2015 Kia Optima Lease Questions

raymos24

kyfdx said:

How do the numbers in MA look for 24 months and 10k per year for a 2015 SXL? Would the extra lease cash make it a better deal? Chances are I might buy the car at the end of the lease so is the 2 year a better move? Also, one dealer offered me a 500 dollar incentive for being a VW owner and then another 500 for actually trading it in. Are conquest and competitive incentives valid this month? 

Kia doesn't offer 10K/yr on 24 month leases... 24 mo, 12K/yr .00085 MF and 52% residual. $7500 lease cash. No info on conquest incentives.

Is it me but isn't this a much better deal than the 36/10k? I think this is the way to go. 

kyfdx

raymos24 said:

kyfdx said:

raymos24 said:

How do the numbers in MA look for 24 months and 10k per year for a 2015 SXL? Would the extra lease cash make it a better deal? Chances are I might buy the car at the end of the lease so is the 2 year a better move? Also, one dealer offered me a 500 dollar incentive for being a VW owner and then another 500 for actually trading it in. Are conquest and competitive incentives valid this month? 

Kia doesn't offer 10K/yr on 24 month leases...

24 mo, 12K/yr

.00085 MF and 52% residual. $7500 lease cash.

No info on conquest incentives.

Is it me but isn't this a much better deal than the 36/10k? I think this is the way to go. 

Run the numbers both ways.. and, see what you get. Doubtful the payments will vary by much, between the two terms.

raymos24

So, I have started to get offers from dealers in a 150 miles radius. I have been asking for the selling price of the vehicle before any rebates and incentives so I can compare them equally. There is one offer that I have a question about. One dealer offered me a price of 31,500 with 1.9% and 32,500 with .9%. Is this normal practice for a dealer? I asked for the selling price but it is pretty obvious they are trying to make something off the interest rate. They also added the price would be different if the vehicle is leased. I was under the impression the price should be the same whether leased, financed or bough cash? Maybe, I'm just too naïve for this haha.

Michaell

raymos24 said:

So, I have started to get offers from dealers in a 150 miles radius. I have been asking for the selling price of the vehicle before any rebates and incentives so I can compare them equally. There is one offer that I have a question about. One dealer offered me a price of 31,500 with 1.9% and 32,500 with .9%. Is this normal practice for a dealer? I asked for the selling price but it is pretty obvious they are trying to make something off the interest rate. They also added the price would be different if the vehicle is leased. I was under the impression the price should be the same whether leased, financed or bough cash? Maybe, I'm just too naïve for this haha.

Yes, dealers can mark up the interest rate on a loan for a bit of extra profit.

I agree that the selling price - before incentives - should be the same regardless of lease, buy or finance. Be advised that some of the incentives are different for leasing than they are for buying or financing. But, if you've asked for pre-incentive pricing, that should eliminate that point of confusion.

raymos24

So, I think I may have the deal I can;t pass up. Let me know how these numbers look:

2015 Optima SXL
MSRP:36665
Discount: 4155
Rebate:5000
Cap cost:27500
Taxes:726.22
Dealer Fees: 489
Cash Down: 1500 (Covered by trading in my 2006 Passat with 185K miles)

Total monthy: 324
for 36 months/10k miles

Sounds like a winner? The math isnt adding up for me though. I am getting 299 a month with a net cap cost of 27500 (do you add the taxes and dealer fee here?) and residual of 17594 and a money factor of .00049. Am I wrong?

Michaell

4324/

raymos24 said:

So, I think I may have the deal I can;t pass up. Let me know how these numbers look:

2015 Optima SXL
MSRP:36665
Discount: 4155
Rebate:5000
Cap cost:27500
Taxes:726.22
Dealer Fees: 489
Cash Down: 1500 (Covered by trading in my 2006 Passat with 185K miles)

Total monthy: 324
for 36 months/10k miles

Sounds like a winner? The math isnt adding up for me though. I am getting 299 a month with a net cap cost of 27500 (do you add the taxes and dealer fee here?) and residual of 17594 and a money factor of .00049. Am I wrong?

