville. Zzzzzzzzzzzz

fintail

I drive what I consider a low mileage - mpg isn't a huge concern to me, a guzzler would be a nuisance, but not a disaster. I like the diesel for the engine itself rather than overall mileage - I really only take advantage of it on road trips. It bests the E350 equivalent in overall mpg, but I find this has much more character.

kyfdx

Banks don't negotiate buyouts, any more.

And, they've put in blocks, so your dealership can't buy your car from them for market value, and flip it back to you at a lower price, either.. 5-10 years ago, those were options.. No longer available.

ruking1

ruking1 said:

Yes, $ 8,000 USD are chunks of commute monies. I’ve made that case using various yardsticks, time & time again. However, in a normal 3 year lease, mpg concerns probably do not extend past the lease, typically 36,000 miles.

Back from the dealer after oil/filter change & normal free inspection items fresh patri4s & Starbucks coffee & wash, pretty snoozeville. Zzzzzzzzzzzz

To finish, @ 62,000 miles, next oil/filter change due @ 92,000 miles. The mpg is @ 37.8 mpg. Will probably need new tires in 10,000 miles. DEF topped up.

fintail

30K miles between oil changes? I've done 10K on all modern MBs running synthetic. I think my overall mpg is in the low 30s, but I do a lot of crawling commuting in it - evening commute averages around 15 mph. Tires no worry, but if I bought a car with stock runflats, I'd wear em out and install normal tires.

ruking1

Yes! The dealer used 5W30 (of 5 viscosities ESP MB specification 229.52. I’m a fan of 5W40, for increased protection; but Mobil One & MB in the interest of better mpg, are moving to the lower viscosities. I’m guessing the lower viscosity will post even better mpg (1) than 36 to 37.8. On the run flat tires, I’m running 3 psi above placard, with 5,000 miles rotations. It’s getting app 10,000 miles to 11,000 miles per 1/32nd in. This ski/snow season is dry, so this will probably further extend the miles. I’m also guessing NON run flat tires, once broken in will post even better mpg (1-2) than the OEM run flats.

elias

hi folks, thanks, nobody hurt in the wreck. gto totalled by minor-looking body damage due to repair-parts cost >$10k. after being totalled with front-end damage the GTO still looks better than a showroom 2018 camaro. it remains to be seen how much i get repaid by other-guys-insurance, and/or possibilities for the rebuild/part-out/salvage.

xwesx, nice idea re the stickshift gm diesel , torque it, you will like it. amazingly fast cabin warmup. heated steering wheel available. nice prices indeed!

gagrice

fintail said:

30K miles between oil changes? I've done 10K on all modern MBs running synthetic. I think my overall mpg is in the low 30s, but I do a lot of crawling commuting in it - evening commute averages around 15 mph. Tires no worry, but if I bought a car with stock runflats, I'd wear em out and install normal tires.

Looks like there are about 10 silver E250 bluetecs across the USA. May have to fly to someplace to buy one. Have done that many times. Mostly for new vehicles. This will give you an idea on the going prices.

https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresults.action/?clrId=27133&fuelTypeId=31766&intClrId=27108&intClrId=27111&intClrId=48011&mdId=21014&mkId=20028&page=1&perPage=20&rd=99999&searchSource=GN_REFINEMENT&showMore=false&sort=relevance&stkTypId=28881&trId=55167&trId=55330&zc=89048

fintail

The color I specifically want is "diamond silver", I see a couple there. Color is but the first step, I want specific options too. That will be the fun of the hunt, but the right car could be out there. We'll see what happens closer to lease end, if there's no hot new lease deal.

