Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

snakeweasel

oldfarmer50 said:

andres3 said:

uplanderguy said:

Is it really random?

No, because illiterate folks don't buy magazine subscriptions at the same rates as people who can read. Except for maybe Playboy.

I don't know but it seemed that once they dropped the girlie pictures the articles weren't as interesting.

I read somewhere just the other day that the pictures are coming back.

snakeweasel

ab348 said:

fintail said:

Were they the ones that gave NUMMI Prizms and NUMMI Corollas different scores, even though they were virtually identical save for badging?

Shhh. Not allowed to discuss such things. Surely no upstanding CR subscriber would submit misleading results?!?

ab348 said:

fintail said:

Were they the ones that gave NUMMI Prizms and NUMMI Corollas different scores, even though they were virtually identical save for badging?

Shhh. Not allowed to discuss such things. Surely no upstanding CR subscriber would submit misleading results?!?

CR has in the past rated two identical items with different badges differently.

graphicguy

oldfarmer50 said:

andres3 said:

uplanderguy said:

Is it really random?

No, because illiterate folks don't buy magazine subscriptions at the same rates as people who can read. Except for maybe Playboy.

I don't know but it seemed that once they dropped the girlie pictures the articles weren't as interesting.

OF....my nearly 20 year old Mustang Cobra has been rock solid. It starts...even after sitting for a couple of months. It runs like a scalded dog. The top goes up and down the way it's supposed to. A/C blows ice cold. Heater will fry you. Even the heated seats work as they should. Clutch is linear. Brakes are fine. Shifter, which takes a little muscle, goes in and out of gears the way it should. Power windows go up and down with a push of a button.

Now, ask me if I can say the same for the CTS? I'll save you the trouble...NO! The wiring is fried!

PS...I hear tell Playboy's nude center folds are making a comeback.

driver100

fintail said:

Right now in Murka it is C300, C350e (plug in hybrid, never seen one), C43, C63.

andres3 said:

Do they still offer a C350 and C400? I remember test driving the C350 and it seemed like a solid choice. The regular CLA didn't interest me, but the CLA AMG did, of course, none to test drive.

And that surprised me...there is a 4 cyl C300 C Class, then we bounce up to C43 6 cyl with 362 hp. I think the 339 hp engine in my E400 is in short supply so got left out of the C300, and though it is supposedly the same engine as last years E300/C400 I think there have been things done to it that made it a target for retesting.

The C43 with 362 hp would be OK with me, but, it probably only comes with sports type tires that would be useless in snow.

I know I should miss the snow these days but you never know if you have to stay back home...health issues, family issues, etc.

driver100

snakeweasel said:

fintail said:

I bet it had good driving dynamics too. The sport model Audis tend to have good driving dynamics,. Driving dynamics are something the Germans have focused on for decades, and for most cases, found success. Whether it be sport, luxury, or usually, varying degrees of both (BMW favoring sport, MB favoring lux, Audo depending on model), driving dynamics are something they understand. This is likely due to driving being a serious business there, and the generally superior condition of their roads. Even my dear old fintail has nice driving dynamics - it floats down the road at speed and handles fairly well (just get used to body roll and the swing axle). I am not sure if I can say more about driving dynamics, but it's fun to use the term

Here is my take on "driving dynamics". It's meaningless if the drivers skill is not up to the dynamics of the car, and let's face it most drivers skills aren't up that high. I would say that for the vast majority of drivers in an emergency situation would do as well in a Chevy as they would an Audi.

That's not the point. People buy 70 inch TVs when they can get by with a 40 inch. They may also spring for HD TV even though they could watch regular TV. The reason, it brings them more enjoyment! Why get a Sonata when you could be driving a Fiat 500?

fintail

At least here we had C400 and C450 for a short time, but the marketing people wanted to move forward with the pricier kinda-AMG cars, I suppose, as they likely have higher margins. You'd want a set of winter tires no doubt, not sure if those were 4Matic or not, the 6cyl W205 C is a rare bird, I have only seen a few.

driver100 said:

And that surprised me...there is a 4 cyl C300 C Class, then we bounce up to C43 6 cyl with 362 hp. I think the 339 hp engine in my E400 is in short supply so got left out of the C300, and though it is supposedly the same engine as last years E300/C400 I think there have been things done to it that made it a target for retesting.

The C43 with 362 hp would be OK with me, but, it probably only comes with sports type tires that would be useless in snow.

I know I should miss the snow these days but you never know if you have to stay back home...health issues, family issues, etc.

fintail

Just like why people buy tall wagons posing as SUVs or lifted trucks or supercars and superbikes that never see more than 70 mph. They feel good even if not used to their potential.

Driving dynamics (fun term to use, it pushes buttons ) also means general composure even at legal speeds.

driver100 said:

That's not the point. People buy 70 inch TVs when they can get by with a 40 inch. They may also spring for HD TV even though they could watch regular TV. The reason, it brings them more enjoyment! Why get a Sonata when you could be driving a Fiat 500?

fintail

Just like why people buy tall wagons posing as SUVs or lifted trucks or supercars and superbikes that never see more than 70 mph. They feel good even if not used to their potential.

Driving dynamics (fun term to use, it pushes buttons ) also means general composure even at legal speeds.

driver100 said:

That's not the point. People buy 70 inch TVs when they can get by with a 40 inch. They may also spring for HD TV even though they could watch regular TV. The reason, it brings them more enjoyment! Why get a Sonata when you could be driving a Fiat 500?

roadburner

snakeweasel said:

fintail said:

I bet it had good driving dynamics too. The sport model Audis tend to have good driving dynamics,. Driving dynamics are something the Germans have focused on for decades, and for most cases, found success. Whether it be sport, luxury, or usually, varying degrees of both (BMW favoring sport, MB favoring lux, Audo depending on model), driving dynamics are something they understand. This is likely due to driving being a serious business there, and the generally superior condition of their roads. Even my dear old fintail has nice driving dynamics - it floats down the road at speed and handles fairly well (just get used to body roll and the swing axle). I am not sure if I can say more about driving dynamics, but it's fun to use the term

Here is my take on "driving dynamics". It's meaningless if the drivers skill is not up to the dynamics of the car, and let's face it most drivers skills aren't up that high. I would say that for the vast majority of drivers in an emergency situation would do as well in a Chevy as they would an Audi.

