Postwar Studebakers

sda

uplanderguy said:

More pics of this R3 Avanti in turquoise, recently finished and on display last weekend at the Avanti Owners' Association International meet in Kansas City, below. I'm hard-pressed to think of a more-desirable Avanti in private (not museum) hands, other than possibly the one that was Studebaker president Sherwood Egbert's car which sold at auction a few years back for $75K. See post no. 62 below for the pics.

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?97264-1st-of-the-9/page2

That's a sharp car. The color really compliments the car and is a good representation of the '60s. My first car, a '62 Galaxie was a turquoise blue with matching pladish cloth interior. Dad had a '66 Galaxie 500 company car that was very similar to that color as well.

uplanderguy

Turquoise is my favorite color for an Avanti. I'm loving the Halibrand wheels and R3 engine as well. I'll have to look to see if I can determine the interior color. My guess is probably turquoise or black, but my choice would be the saddle color, which to me looks best against the woodgrain dash panels and steering wheel.

I remember hearing a guy say once, "Using a chamois along the bottom curve of the rear quarters (of an Avanti) is almost a sexual experience", LOL.

EDIT: Turquoise interior

fintail

If I was choosing an Avanti, I would pick that color combo. I know it is period correct, but mags/wheels and whitewalls always has been a little odd to me.

uplanderguy

I've seen a couple factory photos, one of an Avanti, one of a '64 Commander, with the Halibrands and whitewalls so as you say, it is period-correct.

berri

I like the Avanti in that sort of light gold color with a white or light beige interior. Light enough to show off the lines.

fintail

Whitewalls were just a big thing I guess. Even on sports cars. Early E-Types even had wide whites, they look kind of amusing now.

uplanderguy

I've seen some Studebaker Avantis with blackwalls, and they just don't cut it with me for some reason. Similarly, Corvettes of that era look better with whitewalls too, even with the knockoff wheels, to me, anyway. You're right about Jags; I had forgotten about that. For some reason, with them, I like the blackwalls with the wire wheels better. It might be a preconceived notion to me about whitewalls being an American thing, who knows? LOL

uplanderguy

I like the Avanti in that sort of light gold color with a white or light beige interior. Light enough to show off the lines.

Most of the earlier ads were of the car in that color, and I like it too--understated, sort-of like the rest of the car.

I know a lady who was the first female purchaser of a new Avanti in her state back in '63. She now has a '64 in that same color with the matching interior. She didn't know this when she bought the '64, but I could tell from the (short) serial number that it is only nine cars from the last Studebaker Avanti and was assembled on 12/26/63, six days after the Lark-types and Hawks were last built at South Bend.

sda

fintail said:

Whitewalls were just a big thing I guess. Even on sports cars. Early E-Types even had wide whites, they look kind of amusing now.

Red walls were quite popular in the '60s on sporty cars. They were often seen on 442s, GTOs, Corvettes, etc. When did white letter tires take the place of red walls? Early 70's?

fintail

I wasn't around then, but I think you are right, probably by 1972 or so redline tires seem to have vanished. Then whitewalls reigned supreme before finally fading away again in the 80s.

sda said:

Red walls were quite popular in the '60s on sporty cars. They were often seen on 442s, GTOs, Corvettes, etc. When did white letter tires take the place of red walls? Early 70's?

fintail

I think an earlier Avanti can pull off thinner whitewalls, which were new and modern at the time, like the car.

The Jag I was thinking of mixed wide whites and wire wheels. It seems kind of odd:



But as ample period photos show, was correct from the factory:

uplanderguy said:

I've seen some Studebaker Avantis with blackwalls, and they just don't cut it with me for some reason. Similarly, Corvettes of that era look better with whitewalls too, even with the knockoff wheels, to me, anyway. You're right about Jags; I had forgotten about that. For some reason, with them, I like the blackwalls with the wire wheels better. It might be a preconceived notion to me about whitewalls being an American thing, who knows? LOL

uplanderguy

As you know I'm a domestic car guy, but what is not to love about that era Jag E-Type? Just beautiful. The wide whites are a bit goofy though, I agree.