My residual is well into the 40s, making real world prices for the car at the end of the year at the earliest quite an amusing comparison.

gagrice said:

<
Looks like there are about 10 silver E250 bluetecs across the USA. May have to fly to someplace to buy one. Have done that many times. Mostly for new vehicles. This will give you an idea on the going prices.

https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresults.action/

fintail

The noise and performance from runflats, on a car with pseudo-sport suspension, irritates me. The roads here aren't exactly German quality, and it can be a rough ride around town. The tire change would purely be for comfort.

ruking1 said:

Yes! The dealer used 5W30 (of 5 viscosities ESP MB specification 229.52. I’m a fan of 5W40, for increased protection; but Mobil One & MB in the interest of better mpg, are moving to the lower viscosities. I’m guessing the lower viscosity will post even better mpg (1) than 36 to 37.8. On the run flat tires, I’m running 3 psi above placard, with 5,000 miles rotations. It’s getting app 10,000 miles to 11,000 miles per 1/32nd in. This ski/snow season is dry, so this will probably further extend the miles. I’m also guessing NON run flat tires, once broken in will post even better mpg (1-2) than the OEM run flats.

ruking1

I take it you still run OEM tires, (run flat, with pseudo-sport suspension)? Yeah, I don’t think anybody would mistake where you live for having German quality roads. But, you know where to go when you have the (German roads ) yearning. Around here, no one would mistake the roads for being like where you live?

As such, I lean toward more CUV/SUV M/S tires that can take “the licking & keep on ticking”, as one old watch commercial use to mantra. It is also amazing these CUV tires post very high skid pad ratings. Occassionally, I like to make the tires/suspensions dance off-road. My tire and alignment guru actually does the forensics after action reports. At these miles, they indicate wear is even across the treads.

Four diesels, but in most ways UNrelated to diesel (447,000 miles) so far have passed the tests with flying colors. None of the four “needed” alignments. However, I know that it takes his shop time to set it up to check on his systems. So I just go ahead with it. We’ve taking some tire/suspension shocks that almost sounded like close gunfire. I am a longer term fan of stock VW sub vendor suspension /shocks. I’m a 61,000 miles fan of MB sub vendor suspension/shocks.

There is also a load of TMI about (diesel/NON diesel related) suspension/shock absorbers. One teaser, one sub vender for VW is Sachs. https://www.sachsperformance.com/en/sachs-performance-suspension-navigator

fintail

Yep, all it takes to drive on nice roads and truly first world HDIs is about a $700 plane ticket and a rental car Most of the highways here are passable, but some of the city streets are like an imitation of Detroit. I needed an alignment and suspension repair last year after hitting an especially bad pothole, and some of the sunken manhole covers here I suspect are left that way in order to bring business to local alignment shops.

No doubt the wonderful roads make CUV/SUVs more appealing, and they are a segment that definitely benefits from diesel.

ruking1

I’ve taken any number of USA long distance trips in all four diesels: 5,944 miles to 210 miles. The longest leg was app 1,100 miles. This may be totally my perception, but after driving gas models versus diesels, I always wanted to drive longer in the diesels.

Ford’s PU truck Ranger Raptor bi turbo diesel? https://www.yahoo.com/news/mercedes-nissan-never-x-class-081049758.html

fintail

I have some road trips planned before lease end - several in spring and summer, and usually do a 1000+ mile one in the fall. These cars are the best for trips like that.

ruking1

Happy trails to you!

I absolutely love car travels via US open roads, especially using PVF diesels! Diesels (like yours) are uniquely adapted for US roads.

I will go so far as to say PVF diesels are actually better adapted to US roads than the majority/most of our gasoline versions. It is not an accident that over 95% of big rigs doing 100,000 miles per year & UP ARE all diesel.

I did/do/continue to however enjoy cross country (PUG) 2001 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 trips. I did not like having to stop for fuel frequently and carrying extra oil, since it ate 1 qt of oil every app 3,000 to 5,000 miles. I do suspect (even in my dreams) that 3.0 L , V8’s: 4.0L, 5.0L, 6.0L bi turbo diesel engines would probably be as engaging, if not more so.

Interesting the Porsche dealer’s dilemmas. There does not seem to be any talk of standardization for delivery of the electrical kWh commodity. Interesting take on prices per kWh & charges. https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/porsche-plans-500-fast-charging-152441199.html

fintail

I had maybe my worst commute performance this afternoon: 11mph, 18mpg. Stopping for red light after red light and sitting in non-moving traffic will do that. This is where the diesel hybrid would shine.