I agree that the typical US vehicle operator("driver" is far too generous a term) is horribly inept- but that doesn't render cars with superior capabilities irrelevant. The average tin-eared consumer wouldn't know a good sounding speaker if it landed on his/her head; people who are perfectly happy with a $70 soundbar and a $300 LED TV probably outnumber people who appreciate a great HTS by 1000 to 1. Does that mean Klipsch should drop its Reference Series? Or should Martin Logan start cranking out $250 HTIBs? If every manufacturer chooses to cater exclusively to the lowest common denominator we all lose. If better products are on the market there is at least a chance that a growing number of people might come to appreciate them; otherwise we will all drown in a sea of mediocrity.

graphicguy

roadburner said:

snakeweasel said:

fintail said:

I bet it had good driving dynamics too. The sport model Audis tend to have good driving dynamics,. Driving dynamics are something the Germans have focused on for decades, and for most cases, found success. Whether it be sport, luxury, or usually, varying degrees of both (BMW favoring sport, MB favoring lux, Audo depending on model), driving dynamics are something they understand. This is likely due to driving being a serious business there, and the generally superior condition of their roads. Even my dear old fintail has nice driving dynamics - it floats down the road at speed and handles fairly well (just get used to body roll and the swing axle). I am not sure if I can say more about driving dynamics, but it's fun to use the term

Here is my take on "driving dynamics". It's meaningless if the drivers skill is not up to the dynamics of the car, and let's face it most drivers skills aren't up that high. I would say that for the vast majority of drivers in an emergency situation would do as well in a Chevy as they would an Audi.

I agree that the typical US vehicle operator("driver" is far too generous a term) is horribly inept- but that doesn't render cars with superior capabilities irrelevant. The average tin-eared consumer wouldn't know a good sounding speaker if it landed on his/her head; people who are perfectly happy with a $70 soundbar and a $300 LED TV probably outnumber people who appreciate a great HTS by 1000 to 1. Does that mean Klipsch should drop its Reference Series? Or should Martin Logan start cranking out $250 HTIBs? If every manufacturer chooses to cater exclusively to the lowest common denominator we all lose. If better products are on the market there is at least a chance that a growing number of people might come to appreciate them; otherwise we will all drown in a sea of mediocrity.

Amen!

oldfarmer50

snakeweasel said:

fintail said:

I bet it had good driving dynamics too. The sport model Audis tend to have good driving dynamics,. Driving dynamics are something the Germans have focused on for decades, and for most cases, found success. Whether it be sport, luxury, or usually, varying degrees of both (BMW favoring sport, MB favoring lux, Audo depending on model), driving dynamics are something they understand. This is likely due to driving being a serious business there, and the generally superior condition of their roads. Even my dear old fintail has nice driving dynamics - it floats down the road at speed and handles fairly well (just get used to body roll and the swing axle). I am not sure if I can say more about driving dynamics, but it's fun to use the term

Here is my take on "driving dynamics". It's meaningless if the drivers skill is not up to the dynamics of the car, and let's face it most drivers skills aren't up that high. I would say that for the vast majority of drivers in an emergency situation would do as well in a Chevy as they would an Audi.

Interesting point. I wonder if an expert driver in a hooptie would fare better than an average driver in a performance car.

tjc78

Great post @roadburner!

Since I'm also an AV guy like you and GG I can relate.   I find my wife listening to music through her IPhones speaker when we have a rocking system in the living room (and basement, bedroom, etc lol)

I even have a cable that she can plug her phone into the system.  Speaking of that do either of you have one of the Bluetooth boxes that you can stream your phone to your home setup?  Thinking of getting one.  Looks like plenty of options under $100.  

driver100

fintail

Driving dynamics (fun term to use, it pushes buttons ) also means general composure even at legal speeds.

We could all probably get by with 100 h.p. cars, but isn't it nice to have 200 or 300 horses under the hood? Not that you need them all, but it still makes getting onto a highway a lot easier and safer because they are there.

We don't necessarily need great driving dynamics to steer clear of accidents, we need it because it brings a certain amount of enjoyment to the driving experience.

If you are on a bit of a rough road in an inexpensive car, you feel the bumps throughout the car and especially in the steering wheel.....car feels like crap to drive. In a well engineered car you don't notice the bumps as much on your rear, but, the bumps don't get transmitted to the steering wheel. It is the degree of engineering you are willing to pay for to make the car more enjoyable to drive.

I am sure I could survive if I had a 28 inch cathode TV, but I only get one chance at this life, so if I am spending my valuable time watching TV, I want to enjoy it to the max.....on at least a 55 inch HD TV. Do I need it? NO! Do I want it? Oh yeh!

graphicguy

TJC.....Not sure what AVR or Pre-Processor you have in your system, but check to see if it supports Bluetooth, or even WiFi. I know the Pioneer Elite AVR I have supports wireless connection of my iTunes library.

However, if you're looking for something to stream in a specific room, I have this in my bedroom.

B&O Beo Play S3

https://www.beoplay.com/products/beoplays3

List is $300, but I've seen a Groupon floating around to buy it for $130.

By far, the best sounding small Bluetooth speaker I've ever heard....that includes the $300+ ones from Bose, JBL, UE, Beats, etc.

Hope that helps.

graphicguy

driver100 said:

fintail

Driving dynamics (fun term to use, it pushes buttons ) also means general composure even at legal speeds.

