Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

carnaught

@breld, congrats. Any car in the fleet bite the dust, or is this just an addition?

breld

So as far as the shopping experience, this was funny and frustrating at the same time (@michaell joined us for this part of our shopping trip)...

There are two MINI dealers in the greater Denver area, so we went to the one significantly closer to us this morning hoping to make a deal. MINI has a $2,000 incentive clearly marketed on their website and the advertised lease deal states it assumes a $1,030 dealer contribution (not that they have to).

This dealership was providing the $2,000 incentive and nothing more. So to clarify, I stated, “so the dealership is not providing any discount?” The salesperson was confused, so he had me talk to the sales manager who agreed the $2,000 was coming from MINI and they weren’t discounting the Hardtops on top of that at all. I then asked about the stated lease deal on MINI’s website that includes a $1,030 discount in addition to the $2,000. He said if he did that they’d be losing money.

Tiring of arguing the point, I politely stated that we wanted to do a deal there (where we have purchased several vehicles), but if that really was the case we would shop at the other MINI dealership.

So...we drove 60 miles north where the transaction couldn’t have been easier. Right out of the gate their offer was a little better than the advertised MINI deal, and with a little prodding they came back with some additional discount close enough to our target so we accepted. Easy peasy.

And no joke, the sales manager e-mailed me while we were signing the lease papers saying that he took another look at what was on MINI’s website and said they could do that deal.

breld

carnaught said:

@breld, congrats. Any car in the fleet bite the dust, or is this just an addition?

Thanks! Just an addition. The plan is for next year when the Volvo lease is up we’ll consolidate the larger utility cars into one.

stickguy

so what are the details? S I assume, manual or automatic?

roadburner

Cincinnati Mini had a used 2019 Mini JCW International Orange Edition; I was a bit tempted, but I still think a RWD car that's actually fast is about the only thing that I'll prefer to the 2er long term. Still, it was a sharp looking JCW:

stickguy

not sure if I like the checker stripe, but I love the color.

breld

It’s an S, signature trim, automatic.

She was open to both auto and manual this go around, and it seemed like every time we went to look at a manual model it’d be gone. That happened this morning where we were going to check out a 2016 manual base model - pictures were just posted last night and by the time we got to the dealership it had been sold.

roadburner

breld said:

So as far as the shopping experience, this was funny and frustrating at the same time (@michaell joined us for this part of our shopping trip)...

There are two MINI dealers in the greater Denver area, so we went to the one significantly closer to us this morning hoping to make a deal. MINI has a $2,000 incentive clearly marketed on their website and the advertised lease deal states it assumes a $1,030 dealer contribution (not that they have to).

This dealership was providing the $2,000 incentive and nothing more. So to clarify, I stated, “so the dealership is not providing any discount?” The salesperson was confused, so he had me talk to the sales manager who agreed the $2,000 was coming from MINI and they weren’t discounting the Hardtops on top of that at all. I then asked about the stated lease deal on MINI’s website that includes a $1,030 discount in addition to the $2,000. He said if he did that they’d be losing money.

Tiring of arguing the point, I politely stated that we wanted to do a deal there (where we have purchased several vehicles), but if that really was the case we would shop at the other MINI dealership.

So...we drove 60 miles north where the transaction couldn’t have been easier. Right out of the gate their offer was a little better than the advertised MINI deal, and with a little prodding they came back with some additional off close enough to our target so we accepted. Easy peasy.

And no joke, the sales manager e-mailed me while we were signing the lease papers saying that he took another look at what was on MINI’s website and said they could do that deal.

Those kind of games annoy me to no end. In effect the guy was saying, "We did our best to screw you over, but now we'll make a borderline fair deal because we need a sale."

breld

roadburner said:

breld said:

So as far as the shopping experience, this was funny and frustrating at the same time (@michaell joined us for this part of our shopping trip)...

There are two MINI dealers in the greater Denver area, so we went to the one significantly closer to us this morning hoping to make a deal. MINI has a $2,000 incentive clearly marketed on their website and the advertised lease deal states it assumes a $1,030 dealer contribution (not that they have to).

This dealership was providing the $2,000 incentive and nothing more. So to clarify, I stated, “so the dealership is not providing any discount?” The salesperson was confused, so he had me talk to the sales manager who agreed the $2,000 was coming from MINI and they weren’t discounting the Hardtops on top of that at all. I then asked about the stated lease deal on MINI’s website that includes a $1,030 discount in addition to the $2,000. He said if he did that they’d be losing money.