500 charging stations eh, interesting. I wonder if the dopey EV tax break will be gone by then (it ought to be).

ruking1

UOA for any oil ? VW has 507.00, MB has 229.52 specifications.

https://youtu.be/j_tRaYOpmYQ

ruking1

This accidental discovery is absolutely groundbreaking ! Yet it rates close to ZERO IN environmental news. But the “stormy” news/research are particularly salacious !? https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/scientists-accidentally-produce-enzyme-devours-120200826.html

Payments for the MB are coming to an (premature-not sure what got into me) end next mo. I’m going to miss making a literally automatic (good) % in a slam dunk mutual fund, with the bi turbo asset slowly coming in hand, free & clear. Wake me when I can start this ( diesel) up again. IRS sec 179 doesn’t hurt @ all.

No taxes were due For VW buyback’s, since both (of mine) were court settlements.

Oh GAC me? https://www.yahoo.com/finance/m/a8495de4-fbf6-3f4e-8c36-5eed89d5fec0/ss_where-geely-and-chery-failed,.html

ruking1

Global warming? https://youtu.be/ZVjr4mii3cE
https://youtu.be/uWf8nrI2YyM

fintail

Or simple geology.

When 40 container ships emit the same pollution as every car in the world, I have a hard time feeling bad about what comes out of my car.

I talked to my old boss yesterday - 2 years ago, with my blessing, she bought 2013 or 14 ML350 Bluetec. Lease return from a broker, not CPO, but had factory warranty. She still loves it, and embraces the mileage and solid feel compared to her prior car, a MDX. She also had a RLX, and is amused the boat ML gets better mileage than the smallish sedan.

kyfdx

fintail said:

Or simple geology.

When 40 container ships emit the same pollution as every car in the world, I have a hard time feeling bad about what comes out of my car.

I talked to my old boss yesterday - 2 years ago, with my blessing, she bought 2013 or 14 ML350 Bluetec. Lease return from a broker, not CPO, but had factory warranty. She still loves it, and embraces the mileage and solid feel compared to her prior car, a MDX. She also had a RLX, and is amused the boat ML gets better mileage than the smallish sedan.

Those 40 container ships are carrying more pounds over more miles than all of the cars in the world... so, actually, much more efficient on a weight/pollution ratio. The same goes for freight trucking, railroads, etc, etc..

Now, if you took the train to work, you'd have a point..

fintail

Apples to oranges. Cars carry people, not pounds of freight. I'd like to see those mileage stats, too - there are an awful lot of cars out there

And really, the point is, the shipping industry is virtually free from pollution controls, and nary a word is said, while the (often hypocritical) eco-warriors want to eliminate ICE vehicles for personal transport.

kyfdx said:

Those 40 container ships are carrying more pounds over more miles than all of the cars in the world... so, actually, much more efficient on a weight/pollution ratio. The same goes for freight trucking, railroads, etc, etc..

Now, if you took the train to work, you'd have a point..

kyfdx

fintail said:

Apples to oranges. Cars carry people, not pounds of freight. I'd like to see those mileage stats, too - there are an awful lot of cars out there

And really, the point is, the shipping industry is virtually free from pollution controls, and nary a word is said, while the (often hypocritical) eco-warriors want to eliminate ICE vehicles for personal transport.

kyfdx said:

Those 40 container ships are carrying more pounds over more miles than all of the cars in the world... so, actually, much more efficient on a weight/pollution ratio. The same goes for freight trucking, railroads, etc, etc..

Now, if you took the train to work, you'd have a point..

I used the same stats you did...

fintail

40 ships vs how many hundreds of millions of cars? I can maybe believe the tonnage, but mileage, not so fast.

Sounds like fake news. I thought Russia wanted more oil consumption

kyfdx said:

I used the same stats you did...

ruking1

Statistical.com : (Search parameter: number of ships in the world merchant fleet btw Jan 1,2008- 2017) = 52,183 container ships as of January 2017. Keep in mind ‘bunker oil” is nominally @ 50,000 ppm sulfur (per EIA.gov) with little to NO emissions controls !!! VS 15 ppm PVF ULSD (nominally sold @ 5 to 10 ppm sulfur, not to mention massive emissions controls) Indeed, if only bio diesel engines are certified, sulfur can easily be ZERO ppm. sulfur. Not a word of ALL the people KILT in the operation of one “Disney” cruise ship?