When I was a kid, either Revell or Monogram offered model kits, something like maybe a 1/12 or 1/8 (?) scale red Jag E-Type or blue Corvette Sting Ray, probably about a '65. Excellent detail, including seat belts and underhood wires. I always wanted one or both, but not to be.

uplanderguy

I just noticed (or remembered) that those Jags had wraparound windshields, which had become somewhat passe in this country by that time. Still looks great on the Jag though.

berri

I don't think I've seen an XKE in that goldish color before

uplanderguy

Here is what I think is the last Studebaker Avanti magazine advertisement. I'm a bit ashamed to say I cut it out of a National Geographic (I think), pretty sure Dec. '63, from the library, to put on my wall, sometime when I was in college. Production ended in Dec. '63.

http://www.oldcaradvertising.com/Avanti Ads/1964 Avanti/1964 Avanti Ad-01.jpg

fintail

1961 design, it was current then, but quickly became kind of old, as current design changed so much between 1960-65. The fintails are maybe the best proof of this.

Regarding cutting magazine ads, I once did that all the time. Not from the library though. When I was a teen, my parents had a spot in an antique mall. I would buy large lots of NG magazines at yard and estate sales, cut out the ads, and sell them in bundles (10-15 each, I think) for $10 per bundle. They always sold out.

uplanderguy said:

I just noticed (or remembered) that those Jags had wraparound windshields, which had become somewhat passe in this country by that time. Still looks great on the Jag though.

uplanderguy

RE.: The last Studebaker Avanti magazine ad, above--I really like that late Studebaker company logo--the font, and the red, white, and blue ying/yang emblem. To me, these look more modern than 1963 would indicate. On the flip side, I'll concede the Avanti script is rather "out there", LOL. My white '63 Lark had that "Avanti" script ("Avanti Powered") on the emblem on the lower front fenders.

http://www.oldcaradvertising.com/Avanti Ads/1964 Avanti/1964 Avanti Ad-01.jpg

https://www.studebakerparts.com/studebakerparts/store/s/html/images/avantipower.jpg

The '64 Avanti-powered Lark-types and Hawks had a more intricate badge, but I don't care for the oval shape much:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f7/54/37/f75437d4b9f77945cb6d20d839127add.jpg

fintail

The sans serif Studebaker font in that ad must have been modern in the early 60s. That trait can make an emblem age well.

Funny on the yin/yang emblem, I was thinking "what the heck does RI mean", then it dawned on me

uplanderguy

I never knew what that font was called, but it with the ying/yang logo, looks modern today I think...especially for such an old-line company (111 years old in 1963!).

fintail

Sans serif is just the type of font, lacking serifs (feet), became popular in the 20s I think, but not really mainstream until a bit later. Stude must have hired some progressive graphic arts types. I suspect it was seen more in cars ads than elsewhere, and was originally most popular in advertising.

When S-P was handling MB, they used somewhat similar fonts, probably seen as very modern in the early 60s:

uplanderguy

That's a very nice ad.

Over the years, at South Bend meets, I've met some engineers and marketing types who worked for Studebaker, who would've been young guys at the time of their employment. They knew it was precarious there in the sixties, but a couple I specifically remembered said they didn't want to work for any other car company. I like that; seems like a lost thing these days.

I can think of a couple guys I've read about, that went from Studebaker in South Bend to M-B Sales Inc. after South Bend went away. One was Tom Torrance, in Marketing--he ended up retiring from MBNA I think--and another was Lon Fleener who was married to Sherwood Egbert's secretary, Martha, whom I'd met a couple times at South Bend meets--stylish older lady. She's passed now. Martha told me that Lon helped "bring Mercedes to America" and I think (accent on 'think') that he ran the M-B division for Studebaker during those years. He and Martha married after South Bend production stopped; Studebaker management remained in South Bend even after production stopped and I have read that M-B was an American division of Studebaker into 1965 sometime.

fintail

I've always liked this one. MB/S-P had a long line of ads with the hood ornament in the foreground as seen here. The car pictured is also interesting. a W112 300SE - very rare car, and it looks like my car approaching in the background:



1965 sounds about right for when things changed. Probably some interesting stories to be had from the Stude people who worked on the venture then. MB sales definitely increased during the time, both sides found benefit.

Regarding not wanting to work elsewhere, I suspect employers were a little more loyal then, too.

berri

Back in the days when a MB looks really stood out ...

I'm afraid generics have hit all levels of car design anymore, combined with a lack of color choices. Bring back the 60's!

uplanderguy

I don't believe I've ever seen a Benz with the bright trim the one in that ad has. But then, I didn't see a lot of Benzes where I grew up, even though we had a dealer from '57-65. I do remember my high school nurse, an old lady with a funny/cranky personality whom everyone in town knew as she had worked the operating room at the hospital earlier, drove a blue (like your color) 190 convertible.