$324/mo for a car that stickers at close to $37K is a pretty great deal.

I assume the taxes and fees being covered by the trade in, but that could be the difference between the $299 and the $324 (about $900 over 36 months).

raymos24

Yea the taxes and fees are covered by trade in. Do I have the formula wrong? I am getting under 324 a month. 

Michaell

raymos24 said:

Yea the taxes and fees are covered by trade in. Do I have the formula wrong? I am getting under 324 a month. 

I would confirm the cap cost that the dealer is using in their calculations.

raymos24

Yes I will tomorrow. I  am getting 299. Can you confirm the way to calculate the monthly payment? Does the cap cost include the taxes and fees eveb if my trade is covering it and then some?

Michaell

raymos24 said:

Yes I will tomorrow. I  am getting 299. Can you confirm the way to calculate the monthly payment? Does the cap cost include the taxes and fees eveb if my trade is covering it and then some?

Here is an article that shows you how to build a spreadsheet to calculate a lease payment:

http://www.edmunds.com/car-leasing/calculate-your-own-lease-payment.html

You either pay the taxes and fees up front, or they are added into the cap cost. Can't be both.

raymos24

Ok sounds good to me. I had the deal in place that my trade would cover taxes and fees. It looks like they are calculating my payment with my trade and thr taxes and fees on top of it all. Intetesting. Also, do yoh know if Kia gives a 2 week grace period with conquest incentives? The salesman said he would look into it. 

Michaell

raymos24 said:

Ok sounds good to me. I had the deal in place that my trade would cover taxes and fees. It looks like they are calculating my payment with my trade and thr taxes and fees on top of it all. Intetesting. Also, do yoh know if Kia gives a 2 week grace period with conquest incentives? The salesman said he would look into it. 

I don't know the particulars of the incentive programs.

raymos24

I only ask because the other dealerships were offering me a total of 5500 in rebates because of a 500 competitive bonus for trading in the VW. Kia doesn't seem to have this advertised at all on their website but I have seen it on other dealer sites. I am going in tonight to finalize things but I will definitely ask about this bonus. Also, on the quote sheet I was given there is no mention of acquisition fee. I am guessing they are rolling it into the dealer fees?

Michaell

raymos24 said:

I only ask because the other dealerships were offering me a total of 5500 in rebates because of a 500 competitive bonus for trading in the VW. Kia doesn't seem to have this advertised at all on their website but I have seen it on other dealer sites. I am going in tonight to finalize things but I will definitely ask about this bonus. Also, on the quote sheet I was given there is no mention of acquisition fee. I am guessing they are rolling it into the dealer fees?

Usually, dealer and acquisition fees are broken out independent of one another ... if you don't see it, ask.

tonyg2016

raymos24 said:

I only ask because the other dealerships were offering me a total of 5500 in rebates because of a 500 competitive bonus for trading in the VW. Kia doesn't seem to have this advertised at all on their website but I have seen it on other dealer sites. I am going in tonight to finalize things but I will definitely ask about this bonus. Also, on the quote sheet I was given there is no mention of acquisition fee. I am guessing they are rolling it into the dealer fees?

The math isn't working out for me either. Excluding taxes, doc fees, dmv fees i get ~314/mo for the 36mo/10k lease. msrp 36665, cap1 = 27510, cap2 = 28105, res 48%, mf=.00049, finance charge 806, rent chg = 10506, total lease cost = 11312, divide by 36 for monthly 314.22. you need to get the breakdown of the taxes/fees to see what your Passat is really paying for...

raymos24

I agree. When I left the dealer we had agreed that the Passat would be paying for the taxes and the dealer fee. They did not mention the acquisition fee. What is the typical acquisition fee? These are my numbers:
MSRP: 36655
Discount: 4155
Rebate: 5000
Cap 1: 27500
Residual: 17594

Cap1-Residual= 9906/36 months=275 + (27500 + 17594)*.00049= 297.10 Monthly
The taxes on this monthly payment = (297.10 x.065)36= 695.21
Dealer Fees-489

Dealer Fees + Taxes = 1184
They offered 1500 for my trade which leaves me with 316. This would effectively cover the first payment. Can they choose when to apply my trade? If they apply it before calculating tax and finance charge, it makes a difference in the final payment as opposed to applying it after it is all said and done. So I should theoretically be under 300 a month if I cover whatever acquisition fee they want to impose. Does this look correct?