So in terms of “nominally to nominally”, the math indicates a ratio of 10,000 to 1 (GREATER)nPOLLUTION. Naturally EPA/CARB et al., (they) are trying to get rid of the immeasurable/least PVF massively mitigated ULSD emissions.

GEE, are there many others that notices they are looking through the wrong end of the binoculars? The Mt Everests mountains are literally the mole hills. The tiniest of mole hills, aka, electron microscope size are blown up to be the Mt. Everests of mountains.

xwesx

kyfdx said:

fintail said:

Or simple geology.

When 40 container ships emit the same pollution as every car in the world, I have a hard time feeling bad about what comes out of my car.

I talked to my old boss yesterday - 2 years ago, with my blessing, she bought 2013 or 14 ML350 Bluetec. Lease return from a broker, not CPO, but had factory warranty. She still loves it, and embraces the mileage and solid feel compared to her prior car, a MDX. She also had a RLX, and is amused the boat ML gets better mileage than the smallish sedan.

Those 40 container ships are carrying more pounds over more miles than all of the cars in the world... so, actually, much more efficient on a weight/pollution ratio. The same goes for freight trucking, railroads, etc, etc..

Now, if you took the train to work, you'd have a point..

The old Alaska State Ferry, Taku, is currently making its way to India for scrapping. The owner estimates that the journey from Ketchikan, AK, to Bombay, India, will cost him $400,000 in fuel. It is empty, save for the skeleton crew aboard.

kyfdx

Have you seen video of the ship scrapping operations in India? Scary. Seems like that was the theme of a book or movie, recently?

ruking1

$400,000/$3.59 per gal (in ULSD terms ) = 111,421 gals *38 mpg = 4.234 M miles.

Michaell

kyfdx said:

Have you seen video of the ship scrapping operations in India? Scary. Seems like that was the theme of a book or movie, recently?

I thought I saw a 60 Minutes segment on this a number of years ago, but it was Bangladesh, not India.

kyfdx

Michaell said:

kyfdx said:

Have you seen video of the ship scrapping operations in India? Scary. Seems like that was the theme of a book or movie, recently?

I thought I saw a 60 Minutes segment on this a number of years ago, but it was Bangladesh, not India.

It must have been a documentary I saw... If you Google, there are a dozen of them.

ruking1

Too funny, the ones that I’ve seen don’t seem very economically or environmentally “sustainable”. Where does the work go next, Somali pirates will dismantle ships for food “Green Peace” program? Isn’t it ironic that Green Peace ships probably use totally unmitigated ships engines using 50,000 ppm sulfur bunker oil?

gagrice

One ship can haul about 18,000 tons. That would be about 180,000 people weighing in at 200 lb. 50 million cars can carry about 50 million 200 lb people. Making 15 cargo ships 277 times as polluting per lb of cargo. Nice try at spinning.

It has been estimated that just one of these container ships, the length of around six football pitches, can produce the same amount of pollution as 50 million cars. The emissions from 15 of these mega-ships match those from all the cars in the world. And if the shipping industry were a country, it would be ranked between Germany and Japan as the sixth-largest contributor to global CO2 emissions.

https://inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/cargo-container-shipping-carbon-pollution/

kyfdx

Same amount of pollution per mile? Per year? How far do your cars carry their 200 lb cargo, compared to the ship?