Tiring of arguing the point, I politely stated that we wanted to do a deal there (where we have purchased several vehicles), but if that really was the case we would shop at the other MINI dealership.

So...we drove 60 miles north where the transaction couldn’t have been easier. Right out of the gate their offer was a little better than the advertised MINI deal, and with a little prodding they came back with some additional off close enough to our target so we accepted. Easy peasy.

And no joke, the sales manager e-mailed me while we were signing the lease papers saying that he took another look at what was on MINI’s website and said they could do that deal.

Those kind of games annoy me to no end. In effect the guy was saying, "We did our best to screw you over, but now we'll make a borderline fair deal because we need a sale."

Yeah, I would have been okay if he had told me, “you know, with our inventory being so low and demand remaining steady, we’ve been able to sell these without additional discounts, so that’s what we’re doing.” Instead of claiming they’d be losing money if they honored the advertised lease deal on MINI’s website. Just stupid.

roadburner

About a month ago I mentioned how a local Hyundai dealer told me a $5,000 ADM on a Veloster N was justified because, "With the current market, the demand is high and the supply is low." Well, lo and behold two weeks later I get a followup- "I spoke with the boss today, and we will be able to be much more competative on the price of our Veloster N."
Idiot.

Michaell

I'll add my .02 to the morning festivities. The first dealer (where we've bought both of the daughter's MINIs) prides itself on "One Price, One Person, One Hour". They are generally a fixed price dealer (BMW, Honda and MINI in one location, and Subaru, Hyundai and Mazda in another), and proudly announces the fact that they don't charge a dealer fee (can run $500-$700 here in CO).

Anyway, @breld and wife had also been eyeing some service loaners. For BMW, it's pretty standard to get 15-18% off MSRP for loaners, then apply any incentives. Figured it's the same for MINI - in fact, @breld told me that they had been offered 17% off on a loaner at the other dealer. The local dealer was pretty firm at only a 10% discount from sticker, but "we don't charge a doc fee!".

Let's do some simple 4th grade math.

$30,000 MSRP (example)

10% discount = $27,000
17% discount = $24,900 + $500 doc fee = $25,400

$1600 difference, which we pointed out to the sales rep. At that moment, it may have dawned on him that the fixed price / no doc fee business model may not be all that he thought it was cracked up to be.

@breld, his wife and I discussed this over lunch - I know that inventory is tight, which favors dealers, but to assume that the other dealer is "too far away" (almost 70 miles; I just checked) for the smart shoppers is short sighted.

If we ever decide to get another MINI, I know where I'll be shopping.

breld

I’m pretty fascinated with the COVID effect on the car market right now. With the production slowdowns, supply is truly dwindling, but the dealerships seem pretty busy still based on my experience. So I think some dealership are becoming a bit arrogant about it.

The whole thing has got to go the other way in short order.

I do feel like I was able to take advantage of the market on the Supra though - while trucks and SUVs continue to be desired, I don’t think the two seater sports car has fared too well.

pensfan83

breld said:

roadburner said:

breld said:

So as far as the shopping experience, this was funny and frustrating at the same time (@michaell joined us for this part of our shopping trip)...

There are two MINI dealers in the greater Denver area, so we went to the one significantly closer to us this morning hoping to make a deal. MINI has a $2,000 incentive clearly marketed on their website and the advertised lease deal states it assumes a $1,030 dealer contribution (not that they have to).

This dealership was providing the $2,000 incentive and nothing more. So to clarify, I stated, “so the dealership is not providing any discount?” The salesperson was confused, so he had me talk to the sales manager who agreed the $2,000 was coming from MINI and they weren’t discounting the Hardtops on top of that at all. I then asked about the stated lease deal on MINI’s website that includes a $1,030 discount in addition to the $2,000. He said if he did that they’d be losing money.

Tiring of arguing the point, I politely stated that we wanted to do a deal there (where we have purchased several vehicles), but if that really was the case we would shop at the other MINI dealership.

So...we drove 60 miles north where the transaction couldn’t have been easier. Right out of the gate their offer was a little better than the advertised MINI deal, and with a little prodding they came back with some additional off close enough to our target so we accepted. Easy peasy.

And no joke, the sales manager e-mailed me while we were signing the lease papers saying that he took another look at what was on MINI’s website and said they could do that deal.

Those kind of games annoy me to no end. In effect the guy was saying, "We did our best to screw you over, but now we'll make a borderline fair deal because we need a sale."

Yeah, I would have been okay if he had told me, “you know, with our inventory being so low and demand remaining steady, we’ve been able to sell these without additional discounts, so that’s what we’re doing.” Instead of claiming they’d be losing money if they honored the advertised lease deal on MINI’s website. Just stupid.