PS: This is before I ask for the competitive bonus that has been offered by the other dealerships. If that gets added, the rebates jumps to 5500.

Michaell

raymos24 said:

I agree. When I left the dealer we had agreed that the Passat would be paying for the taxes and the dealer fee. They did not mention the acquisition fee. What is the typical acquisition fee? These are my numbers:
MSRP: 36655
Discount: 4155
Rebate: 5000
Cap 1: 27500
Residual: 17594

Cap1-Residual= 9906/36 months=275 + (27500 + 17594)*.00049= 297.10 Monthly
The taxes on this monthly payment = (297.10 x.065)36= 695.21
Dealer Fees-489

Dealer Fees + Taxes = 1184
They offered 1500 for my trade which leaves me with 316. This would effectively cover the first payment. Can they choose when to apply my trade? If they apply it before calculating tax and finance charge, it makes a difference in the final payment as opposed to applying it after it is all said and done. So I should theoretically be under 300 a month if I cover whatever acquisition fee they want to impose. Does this look correct?

PS: This is before I ask for the competitive bonus that has been offered by the other dealerships. If that gets added, the rebates jumps to 5500.

The extra rebate and the acquisition fee effectively cancel each other out .. acquisition fee is $595.

I don't think the dealer can 'choose' when to apply the trade.

raymos24

Thanks for the info! Hopefully tonight will be the last negotiation. 

tonyg2016

1. in my calcs:
cap2 = cap1 + 595 acq fee
cap2 is the number to use, not cap1

2. doc fees are negotiable in MA; you should not pay such a high doc fee on a leftover 2015 model
3. didn't see DMV fees in your breakdown
4. lease cash of 5000 MAY be taxable, too

raymos24

Luckily, MA is not one of the states that tax cash back. Why would you use cap 2 if the trade cancels out Doc Fee, Taxes and acq fee? I also called KIA corporate and they confirmed that the 500 competitive Bonus is still active until end of April. It is 500 dollars for the 2015 Optima and I qualify because of the VW.

Michaell

tonyg2016 said:

1. in my calcs:
cap2 = cap1 + 595 acq fee
cap2 is the number to use, not cap1

2. doc fees are negotiable in MA; you should not pay such a high doc fee on a leftover 2015 model
3. didn't see DMV fees in your breakdown
4. lease cash of 5000 MAY be taxable, too

Lease cash is taxable.

raymos24

Cars Direct mentions rebates are not taxable in MA. Is lease cash different? If it is, where would I add it in the formula and would it be the complete 5500 (leash cash + competitive bonus)?

Rebates

If a motor vehicle dealer sells a motor vehicle to a customer who applies a manufacturer's rebate to reduce the sales price at the time of the sale, such rebate is treated as a cash discount and excluded from the sales price subject to tax.

However, if a motor vehicle dealer sells a motor vehicle to a customer who will receive a rebate after the sale, the sales tax is based on the full purchase price of the property. Upon receiving the rebate, the customer is not entitled to a refund of taxes originally paid on the rebate amount.