As long as we are doing math, set the parameters you are working with. (I know, the article doesn’t say, or even who did the estimating).

kyfdx

Also, a ship can carry 18,000 20-foot containers. Each container could hold up to 10 tons. (20,000 lbs)

No spin, just math

gagrice

I think you are glossing over the point. Climate wonks try to blame land transportation vehicles for CO2 when it is a very small fraction of the overall pollution. I would be happy to see them shut down cargo shipping. We could get back to making our own junk. We get new TVs and appliances in the cargo ships and send back scrap metal and scrap electronics to recycle and make more consumer electronics to sell US. I have NO remorse for the tiny bit of pollution my diesels put out when I drive through the smog in So California caused by cargo ships burning bunker oil.

kyfdx

gagrice said:

I think you are glossing over the point. Climate wonks try to blame land transportation vehicles for CO2 when it is a very small fraction of the overall pollution. I would be happy to see them shut down cargo shipping. We could get back to making our own junk. We get new TVs and appliances in the cargo ships and send back scrap metal and scrap electronics to recycle and make more consumer electronics to sell US. I have NO remorse for the tiny bit of pollution my diesels put out when I drive through the smog in So California caused by cargo ships burning bunker oil.

Container ship emissions are a terrible problem, no doubt. They are basically unregulated. The reason you can feel good about the small amount of emissions from your vehicle is because it's small. Due to regulations.

Especially since your emissions went down by 90% with the Touareg fix!

But, my point is: Mass transportation of goods is a much more efficient/clean method to move things than a single vehicle transporting a single passenger. So, when you see a truck/trailer getting 5 mpg, they are polluting much less than our vehicles driving us 20 miles to the store, to pickup toilet paper, on a relative scale.

Comparing a passenger vehicle to mass transportation, whether for goods or passengers, is generally a specious argument. By that logic, stealing $10 is okay, because someone else took $10,000. (again, with the math thing...lol)

fintail

I'd look at theft vs vehicle emissions as also specious.

I'm just saying it is amusing that there's such a fight over somewhat insignificant vehicle emissions, when there's little being done or even said about ocean going shipping emissions, or even heavy commercial vehicle emissions (including pickups used for personal transport). Just like amusement around the "zero emissions" EV crowd doesn't want to think about what makes their juice and batteries. This is what we get from public sector pearl-clutcher ecos who want buses and bikes and shoebox apartments for everyone else, but they will keep their detached house and bloatling CUV, thank you very much. Much fighting and expense will be devoted to small problems. IMO, when shipping is regulated, then we can cry about cars.

ruking1

I’m sure you really know how absolutely terrifying (to the eco nuts/elite/wannabes) your above posting really is, IF those consequences are effected!! The US monies/investments/etc. were are remain the underlying reason for the ascension of China’s (300 M plus) middle class, in a scant 3 decades! One real reason why it took that long was because of the bureaucrats (China’s) having to continuing to argue who flung dung ! Suffice to say, there are NOW almost more middle-class in China than the entire population of United States (326 M). It was done 2 to almost 3 times faster than the rebuilding of Europe after WW2.

All glossing over, spin, no math.

Now an overwhelming majority of China’s power plants are indeed ...coal fired. ! ? The eco nuts, et al, can thank a recent two time losing presidential candidates’ HUSBANDS’ 2 terms 8 yr administrations for those results! (see, it’s not all about BHO) Of course, the deep blue sea is : did WJC REALLY want to export up-to-date American nuclear power plant technologies?

OH NO! Heaven forbid !

They had to wait for the 2 X losing presidential candidate to do the URANIUM gate (1 real Russian gate under BHO’S administration.) But the good news: a few (US up to date technologies) nuclear power plants are scheduled to be built in India !

I can’t wait for the stock of the US company to bottom out, resume dividends &/or sell the portion that will do the nuclear power plant.

How’s this for having to be mobile or homeless ? ( Mercedes TDI )

https://youtu.be/GedjjSvRNWI

fintail

Even Germany has a tremendous amount of coal plants - and Germany puts on airs of being much more greenie that most developed nations.

Let's skip the sore winner political BS, please, especially when the current regime is only seeing rising fuel prices. Besides, who wins an election here has no bearing on the construction of a power plant on the other side of the globe. But it might have bearing on kleptocratic oil money being laundered through condo towers

The middle class thing can be a little difficult - definitions of middle class differ by society, and those ones mentioned above aren't buying private cars and suburban bungalows, nor are allowed political or personal freedom.

andres3

fintail said:

I'd look at theft vs vehicle emissions as also specious.