Sounds like my recent experience with one of the area Acura dealers. First offer included lease cash and loyalty. When I called them out on the fact they weren't discounting it at all they were annoyed and came down a bit but not much. I was so glad my regular dealer got one last 2020 in because they made it easy to get a deal done.

And congrats to Mrs Breld, nice choice!

pensfan83

breld said:

I’m pretty fascinated with the COVID effect on the car market right now. With the production slowdowns, supply is truly dwindling, but the dealerships seem pretty busy still based on my experience. So I think some dealership are becoming a bit arrogant about it.

The whole thing has got to go the other way in short order.

I do feel like I was able to take advantage of the market on the Supra though - while trucks and SUVs continue to be desired, I don’t think the two seater sports car has fared too well.

Agreed. This was sent to me the Monday after I signed

28firefighter

Congrats, @breld!

And lol, @pensfan83.

breld

The whole “losing money on this deal” is tired. It’s the kind of thing that was said to our parents to make them feel good about a deal at a time when there was zero transparency in car deals.

qbrozen

stickguy said:

Honda ad is gone. Did you buy it?

guess he took it down after my email

qbrozen

roadburner said:

qbrozen said:

I’m trying to learn what I can about bikes now, but obviously not as much info out there as for cars.

It seems I gravitate toward more street-oriented machines. I would think some of these could handle light trail riding, but my brother disagrees. He used to race dirt bikes, so, while he is knowledgable, I don’t know how reliable his opinion is because I don’t think he can comprehend what light trail riding means.

Anyway, two that really caught my eye so far are a 1974 CZ 175 and a 1968 Honda Dream 300cc. The Honda is definitely a porker but with way more power. The CZ is a rugged commie bike from Czech that could probably survive a drop from a building.

https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/mcy/d/philadelphia-68-honda-dream/7174317473.html

https://jxn.craigslist.org/mcy/d/addison-1974-cz-175cc-motorcycle/7160375474.html

Money-wise, the Honda is the better deal (if as good as it looks) and closer to me. I just reached out about that one. The CZ, I have already had an exchange with the owner, who used to own one of their dealerships in the 70s.

Most of the BMW G/S bikes can do it all. Or maybe a Triumph Street Scrambler 900? I love them:

looks great, but don't believe that would be in my self-imposed limit of $2500 all in.

28firefighter

I believe dealers lose money on deals - some dealers take the hit more than others. But I don’t believe in whining about it - if you’re doing it, then you’re doing it.

akangl

ab348 said:

akangl said:

I saw the redline 2 in person today and I'm glad I did......PASS! However the red velvet was instant LOVE! I've found the JGC I want, just waiting on insurance to let me know what they are doing with my Cherokee.

Was the Redline just too eye-poppingly bright?

I'm all about eye-poppingly bright and on the Durango it was beautiful, it just didn't work on the Jeep, I can't explain it. The red velvet looked amazing on the Jeep, but the redline 2 is just too red on it.

akangl

I never did post a picture of our last punch. 2018 Ram 2500 Cummins diesel 4x4 cc longbed

stickguy

if they still make the deal, there must be some positive in it or they wouldn't be doing it. so maybe they are "losing" money on paper (invoice vs. sales price) but they must be making it up someplace else (finance spif, volume bonus, trade in). If not, they aren't very good business people and not likely to be in business long!

but, also not my problem. I have certainly made offers that are not workable (for whatever my reasons were) and been told No and politely (usually, not always!) shown the door. Their call. But if they take the deal and sell me the car, none of my business if they have to rummage in the service area couch cushions for enough money to pay the electric bill.

stickguy

that is a large beast of a truck. Don't think I would want to be parking that in the cramped parking lots around here though!

akangl

stickguy said:

that is a large beast of a truck. Don't think I would want to be parking that in the cramped parking lots around here though!

Its not too bad to drive, it has rear parking sensors and a back up camera. Right now I can't get in it very easily lol. It drives really nice and pulls our RV effortlessly. Hubby is very possessive of it, its HIS truck!

[Deleted User]

Congrats as well @breld, great color, enjoy it! Gotta wonder if Ralph is rolling over in his grave these days. We certainly weren’t impressed with our last few visits

omarman

If the math points to a more competitive offer from a dealer 70 miles away then it doesn't really matter how the local dealer worded his higher price pitch. That MINI S looks great in 2020 BRG and the morning festivities sounds like a victory lap to me! That is as long as the wife is happy.

oldfarmer50

breld said:

Punch for the wife.

And some couples just play golf.