I haven't bemoaned this here in a long time, but when I look at brochures from the sixties or even early seventies, there were often sixteen or so colors available, four or six vinyl top colors, interiors of black, dark brown, beige, white, green, blue, and red....so easy then to custom-build a car of your own. That, and I miss the days of individual options instead of having to buy packages of stuff you don't want to get one thing you do. I think we can thank the imports for that, LOL!

Even into the early '80's, it was still somewhat like that, at least at GM. My first new car was an '81 Monte Carlo, two-tone light jade roof and hood over dark jade everything else, jade cloth interior, positraction, FM radio, intermittent wipers, tilt wheel, no air, and somewhat unusual (for the time) small V8.

It used to be you never saw a complete duplicate of your car. Now, I can see two identical cars, and I mean identical, sitting next to each other on the dealer lot.

Mr_Shiftright

Certainly not for everyone, but an interesting re-incarnation of a rare car:

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/cto/5802712717.html

uplanderguy

I know the plating at the front of '55's must cost a fortune, but....

Actually, I think I may have seen this car at a meet someplace in time over the years.

fintail

The car in that MB ad is a top of the line fintail. Only about 5000 units total were built for world wide distribution from 1961-65. I think they would have been fairly expensive when new, maybe $7500 or a little more back then. Very high tech for the time - a complex MFI I6 engine with disc brakes, 4 speed auto, air suspension, etc. I suspect they weren't easy to sell, as they are somewhat finicky and require by the book maintenance.

Mr_Shiftright

Here's a rare one: '57 Provincial Wagon. Lot of Mickey-Mouse stuff on it though.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/5804003362.html

berri

Sorry, but I think that Conestoga was ruined

bhill2

fintail said:

The car in that MB ad is a top of the line fintail. Only about 5000 units total were built for world wide distribution from 1961-65. I think they would have been fairly expensive when new, maybe $7500 or a little more back then. Very high tech for the time - a complex MFI I6 engine with disc brakes, 4 speed auto, air suspension, etc. I suspect they weren't easy to sell, as they are somewhat finicky and require by the book maintenance.

Oh yeah. My mother's cousin bought a 190D in, I think, 1962. The dealer had a 300SE on the lot. The cousin opined that he wished he could afford that one. The response from the salesman was that even if he could afford to buy it he couldn't afford to maintain it.

uplanderguy

Here's a nicer '57 wagon on eBay right now ('nicer' to me = more original/authentic):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Studebaker-Provincial-/302086308071?forcerrptr=true&hash=item4655bf40e7:g:ozQAAOSwzaJX5-B6&item=302086308071

If I were looking for a Stude wagon of that era, I'd look for a Packard Country Sedan for '57. They are out there.

But personally, I'd look for a bone-stock Wagonaire.

fintail

If it was a coupe or cabrio, I suspect those were approaching 10K in 1962, the 300SE anyway. Those have lower production numbers than sedans, but much better survival rates, so they are more common now. I suspect most of the W112s sold at standalone MB dealers in metro areas rather than suburban co-branded Stude dealers.

bhill2 said:

Oh yeah. My mother's cousin bought a 190D in, I think, 1962. The dealer had a 300SE on the lot. The cousin opined that he wished he could afford that one. The response from the salesman was that even if he could afford to buy it he couldn't afford to maintain it.

berri

Weren't those Wagonaire's notorious for water leaks? Might make it even harder to find one.

uplanderguy

They were, early on.

There are fixed-roof ones too, but those aren't seen very often.

uplanderguy

Here's a fixed-roof one--although I am reminded these didn't say "Wagonaire" on them anyplace--that was for sale a few years back. It's a lower-line Commander model, but what an honest car--and by that I mean, totally original or at worst, authentic.

http://barnfinds.com/south-bend-survivor-1964-studebaker-wagonaire/

Nice instrument panel shot I think.

I like the functional look of those last Stude instrument panels. A couple small things I like--even the bottom of the dash is padded, where your knees will hit, LOL--and although this is not a safety thing, I like that the instruments are glass-lensed and the rings are chrome, instead of both being plastic as in other makes of the time. A quality look I think. Also like that there were no idiot lights in a Stude instrument panel from '63 to the end.

berri

Instrument panels are a very interesting part of cars. You could really do a whole forum on just that topic. Unfortunately, many of today's are more like video game consoles.

uplanderguy

For sure. I grew up on Chevys, but I've been around Studes long enough to think that the panel is so much nicer on this car than a Chevy II. As a collector car, I wouldn't bat an eye at choosing a wagon like the above versus a Falcon, Chevy II, or Valiant wagon. Parts availability a plus, too. Just MHO.