We could all probably get by with 100 h.p. cars, but isn't it nice to have 200 or 300 horses under the hood? Not that you need them all, but it still makes getting onto a highway a lot easier and safer because they are there.

We don't necessarily need great driving dynamics to steer clear of accidents, we need it because it brings a certain amount of enjoyment to the driving experience.

If you are on a bit of a rough road in an inexpensive car, you feel the bumps throughout the car and especially in the steering wheel.....car feels like crap to drive. In a well engineered car you don't notice the bumps as much on your rear, but, the bumps don't get transmitted to the steering wheel. It is the degree of engineering you are willing to pay for to make the car more enjoyable to drive.

I am sure I could survive if I had a 28 inch cathode TV, but I only get one chance at this life, so if I am spending my valuable time watching TV, I want to enjoy it to the max.....on at least a 55 inch HD TV. Do I need it? NO! Do I want it? Oh yeh!

Interesting observations, Driver. I agree!

Mentioned before, I rent a lot of cars in different cities for work. I'm always glad to get back in my own cars when I get home (well, maybe if they weren't in the dealer's shop).

Most of them are the lower end stripper models....huge driving differences between those and what I have in my garage.

Do I need 5 sec 0-60 cars? Do I need a car that brakes from 60 in 110 feet? Do I need a car that coddles my posterior without letting it squirm during high speed cornering? Do I need a car that replicates my home stereo in the cabin? Do I need a car that can traverse the worst of roads with little in the way of upsetting me in the cabin? Do I need a car that replicates the build of a bank safe?

Of course not. I don't need any of that.

But boy do I want all of that. And, I'm able to get it.

fintail

On the same note, we could probably all get by with an 89 Metro or similar.

I like to wear a watch, have since I was a kid. I could find a fairly accurate digital watch in a dollar store for literally $1. But I like to have a mechanical watch, and I enjoy it even though it costs insanely more. Do I need something more expensive and likely not as efficient? No, but I enjoy the tech behind it and the feel of it. Make the most of what you have, and treat yourself when you can. Hopefully we all have a long and good time ahead of us, and hearses don't have luggage racks

driver100 said:

fintail

I am sure I could survive if I had a 28 inch cathode TV, but I only get one chance at this life, so if I am spending my valuable time watching TV, I want to enjoy it to the max.....on at least a 55 inch HD TV. Do I need it? NO! Do I want it? Oh yeh!

Michaell

Even at the lower price points, there is a difference in feel and driving dynamics.

I drove an '06 ION for years. It was competent - equivalent to the '89 Metro mentioned above.

I replaced it with a '13 Hyundai Elantra GT (hatch). Amazing upgrade in NVH, though I didn't notice much of a difference in performance (140HP vs. 148HP). Better tech (XM, heated seats, different steering settings). I liked driving it.

Last summer, the Elantra got traded in for a '16 VW Jetta. Similar prices and specs. But man, what a difference in feel. The Jetta feels better screwed together than the Hyundai, and the driving experience is much, much better. Even though the Jetta was built in Mexico, I understand the comments here about German engineering.

In addition, even though the Jetta has only 2 more HP, the little 1.4T engine puts out a whole lot more torque, and I can feel it every time I press the accelerator. And, the level of standard tech has improved (back up camera, push button start).

I'm not knocking Hyundai - I seriously considered a Sonata Sport before deciding on the Jetta. They make some great cars and the level of equipment for the money is probably second to none, all throughout the model range.

I'm a big believer in that there are no bad cars, just bad choices. Don't by a convertible when you need a minivan, stuff like that.

stickguy

I really like the 1.8t motor in our Jetta, now that I have been driving it regularly. Pulls really well, and loves to run at highway speeds. Amazed at the performance from such small displacement.

One reason I am happy to look at brands with the now ubiquitous 2.0t engines. Plenty for me.

andres3

snakeweasel said:

fintail said:

I bet it had good driving dynamics too. The sport model Audis tend to have good driving dynamics,. Driving dynamics are something the Germans have focused on for decades, and for most cases, found success. Whether it be sport, luxury, or usually, varying degrees of both (BMW favoring sport, MB favoring lux, Audo depending on model), driving dynamics are something they understand. This is likely due to driving being a serious business there, and the generally superior condition of their roads. Even my dear old fintail has nice driving dynamics - it floats down the road at speed and handles fairly well (just get used to body roll and the swing axle). I am not sure if I can say more about driving dynamics, but it's fun to use the term

Here is my take on "driving dynamics". It's meaningless if the drivers skill is not up to the dynamics of the car, and let's face it most drivers skills aren't up that high. I would say that for the vast majority of drivers in an emergency situation would do as well in a Chevy as they would an Audi.

Are we talking a Chevy SUV vs. an Audi lower center of gravity car though? I know apples to oranges, but the comparison is valid.

Many buy bigger SUV's thinking "bigger" is safer, only to eventually find out that SUV's are roll-over prone, making them far more dangerous as rollovers are a lot more serious than a typical fender bender. While not impossible to roll a car over, it is much more difficult.

I'd also argue that the usual panic untrained reaction to an emergency is to overreact. That would typically mean a mistake that creates a driver error and input to the vehicle that exceeds the vehicle's limits. The Audi's limits being much higher than all Chevy's less the Corvette, this would mean driving dynamics do matter.

andres3

stickguy said:

I really like the 1.8t motor in our Jetta, now that I have been driving it regularly. Pulls really well, and loves to run at highway speeds. Amazed at the performance from such small displacement.

One reason I am happy to look at brands with the now ubiquitous 2.0t engines. Plenty for me.

Another thing I would note positive about VW's latest and greatest 1.8 is that it is smooth and quiet while accelerating at mild to mid-range RPM's. Wife's Alltrack isn't yet to 1,000 miles so haven't much pushed it past 4,000 RPM.