This is from the Massachusetts State website.

tonyg2016

"Dealer Fees + Taxes = 1184"
acq fee is 595 (goes to KMF) and is not part of the above
do you want a new calc with 5500 as lease cash?

raymos24

Sure. Doing all the numbers and with me covering the taxes, dealer fee, first month and acquisition fee I am getting these numbers:

MSRP: 36655
Discount: 4155
Rebate: 5000 (+500 Competitive Bonus *Confirmed by KIA Corporate*) = 5500
Cap 1: 27000
Residual: 17594
Dealer Fees: 489

Acquisition Fee: 595

Trade in Value: 1500

Money Factor: .00049

Taxes: 637.04

First Payment: 283.13

                                                           

Rent Charge= Cap1-Residual= 9406/36 months=261.28 

Finance Charge= (27000 + 17594)*.00049= 21.85

Monthly= 283.13

The monthly taxes on this monthly payment = (283.13 x.0625) = 17.70

Total Taxes on the Lease= 637.04


Dealer Fees (489) + Taxes (637.04) + Acquisition Fee (595) + First Payment (283.13) = 2004.17

2004.17 – Trade in Value (1500) = 504.17 Due at Signing

I am applying my 1500 trade + 504.17  before I calculate the actual monthly payment.

tonyg2016

i sent you a pm with my calcs

Michaell

raymos24 said:

Cars Direct mentions rebates are not taxable in MA. Is lease cash different? If it is, where would I add it in the formula and would it be the complete 5500 (leash cash + competitive bonus)?

Rebates

If a motor vehicle dealer sells a motor vehicle to a customer who applies a manufacturer's rebate to reduce the sales price at the time of the sale, such rebate is treated as a cash discount and excluded from the sales price subject to tax.

However, if a motor vehicle dealer sells a motor vehicle to a customer who will receive a rebate after the sale, the sales tax is based on the full purchase price of the property. Upon receiving the rebate, the customer is not entitled to a refund of taxes originally paid on the rebate amount.


This is from the Massachusetts State website.

Lease cash is not a rebate, per se. It's a factory to dealer incentive that the dealer can pass along to the customer. Not sure if that's considered a rebate in the eyes of the state or not.

raymos24

So I will have to wait for my answer later today. I dropped off my numbers and my request for the 500 competitive rebate. They agreed with the numbers but said they need to confirm that the rebate exists. Two other dealerships have offered me the rebate but the KIA website has to sign of it. However, the website has the 500 loyalty rebate, so I wonder if those work hand in hand somehow? The manager showed me their incentives sheet and it did not have either the loyalty or the competitive. Let's hope they are able to find it. Thanks everyone for all your help!

raymos24

I got an email today that they rejected the numbers I proposed. They claim their dealership uses a different formula. I am not too sure what "formula" that is. Oh well, what can you do.

tonyg2016

Most dealer guys just plug numbers into a computer an have no idea how it computes

Michaell

raymos24 said:

I got an email today that they rejected the numbers I proposed. They claim their dealership uses a different formula. I am not too sure what "formula" that is. Oh well, what can you do.

No counteroffer?

Guess they aren't interesting in striking a deal.

FWIW, there are no 'alternate' lease formulas, just the numbers used within the formula.

tonyg2016

It is surprising since the car is a loaded (36.6k) leftover 2015 model. The lease cash comes from KMF, not the dealer. I think they don't like dealing with people who can decipher the lease math - very common tactic and why leasing is not for the timid...

Michaell

tonyg2016 said:

It is surprising since the car is a loaded (36.6k) leftover 2015 model. The lease cash comes from KMF, not the dealer. I think they don't like dealing with people who can decipher the lease math - very common tactic and why leasing is not for the timid...

Exactly. The lease cash goes to the dealer, who can choose to pass it along, in whole or in part, to the customer.

Another example of transparency affecting the dealers ability to turn a profit.

raymos24

I just don't see what their counteroffer can be. If we agree on selling price and trade in, I can't imagine how numbers change. 

Michaell

raymos24 said:

I just don't see what their counteroffer can be. If we agree on selling price and trade in, I can't imagine how numbers change. 

Unless they want to mark up the MF to compensate for the low selling price.

Or, they want to add fees to the deal that aren't included in your offer.

raymos24

Any numbers on a 2015 Optima EX Hybrid for 36/10 and 24/10k in MA? Thanks. 