Mr_Shiftright

berri said:

Sorry, but I think that Conestoga was ruined

Very often these radical "retro-rods" are built up from pretty hopeless cars---they were "pre-ruined" by their previous negligent owners.

uplanderguy

Only tangentially related to Studebaker, but here's an interesting story of Edsel with a forlorn-looking James Nance, head of Edsel and former president of Packard.

https://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2016/10/05/reminiscing-i-love-edsel/

berri

So that's were the horse collar grill came from! Some people think Packard lost their luxury status when they moved away from theirs. Personally, I think sales competition and Clipper played into it.

sda

Though not post war, I love the color and design of this.
1937-1939 Studebaker Coupe Express J5
http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AAhOgvh.img?h=546&w=728&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

uplanderguy

Those Coupe Express trucks are some of the very most coveted Studebakers to club members...and they bring big bucks. At one of our club international meets, maybe in the last decade or two, there were six if I remember correctly.

uplanderguy

I love this car, but where on earth do people get this stuff?

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/studebaker/gt-hawk/1884403.html

"The VIN indicates this Hawk started with a 259/180hp engine. Paint is very good. Panel gaps are consistent. Engine and underneath very clean and correct. Interior in extremely good condition. An excellent show car. – Reportedly 1 of 12 “non-package” R-2 Hawks from 1964, Studebaker's last year even though the R-2 Avanti engine should have carried an R in the VIN's third position."

The 289 was standard in every GT Hawk from '62 to '64, and one cannot tell from the VIN number what engine the car should have. BTW, this car is indeed a factory R2 car based on published production information taken straight from the production orders (build sheets).

sda

I found this tidbit today from US News and Report:

Carter wasn’t known as an auto enthusiast, but his first car was a 1947 Studebaker. Bush senior had a red 1947 Studebaker Champ as his first car. Apparently, owning a 1947 Studebaker was a popular choice for presidential hopefuls.

uplanderguy

Supposedly, Reagan also had a '47 or '48. Hard to imagine, but it seems that that era Studebaker was somewhat trendy back then, as it was truly, as their slogan went, "First By War with a Postwar Car!". (Of course, Kaiser-Frazer had new postwar cars, but had nothing pre-war!)

berri

Studebaker came out of the gates strong after WWII. The problem was the mid 50's Big 3 price wars I think?

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, the Big Three just priced the Independents out of existence. The auto biz is not nice.

Secondary to that, the Indies didn't have the capital necessary to create rapid model changes. GM was so flush they even did one-year models, like the 58s.

I think the Indies got a jump start after WWII because a) everyone needed a car and b) the U.S. government gave the Indies a priority on steel allocations.

And last of all, the Big Three really beat the Indies up on styling. Perhaps only Studebaker could hold their own on styling, the others just fell behind.

berri

I'd always heard, but don't really know, that the 58's (already revised before their release) were kind of Harley Earl's last hurrah. The 59's were a hurry up after some GM stylists and executives got a glimpse of Mopars upcoming 57's, but neither Earl or Mitchell seem to take credit for the 59/60 designs. They were kind of controversial, but maybe not out of whack given the Sputnik era. The 59 Ford was a little out there too, but I guess more conservative than the 59 Chevy, and Plymouth still had a quality hangover concern from the rush release on their 57's. Interesting times.

I think another factor that perhaps played against the independents was the broad product line for each Big 3 brand. They kind of had all price ranges and option alternatives that a buyer wanted under one roof. For example, Chevy had everything from loaded Impala's to mid line Bel Air's to value priced Biscayne's (and some years stripper Delray's as well), besides a similar array of wagons. That product breadth got even bigger as compacts, intermediates and SS sport trims were added.

Mr_Shiftright

The Big Three, but especially GM, were rich and they could spend fortunes on product lines. The combination of options was staggering in its complexity. With the Big Three, you got 28 flavors; with the Indies, you'd be lucky to get vanilla, chocolate and strawberry.

It was a war of attrition that the Indies could not possibly win.

sda

I just finished reading the '63 Avanti new car brochure on the Old Car Manual Project site. What a great source of reference and what a neat car the Avanti was. Thanks uplanderguy for mentioning that site.