Still, I think if someone didn't know they'd be hard pressed to not think it was a bigger V6.

andres3

roadburner said:

snakeweasel said:

fintail said:

I bet it had good driving dynamics too. The sport model Audis tend to have good driving dynamics,. Driving dynamics are something the Germans have focused on for decades, and for most cases, found success. Whether it be sport, luxury, or usually, varying degrees of both (BMW favoring sport, MB favoring lux, Audo depending on model), driving dynamics are something they understand. This is likely due to driving being a serious business there, and the generally superior condition of their roads. Even my dear old fintail has nice driving dynamics - it floats down the road at speed and handles fairly well (just get used to body roll and the swing axle). I am not sure if I can say more about driving dynamics, but it's fun to use the term

Here is my take on "driving dynamics". It's meaningless if the drivers skill is not up to the dynamics of the car, and let's face it most drivers skills aren't up that high. I would say that for the vast majority of drivers in an emergency situation would do as well in a Chevy as they would an Audi.

I agree that the typical US vehicle operator("driver" is far too generous a term) is horribly inept- but that doesn't render cars with superior capabilities irrelevant. The average tin-eared consumer wouldn't know a good sounding speaker if it landed on his/her head; people who are perfectly happy with a $70 soundbar and a $300 LED TV probably outnumber people who appreciate a great HTS by 1000 to 1. Does that mean Klipsch should drop its Reference Series? Or should Martin Logan start cranking out $250 HTIBs? If every manufacturer chooses to cater exclusively to the lowest common denominator we all lose. If better products are on the market there is at least a chance that a growing number of people might come to appreciate them; otherwise we will all drown in a sea of mediocrity.

Great post! - Is their an Edmunds Hall of Fame? Post of the Month award? I nominate this one.

andres3

fintail said:

Were they the ones that gave NUMMI Prizms and NUMMI Corollas different scores, even though they were virtually identical save for badging?

I also laugh when rudimentary ICE issues impact scores. User error in 95% of cases no doubt.

uplanderguy said:

Is it really random?

Sometimes, I've chuckled over the years when things like audio systems show differing reliability between the six and eight-cylinder versions.

But you are right, they take no advertising money, a good thing.

Were the scores vastly different, or just slightly different? Probably explainable under a standard deviation statistically. I remember Prisms being highly rated just like Corollas myself. In fact, the magazine is probably one of the sources that told people to just go ahead and save a few thousand opting to forgo the Toyota badge.

Also, without knowing more about production information, it is hard to judge two different vehicles that on the coversheet or spec sheet may appear to be the same, but underneath those layers might be quite different (like the different engine option or radio option).

First, are they made at the same plant; the same building; the same line; the same employees; and the same machines/robots?
Second, are all Prisms made on Fridays and Corollas M-Th? Or do they roll out the assembly line in random order. If they aren't produced and manufactured randomly, then why expect the same results?

Mr_Shiftright

uplanderguy said:

Here's the Powers link again--2014-model year cars rated for reliability:

http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA109095222.PDF

Some interesting things there to consider: The data only comes from the prior 12 months of the car's life, not 3 years---so early warranty glitches wouldn't show; JD also anticipates a predicted increase in unreliability due to all the tech being packed into newer cars; and I also noticed that there's an appreciable difference between say #1 and #10---some 20% or so more problems.

uplanderguy

Second, are all Prisms made on Fridays and Corollas M-Th? Or do they roll out the assembly line in random order. If they aren't produced and manufactured randomly, then why expect the same results?

I'd be stunned if that were the production case. I know when I toured Lordstown in 1980 (yes, I know that's a lifetime ago), a Chevy was followed on the line by a Pontiac, another Chevy, etc. I do remember multiple cars in a row being the same color though.

uplanderguy

Some interesting things there to consider: The data only comes from the prior 12 months of the car's life, not 3 years---so early warranty glitches wouldn't show; JD also anticipates a predicted increase in unreliability due to all the tech being packed into newer cars; and I also noticed that there's an appreciable difference between say #1 and #10---some 20% or so more problems.

The link is for three-year-old vehicles. Comments here made it seem as if this were a new-car quality survey, and it isn't.

I really don't care if a 2014 car had warranty issues in its early life; if I were a used-car buyer I'd like to know the most-recent information, which is what that link is about.

suydam

andres3 said:

fintail said:

Were they the ones that gave NUMMI Prizms and NUMMI Corollas different scores, even though they were virtually identical save for badging?

I also laugh when rudimentary ICE issues impact scores. User error in 95% of cases no doubt.

uplanderguy said:

Is it really random?

Sometimes, I've chuckled over the years when things like audio systems show differing reliability between the six and eight-cylinder versions.

But you are right, they take no advertising money, a good thing.

Were the scores vastly different, or just slightly different? Probably explainable under a standard deviation statistically. I remember Prisms being highly rated just like Corollas myself. In fact, the magazine is probably one of the sources that told people to just go ahead and save a few thousand opting to forgo the Toyota badge.

Also, without knowing more about production information, it is hard to judge two different vehicles that on the coversheet or spec sheet may appear to be the same, but underneath those layers might be quite different (like the different engine option or radio option).

First, are they made at the same plant; the same building; the same line; the same employees; and the same machines/robots?
Second, are all Prisms made on Fridays and Corollas M-Th? Or do they roll out the assembly line in random order. If they aren't produced and manufactured randomly, then why expect the same results?

I bought a Pontiac Vibe because CR explained that it was virtually identical to the Toyota Matrix and rated both well. I hated the car but it was indeed reliable. I remember the Prizm being explained that way as well. You just can't get away from the fact that GM made some truly awful, unreliable cars in the 80s and 90s. Especially in the small car sector where Honda and Toyota excelled.