Michaell

raymos24 said:

Any numbers on a 2015 Optima EX Hybrid for 36/10 and 24/10k in MA? Thanks. 

24/10 - .00043 and 52%. $8500 (!) lease cash
36/10 - .00076 and 47%. $7000 (!) lease cash

raymos24

The 24 month lease looks really good. 

raymos24

So this is a first. I negotiated the price and agreed. As soon as I mentioned leasing the guy said Kia does not support 2015 Hybrid leasing anymore. As soon as I saud they did and that it is confirmed with Kia, he proceeded to say that his dealership does not lease them. He said this one had already been "put through" and could not be leased. I told him the car only had 40 miles and is eligible and got up and left. Can they deny offering a lease like that? 

Michaell

raymos24 said:

So this is a first. I negotiated the price and agreed. As soon as I mentioned leasing the guy said Kia does not support 2015 Hybrid leasing anymore. As soon as I saud they did and that it is confirmed with Kia, he proceeded to say that his dealership does not lease them. He said this one had already been "put through" and could not be leased. I told him the car only had 40 miles and is eligible and got up and left. Can they deny offering a lease like that? 

Can't speak to individual dealership decisions; I suppose they reserve the right to not lease a particular model and trim.

Remember, the dealership is independent of Kia in North America.

raymos24

You make a fair point. I just didn't like the fact that they tried to tell me Kia no longer leases this trim. Then they changed their story when I said Kia did lease them. I don't think the car has been "put through" is a fair excuse. 

Michaell

raymos24 said:

You make a fair point. I just didn't like the fact that they tried to tell me Kia no longer leases this trim. Then they changed their story when I said Kia did lease them. I don't think the car has been "put through" is a fair excuse. 

If the car has in fact been titled, it is not eligible for the new car lease rates.

If it is a demo and untitled, it should still be eligible.

raymos24

Yea it looks like they were willing to lower the price but only for purchasing. Is leasing a vehicle less profitable for them?

raymos24

Are these numbers on the Hybrid the same for Vermont and CT? 

raymos24

Michaell said:

Any numbers on a 2015 Optima EX Hybrid for 36/10 and 24/10k in MA? Thanks. 

24/10 - .00043 and 52%. $8500 (!) lease cash 36/10 - .00076 and 47%. $7000 (!) lease cash

Are these numbers the same in CT? 

michelea

Hi Michael, I see in CA the lease cash shows $4500.00. can you tell me MF and Res for a 2015 SX Turbo, 10/36 and 12/36, thank you!

kyfdx

raymos24 said:

Yea it looks like they were willing to lower the price but only for purchasing. Is leasing a vehicle less profitable for them?

There may be incentives for purchasing that aren't available on a lease.

kyfdx

raymos24 said:

Michaell said:

raymos24 said:

Any numbers on a 2015 Optima EX Hybrid for 36/10 and 24/10k in MA? Thanks. 

24/10 - .00043 and 52%. $8500 (!) lease cash
36/10 - .00076 and 47%. $7000 (!) lease cash

Are these numbers the same in CT? 

They may be, but you can only get the numbers for where you register the car, on a lease. So, it wouldn't matter.

kyfdx

michelea said:

Hi Michael, I see in CA the lease cash shows $4500.00. can you tell me MF and Res for a 2015 SX Turbo, 10/36 and 12/36, thank you!

.00072 MF and 49%/48% residual. $4500 lease cash.

raymos24

If I lease the car from a dealership in CT but register it in MA are the rebates taxed? In CT rebates are taxed while in MA they are not. 

Michaell

raymos24 said:

If I lease the car from a dealership in CT but register it in MA are the rebates taxed? In CT rebates are taxed while in MA they are not. 

Probably a combination ... you'll pay the CT tax but then, since you are registering it in MA, you'll have to submit paperwork with CT Department of Revenue to get the tax refunded to you.