I'm just saying it is amusing that there's such a fight over somewhat insignificant vehicle emissions, when there's little being done or even said about ocean going shipping emissions, or even heavy commercial vehicle emissions (including pickups used for personal transport). Just like amusement around the "zero emissions" EV crowd doesn't want to think about what makes their juice and batteries. This is what we get from public sector pearl-clutcher ecos who want buses and bikes and shoebox apartments for everyone else, but they will keep their detached house and bloatling CUV, thank you very much. Much fighting and expense will be devoted to small problems. IMO, when shipping is regulated, then we can cry about cars.

My father, who worked in Gov't (State) his whole life, pretty much sums it up that the Gov't likes picking low-hanging fruit. Never mind and they don't care if the fruit higher on the tree would be sweeter, better, or more beneficial to society, they just go after the low-hanging fruit.

Whether this means punishing small businesses that can't fight back, punishing motorists that can't afford lawyers to avoid unjustified huge fines for traffic infractions, or going after VW diesels, that's what they do.

Big picture? Efficiency? Not important. Easy, lazy, and path of least resistance.

ruking1

fintail said:

Even Germany has a tremendous amount of coal plants - and Germany puts on airs of being much more greenie that most developed nations.

Let's skip the sore winner political BS, please, especially when the current regime is only seeing rising fuel prices. Besides, who wins an election here has no bearing on the construction of a power plant on the other side of the globe. But it might have bearing on kleptocratic oil money being laundered through condo towers

The middle class thing can be a little difficult - definitions of middle class differ by society, and those ones mentioned above aren't buying private cars and suburban bungalows, nor are allowed political or personal freedom.

Can’t have stable E grids & EV’s without massive DEPENDANCE on coal plants outputs. Germany has been/is/remains in the optic’s game..

It’s good to get a rise (2nd para) ! It’s good one & to many gloss over the realities & cherished myth’s that one confirms of China’s coal plants. It’s funny how the (so called) resist opposition parties are TOTALLY mute about the rise in PVF FUEL prices? The only thing that Congress could agree on: to come together to spend more deficit monies. I thought sleep had befallen. Ah, please resume!

Well, it’s pretty obvious China uses THEIR measures of middle class/es, ...not ours.

I guess I’ll keep my 15 year old TDI diesel & see how long & pass 200,000 miles it will go!? The jury is still out on the 2014 MB. @ 62,000 miles, it’s still a baby. The dealer did top DEF from the last (32,000 miles) oil change. So it does not seem to be a DEF hog.

Duck folks should be interested in uh, uh, Ducati’s new uh, uh, HQ in uh, uh, Mountain View, CA ( Bloomberg interview)

xwesx

fintail said:

I'd look at theft vs vehicle emissions as also specious.

I'm just saying it is amusing that there's such a fight over somewhat insignificant vehicle emissions, when there's little being done or even said about ocean going shipping emissions, or even heavy commercial vehicle emissions (including pickups used for personal transport). Just like amusement around the "zero emissions" EV crowd doesn't want to think about what makes their juice and batteries. This is what we get from public sector pearl-clutcher ecos who want buses and bikes and shoebox apartments for everyone else, but they will keep their detached house and bloatling CUV, thank you very much. Much fighting and expense will be devoted to small problems. IMO, when shipping is regulated, then we can cry about cars.

This is not to say that the industry is not a major problem, but there's actually quite a bit being done about maritime emissions. They have a long way to go, yet it is a major (and upcoming) topic in the industry. Take a look at recent articles on Maritime Logistics for more info. Here's an example: 2020 Low-Sulfur Rule

xwesx

The only coal-fired power plant under construction in the nation is less than one mile from where I sit, and I'm quite proud of that. Given that this plant is state-of-the-art technology, replacing a nearly 60-year-old coal plant, and receives its high-grade fuel source from about 100 miles away, I strongly suspect that it is most likely among the least environmentally-impactful power plants in the world, and certainly more so than any "green" technologies out there.