Mr_Shiftright

Says right there: "The study, now in its 28th year, examines problems experienced during the past 12 months by original owners of 2014 model-year vehicles."

uplanderguy

I sure must have walked between the raindrops in the '80's and '90's. I had four new '80's Chevys and four new '90's Chevys between my wife and I. The only one that had a major problem was the '85 Celebrity, which lost its 3rd and 4th gears at 37K miles. Even though the car was 13K miles out of the powertrain warranty, GM replaced the trans for $100. Ironically, when I ordered that car, I didn't want the four-speed trans, new that year on FWD's, as my friend's Dad, a GM service manager, told me to steer clear of it. Near the end of the model year it was all I could order, no doubt to get their CAFE up.

uplanderguy

Again:

I really don't care if a 2014 car had warranty issues in its early life; if I were a used-car buyer I'd like to know the most-recent information, which is what that link is about. It is about 2014-model cars...period.

Mr_Shiftright

So then you wouldn't want to know that some 2014 car had the engine torn out of it when it was brand new? I sure would. I'd be interested to know the year-by-year reliability rate and what TSBs and recalls were done.

uplanderguy

Of course that survey doesn't address individual cars...no survey does, again of course.

Mr_Shiftright

Well it's always a bit of a crap shoot. These surveys are like a rough filter---they will keep you away from the notoriously bad cars and steer you toward much better odds.

Then too if we wear the shoes of the owner whose car scored #1, and only had 110 problems per 100 cars, well if he were in that 10% he might not be happy with the survey anyway.

murphydog

FWIW I just sent up a pair of Sonos Play 1 speakers and the sound is fantastic. They are Wi-Fi not bluetooth. I am told that Wi-Fi has more bandwidth than bluetooth allowing for better sound. Not sure if that is true or not, but I do know I like how they sound together in my living room.

As far as driving dynamics - I say to each his own. Get what you like to drive and don't try to convince others that your choice would work for them. What this meant for me and my wife? We both are very happy trading the Lexus RX350 for a BMW X3. We both prefer to drive the X3. But I would not expect or suggest that would be true for somebody else.

The only time I see a real issue is when a married couple can't agree - neighbors are in this boat. She wants to upgrade her 10 year old CRV, but he dislikes 'em, would prefer the Mazda CX-5. Both are stubborn so this should be fun to watch!

Michaell

murphydog said:

FWIW I just sent up a pair of Sonos Play 1 speakers and the sound is fantastic. They are Wi-Fi not bluetooth. I am told that Wi-Fi has more bandwidth than bluetooth allowing for better sound. Not sure if that is true or not, but I do know I like how they sound together in my living room.

As far as driving dynamics - I say to each his own. Get what you like to drive and don't try to convince others that your choice would work for them. What this meant for me and my wife? We both are very happy trading the Lexus RX350 for a BMW X3. We both prefer to drive the X3. But I would not expect or suggest that would be true for somebody else.

The only time I see a real issue is when a married couple can't agree - neighbors are in this boat. She wants to upgrade her 10 year old CRV, but he dislikes 'em, would prefer the Mazda CX-5. Both are stubborn so this should be fun to watch!

If it's her car, she should make the decision.

tjc78

graphicguy said:

TJC.....Not sure what AVR or Pre-Processor you have in your system, but check to see if it supports Bluetooth, or even WiFi. I know the Pioneer Elite AVR I have supports wireless connection of my iTunes library.

However, if you're looking for something to stream in a specific room, I have this in my bedroom.

B&O Beo Play S3

https://www.beoplay.com/products/beoplays3

List is $300, but I've seen a Groupon floating around to buy it for $130.

By far, the best sounding small Bluetooth speaker I've ever heard....that includes the $300+ ones from Bose, JBL, UE, Beats, etc.

Hope that helps.

I like that B&O, nice piece. My wife bought my a Bose version that I know she shelled out some bucks for. We use it outside mostly.

My receiver is an aging piece I just can't seem to part with (Yamaha RX-V1) so no wireless. Here is one option I'm considering, https://www.crutchfield.com/S-0SCTJaoexSv/p_532BTA10/Harman-Kardon-BTA-10.html. For the price it would be hard to go wrong. I need to look and see if they have one that has a Digital output, the Yamaha has a really good D/A converter that I'm sure would yield better sound.

stickguy

more interesting with those reliablity studies is laying the numbers out against previous years. Overall IIRC the graph lines are much lower, as the bar of all quality keeps going up. Same for the gap usually between top and bottom (and in the middle, there tends to be a whole lotta statistical insignificance).

that, and look at the actual numbers. saying 1 car is 1/2 as reliable as another sounds terrible. but putting it as 1 problem per thousand vs. 2 per thousand seems much less significant!

tjc78

Michaell said:

murphydog said:

FWIW I just sent up a pair of Sonos Play 1 speakers and the sound is fantastic. They are Wi-Fi not bluetooth. I am told that Wi-Fi has more bandwidth than bluetooth allowing for better sound. Not sure if that is true or not, but I do know I like how they sound together in my living room.

As far as driving dynamics - I say to each his own. Get what you like to drive and don't try to convince others that your choice would work for them. What this meant for me and my wife? We both are very happy trading the Lexus RX350 for a BMW X3. We both prefer to drive the X3. But I would not expect or suggest that would be true for somebody else.

The only time I see a real issue is when a married couple can't agree - neighbors are in this boat. She wants to upgrade her 10 year old CRV, but he dislikes 'em, would prefer the Mazda CX-5. Both are stubborn so this should be fun to watch!

If it's her car, she should make the decision.

LOL, I'm so lucky my wife is flexible with cars. I did get her the Enclave she really liked, but TBH it was my favorite at the time too. She is already tired of me talking about it's replacement at the end of the year.

andres3

Michaell said:

Even at the lower price points, there is a difference in feel and driving dynamics.

I drove an '06 ION for years. It was competent - equivalent to the '89 Metro mentioned above.

I replaced it with a '13 Hyundai Elantra GT (hatch). Amazing upgrade in NVH, though I didn't notice much of a difference in performance (140HP vs. 148HP). Better tech (XM, heated seats, different steering settings). I liked driving it.

Last summer, the Elantra got traded in for a '16 VW Jetta. Similar prices and specs. But man, what a difference in feel. The Jetta feels better screwed together than the Hyundai, and the driving experience is much, much better. Even though the Jetta was built in Mexico, I understand the comments here about German engineering.

In addition, even though the Jetta has only 2 more HP, the little 1.4T engine puts out a whole lot more torque, and I can feel it every time I press the accelerator. And, the level of standard tech has improved (back up camera, push button start).

I'm not knocking Hyundai - I seriously considered a Sonata Sport before deciding on the Jetta. They make some great cars and the level of equipment for the money is probably second to none, all throughout the model range.

I'm a big believer in that there are no bad cars, just bad choices. Don't by a convertible when you need a minivan, stuff like that.

One thing I'll disagree with is that there are no bad cars. Cars at the bottom of the charts perennially for either JDP or CR (most of which are consistent on both) have major issues. @graphicguy CTS is an example of a bad car. Even a Caddy fan would have trouble spinning his last 3 Caddy experiences into a positive light.

Some people might be more tolerant of problems and short-lived parts and components, but some cars would try the patience of even the most tolerant among us.

stickguy

with us, I will do all the legwork, analysis, options picking, etc., based on her critieria. But for her car, she ultimately gets (semi) final say. I will draw the line at a certain trim level or required options maybe, but she picks the model and color.

Next car for her will be an interesting debate, mostly around how big it needs to be. Will certainly be another CUV of some sort. I keep trying to convince her to trade the Acura in for something newer/more feature laden, but she keeps saying she likes her car. Though an X1 or X3 could sway her. Pretty sure her resistance has more to do with not trusting me to not steal the new one out from under her. Though if we do get a new one, it could be the only one (with maybe a junker or toy in the garage for spare car around town duty)

andres3

uplanderguy said:

I sure must have walked between the raindrops in the '80's and '90's. I had four new '80's Chevys and four new '90's Chevys between my wife and I. The only one that had a major problem was the '85 Celebrity, which lost its 3rd and 4th gears at 37K miles. Even though the car was 13K miles out of the powertrain warranty, GM replaced the trans for $100. Ironically, when I ordered that car, I didn't want the four-speed trans, new that year on FWD's, as my friend's Dad, a GM service manager, told me to steer clear of it. Near the end of the model year it was all I could order, no doubt to get their CAFE up.

Did you buy a lot of trucks in the 80's or 90's.? I generally find people were more satisfied by Big 3 trucks than the cars in the 20th Century.

Also, you mention only "major" problems. Did you have any Chevy's that caused death by a thousand nails of minor problems?

jmonroe

oldfarmer50 said:

snakeweasel said:

fintail said:

I bet it had good driving dynamics too. The sport model Audis tend to have good driving dynamics,. Driving dynamics are something the Germans have focused on for decades, and for most cases, found success. Whether it be sport, luxury, or usually, varying degrees of both (BMW favoring sport, MB favoring lux, Audo depending on model), driving dynamics are something they understand. This is likely due to driving being a serious business there, and the generally superior condition of their roads. Even my dear old fintail has nice driving dynamics - it floats down the road at speed and handles fairly well (just get used to body roll and the swing axle). I am not sure if I can say more about driving dynamics, but it's fun to use the term

Here is my take on "driving dynamics". It's meaningless if the drivers skill is not up to the dynamics of the car, and let's face it most drivers skills aren't up that high. I would say that for the vast majority of drivers in an emergency situation would do as well in a Chevy as they would an Audi.

Interesting point. I wonder if an expert driver in a hooptie would fare better than an average driver in a performance car.

YES.

Notice that I kept this answer short for @driver100's benefit.

If you would like for me to expound on my answer let me know...BUT, @driver100 ain't gonna like it.

jmonroe

stickguy

some people (not saying Uplander is one of them!) never considered build quality stuff as problems. So as long as the car started and ran, random trim pieces falling off, squeaks and rattles, etc. were not counted. Basically the car would decay around them but was considered reliable with no major systems failing.

and this is not just a D3 concept. Volvo, heck all Euros, and plenty of Asian brands have had advocates that did this.

andres3

jmonroe said:

oldfarmer50 said:

snakeweasel said:

fintail said:

I bet it had good driving dynamics too. The sport model Audis tend to have good driving dynamics,. Driving dynamics are something the Germans have focused on for decades, and for most cases, found success. Whether it be sport, luxury, or usually, varying degrees of both (BMW favoring sport, MB favoring lux, Audo depending on model), driving dynamics are something they understand. This is likely due to driving being a serious business there, and the generally superior condition of their roads. Even my dear old fintail has nice driving dynamics - it floats down the road at speed and handles fairly well (just get used to body roll and the swing axle). I am not sure if I can say more about driving dynamics, but it's fun to use the term

Here is my take on "driving dynamics". It's meaningless if the drivers skill is not up to the dynamics of the car, and let's face it most drivers skills aren't up that high. I would say that for the vast majority of drivers in an emergency situation would do as well in a Chevy as they would an Audi.

Interesting point. I wonder if an expert driver in a hooptie would fare better than an average driver in a performance car.

YES.

Notice that I kept this answer short for @driver100's benefit.

If you would like for me to expound on my answer let me know...BUT, @driver100 ain't gonna like it.

jmonroe

That's a tough loaded question though. I think the average driver being put through one weekend HPDE education/event would fare better, depending on the testing criteria.

Is the test an accident avoidance lane change exercise, or following their accident tally over a 15 year period? Does the expert driver tend to allow himself to drive distracted more or less than the average driver. These would be the key issues in answering the questions correctly.

28firefighter

Michaell said:

murphydog said:

FWIW I just sent up a pair of Sonos Play 1 speakers and the sound is fantastic. They are Wi-Fi not bluetooth. I am told that Wi-Fi has more bandwidth than bluetooth allowing for better sound. Not sure if that is true or not, but I do know I like how they sound together in my living room.

As far as driving dynamics - I say to each his own. Get what you like to drive and don't try to convince others that your choice would work for them. What this meant for me and my wife? We both are very happy trading the Lexus RX350 for a BMW X3. We both prefer to drive the X3. But I would not expect or suggest that would be true for somebody else.

The only time I see a real issue is when a married couple can't agree - neighbors are in this boat. She wants to upgrade her 10 year old CRV, but he dislikes 'em, would prefer the Mazda CX-5. Both are stubborn so this should be fun to watch!

If it's her car, she should make the decision.

Happy wife, happy life. Rookie if he is arguing about it...

ab348

andres3 said:

@graphicguy CTS is an example of a bad car.

To my knowledge he did not have a single complaint about the car in his first 13 months of ownership. The only issue I remember him mentioning was the recall.

There's a lot to be said for acquiring new vehicles on 24-month leases.

driver100

jmonroe said:

oldfarmer50 said:

snakeweasel said:

fintail said:

I bet it had good driving dynamics too. The sport model Audis tend to have good driving dynamics,. Driving dynamics are something the Germans have focused on for decades, and for most cases, found success. Whether it be sport, luxury, or usually, varying degrees of both (BMW favoring sport, MB favoring lux, Audo depending on model), driving dynamics are something they understand. This is likely due to driving being a serious business there, and the generally superior condition of their roads. Even my dear old fintail has nice driving dynamics - it floats down the road at speed and handles fairly well (just get used to body roll and the swing axle). I am not sure if I can say more about driving dynamics, but it's fun to use the term

Here is my take on "driving dynamics". It's meaningless if the drivers skill is not up to the dynamics of the car, and let's face it most drivers skills aren't up that high. I would say that for the vast majority of drivers in an emergency situation would do as well in a Chevy as they would an Audi.

Interesting point. I wonder if an expert driver in a hooptie would fare better than an average driver in a performance car.

YES.

Notice that I kept this answer short for @driver100's benefit.

If you would like for me to expound on my answer let me know...BUT, @driver100 ain't gonna like it.

jmonroe

That is one of the best posts you have made, straight and to the point.

No need to expound , why ruin your best post yet!

graphicguy

tjc78 said:

graphicguy said:

TJC.....Not sure what AVR or Pre-Processor you have in your system, but check to see if it supports Bluetooth, or even WiFi. I know the Pioneer Elite AVR I have supports wireless connection of my iTunes library.

However, if you're looking for something to stream in a specific room, I have this in my bedroom.

B&O Beo Play S3

https://www.beoplay.com/products/beoplays3

List is $300, but I've seen a Groupon floating around to buy it for $130.

By far, the best sounding small Bluetooth speaker I've ever heard....that includes the $300+ ones from Bose, JBL, UE, Beats, etc.

Hope that helps.

I like that B&O, nice piece. My wife bought my a Bose version that I know she shelled out some bucks for. We use it outside mostly.

My receiver is an aging piece I just can't seem to part with (Yamaha RX-V1) so no wireless. Here is one option I'm considering, https://www.crutchfield.com/S-0SCTJaoexSv/p_532BTA10/Harman-Kardon-BTA-10.html. For the price it would be hard to go wrong. I need to look and see if they have one that has a Digital output, the Yamaha has a really good D/A converter that I'm sure would yield better sound.

That RX-V1 was top of the line, at the time (thinking early '00s?). Matter of fact, that piece was something of a legend in HT circles back then. I undersand your unwillingness to part with it.

Hard to go wrong with that HK BTA receiver. Put it in the audio chain and let me know how it works.

I tend to have my iPhone with me throughout the house. So, that means having a Bluetooth speaker is the rooms I frequent most since 90% of the time I'm playing music, listening to an audio book, or listening to a podcast stored on the phone.

Main listening area (and HT room) has all the rest of the gear. Just bought a turntable at an estate sale a month or so ago. Guy was widower, living alone, getting ready to move to assisted living. Had a NICE stereo set up with all MacIntosh Electronics, a Nakimichi Dragon Cassette player/recorder, a REVOX Reel-to-reel, a Thorens turntable (which I snagged). Apparently, he had some electrostatic speakers (assuming Magnepan) that one of the relatives stole.....er......inherited. I tried to buy the entire package but was way off on the electronics, as that stuff brought insane prices. Surprised I got the turntable for a couple hundred given how popular vinyl is now, and how much the rest of the gear sold for.

Talked to him briefly. He had Alzheimers and would go in and out of knowing what you (or he) was saying. His daughter was close by and kept reminding him of what the conversation's topic was as we spoke. Apparently, he had a vinyl collection that numbered over 1,000 (someone got a gold mine with that), that was bought in its entirety. He had a bunch of reel-to-reel tapes that essentially was a back up of all his vinyl. He used cassettes in his car.

Seemed like a nice man. Sorry to see the state he was in.

andres3

ab348 said:

andres3 said:

@graphicguy CTS is an example of a bad car.

To my knowledge he did not have a single complaint about the car in his first 13 months of ownership. The only issue I remember him mentioning was the recall.

There's a lot to be said for acquiring new vehicles on 24-month leases.

So if GG got a 12-month lease on his CTS, the car would have received an A. But since I don't know of anyone with 13 month or less leases, that's a problem for GM. Also, it seems to me the vast majority of recalls don't require immediate "stop use" notices.

If I'd have returned my Neon at 35,999 miles I probably would have given it a B- or C+ at the time.

Michaell

graphicguy said:

tjc78 said:

graphicguy said:

TJC.....Not sure what AVR or Pre-Processor you have in your system, but check to see if it supports Bluetooth, or even WiFi. I know the Pioneer Elite AVR I have supports wireless connection of my iTunes library.

However, if you're looking for something to stream in a specific room, I have this in my bedroom.

B&O Beo Play S3

https://www.beoplay.com/products/beoplays3

List is $300, but I've seen a Groupon floating around to buy it for $130.

By far, the best sounding small Bluetooth speaker I've ever heard....that includes the $300+ ones from Bose, JBL, UE, Beats, etc.

Hope that helps.

I like that B&O, nice piece. My wife bought my a Bose version that I know she shelled out some bucks for. We use it outside mostly.

My receiver is an aging piece I just can't seem to part with (Yamaha RX-V1) so no wireless. Here is one option I'm considering, https://www.crutchfield.com/S-0SCTJaoexSv/p_532BTA10/Harman-Kardon-BTA-10.html. For the price it would be hard to go wrong. I need to look and see if they have one that has a Digital output, the Yamaha has a really good D/A converter that I'm sure would yield better sound.

That RX-V1 was top of the line, at the time (thinking early '00s?). Matter of fact, that piece was something of a legend in HT circles back then. I undersand your unwillingness to part with it.

Hard to go wrong with that HK BTA receiver. Put it in the audio chain and let me know how it works.

I tend to have my iPhone with me throughout the house. So, that means having a Bluetooth speaker is the rooms I frequent most since 90% of the time I'm playing music, listening to an audio book, or listening to a podcast stored on the phone.

Main listening area (and HT room) has all the rest of the gear. Just bought a turntable at an estate sale a month or so ago. Guy was widower, living alone, getting ready to move to assisted living. Had a NICE stereo set up with all MacIntosh Electronics, a Nakimichi Dragon Cassette player/recorder, a REVOX Reel-to-reel, a Thorens turntable (which I snagged). Apparently, he had some electrostatic speakers (assuming Magnepan) that one of the relatives stole.....er......inherited. I tried to buy the entire package but was way off on the electronics, as that stuff brought insane prices. Surprised I got the turntable for a couple hundred given how popular vinyl is now, and how much the rest of the gear sold for.

Talked to him briefly. He had Alzheimers and would go in and out of knowing what you (or he) was saying. His daughter was close by and kept reminding him of what the conversation's topic was as we spoke. Apparently, he had a vinyl collection that numbered over 1,000 (someone got a gold mine with that), that was bought in its entirety. He had a bunch of reel-to-reel tapes that essentially was a back up of all his vinyl. He used cassettes in his car.

Seemed like a nice man. Sorry to see the state he was in.

@graphicguy - I recently picked up a book called "The Revenge of Analog". Great stuff about how society is coming back to the way things were before digital - vinyl albums, books instead of Kindle, paper notebooks (great stories about Moleskine, if you're into that kind of stuff). board games, etc.

Highly recommended.

suydam

Michaell said:

graphicguy said:

tjc78 said:

graphicguy said:

TJC.....Not sure what AVR or Pre-Processor you have in your system, but check to see if it supports Bluetooth, or even WiFi. I know the Pioneer Elite AVR I have supports wireless connection of my iTunes library.

However, if you're looking for something to stream in a specific room, I have this in my bedroom.

B&O Beo Play S3

https://www.beoplay.com/products/beoplays3

List is $300, but I've seen a Groupon floating around to buy it for $130.

By far, the best sounding small Bluetooth speaker I've ever heard....that includes the $300+ ones from Bose, JBL, UE, Beats, etc.

Hope that helps.

I like that B&O, nice piece. My wife bought my a Bose version that I know she shelled out some bucks for. We use it outside mostly.

My receiver is an aging piece I just can't seem to part with (Yamaha RX-V1) so no wireless. Here is one option I'm considering, https://www.crutchfield.com/S-0SCTJaoexSv/p_532BTA10/Harman-Kardon-BTA-10.html. For the price it would be hard to go wrong. I need to look and see if they have one that has a Digital output, the Yamaha has a really good D/A converter that I'm sure would yield better sound.

That RX-V1 was top of the line, at the time (thinking early '00s?). Matter of fact, that piece was something of a legend in HT circles back then. I undersand your unwillingness to part with it.

Hard to go wrong with that HK BTA receiver. Put it in the audio chain and let me know how it works.

I tend to have my iPhone with me throughout the house. So, that means having a Bluetooth speaker is the rooms I frequent most since 90% of the time I'm playing music, listening to an audio book, or listening to a podcast stored on the phone.

Main listening area (and HT room) has all the rest of the gear. Just bought a turntable at an estate sale a month or so ago. Guy was widower, living alone, getting ready to move to assisted living. Had a NICE stereo set up with all MacIntosh Electronics, a Nakimichi Dragon Cassette player/recorder, a REVOX Reel-to-reel, a Thorens turntable (which I snagged). Apparently, he had some electrostatic speakers (assuming Magnepan) that one of the relatives stole.....er......inherited. I tried to buy the entire package but was way off on the electronics, as that stuff brought insane prices. Surprised I got the turntable for a couple hundred given how popular vinyl is now, and how much the rest of the gear sold for.

Talked to him briefly. He had Alzheimers and would go in and out of knowing what you (or he) was saying. His daughter was close by and kept reminding him of what the conversation's topic was as we spoke. Apparently, he had a vinyl collection that numbered over 1,000 (someone got a gold mine with that), that was bought in its entirety. He had a bunch of reel-to-reel tapes that essentially was a back up of all his vinyl. He used cassettes in his car.

Seemed like a nice man. Sorry to see the state he was in.

@graphicguy - I recently picked up a book called "The Revenge of Analog". Great stuff about how society is coming back to the way things were before digital - vinyl albums, books instead of Kindle, paper notebooks (great stories about Moleskine, if you're into that kind of stuff). board games, etc.

Highly recommended.

We got rid of all that stuff when we moved to the condo. Pretty much had to give it away as no one wants it anymore. I have a very nice small speaker that my iPhone fits into when I'm in the mood for sound. But more often I listen to music thru ear buds at the gym, Sirius in the car, and actual live performances about once a month. We really simplified our life when we moved. Nothing in the garage either except our Volt and a couple of stored boxes.