I was watching an episode of Motor Week this morning and the were reviewing a MB 63 s AMG GT (hope I got that right). It had the expected super performance characteristics for a $162k vehicle but the thing I noticed was the paint.

Mercedes decided to give it a matte paint job which made it look like something done in a friend’s garage with a roller. The question is why? Are young faddish hipsters the market demographic?

I can’t imagine that will age well.

oldfarmer50

“ And no joke, the sales manager e-mailed me while we were signing the lease papers saying that he took another look at what was on MINI’s website and said they could do that deal.”

You snooze, you lose. Did that sales manager not realize who he was dealing with? It’s certainly true that the best negotiation tool is the door.

oldfarmer50

akangl said:

I never did post a picture of our last punch. 2018 Ram 2500 Cummins diesel 4x4 cc longbed

Boy, that is a lota truck!

ab348

oldfarmer50 said:

Mercedes decided to give it a matte paint job which made it look like something done in a friend’s garage with a roller. The question is why? Are young faddish hipsters the market demographic?

I can’t imagine that will age well.

It's trendy right now and not just on vehicles. If you follow MLB many teams have matte finish batting helmets now. I don't mind them. On cars though it would take a lot of reprogramming not to be able to use wax to shine it up. I don't know what you do with those matte finishes other than wash them.

rayainsw

'Punch for the wife. ' - breld
Congrats!
I like that color.
Enjoy it!
- Ray
Daughter had one - before her Subaru...

roadburner

We definitely lost money on my first deal- not my fault, however. The previous NCM had punched the car as a loaner and for some reason that salient fact was not in the car’s file. As a result we applied incentives that only applied to new cars. We didn’t find out about the loaner status until a day later. Even though it was punched as a loaner it was never actually used as one- it had around 30 miles on it.

kyfdx

28firefighter said:

I believe dealers lose money on deals - some dealers take the hit more than others. But I don’t believe in whining about it - if you’re doing it, then you’re doing it.

They do it, because for the vast majority of buyers, it makes them feel good. Then, they can brag about it to their friends. (Go to Joe Schmoe Chevy.. they sell below cost!).

roadburner

One final comment on “losing money on the deal”- dealers need to understand once and for all that there is a significant number of customers who come to the table prepared with the same numbers that the dealers have.
Conversely, I would give a customer a lease number and sometimes the customer would come back with an ad from another dealer showing a lower number. I would show the customer the reason for the difference- the lower payment was almost always due to a higher down payment or a lower capitalized cost because that vehicle that was not as heavily optioned as our car.
To put it in a rather blunt fashion, dealers used to be able to pee on a customer’s leg and tell him that it was raining.
No longer.

Sandman6472

Love that Mini Breld, congrats. Really need to test drive one soon as I do like them. The wife said it's too small when I showed her one a few weeks ago but still like the size. We've got a few at Enterprise and even had to move one last week but another driver who's a bit nasty got in it even though I had told my lead I'd really like to drive it. He said sure but the other driver refused to get out & give me the keys, just said "too bad" and closed the door on me! I was a bit shocked by it all but hey, some folks are jerks!
On something like that, a lease might not be a bad idea really. Since my yearly mileage has really decreased by about 2/3 or more, could easily do a 10K/year lease. But a lease could work for me, just would need to change my mind set a bit as I'd have to remember I don't own it. If I do get serious and go in that direction, would appreciate any help you & Michael could give me as we've never leased before. Think I'd rather wait for a 2021 model at this point though. Just wish my wife could be a bit more like yours when it comes to cars and such. She knows it's my one real passion in life, well #2 after our kids. Think she'd be happier to see me in a Countryman though as it's a bit longer. But hell, she'd never drive it, she drove the Tucson once after I made her try it. She's never driven the Golf as I recall since her A3 is so similar, feels it ain't necessary.

nyccarguy

akangl said:

I never did post a picture of our last punch. 2018 Ram 2500 Cummins diesel 4x4 cc longbed

Nice truck! Now that’s a color I dig;). Makes my Tacoma look like @breld ’s new Mini.

venture

oldfarmer50 said:

breld said:

Punch for the wife.

And some couples just play golf.

I was watching an episode of Motor Week this morning and the were reviewing a MB 63 s AMG GT (hope I got that right). It had the expected super performance characteristics for a $162k vehicle but the thing I noticed was the paint.

Mercedes decided to give it a matte paint job which made it look like something done in a friend’s garage with a roller. The question is why? Are young faddish hipsters the market demographic?

I can’t imagine that will age well.

There's a Tesla a street above mine that has paint like that.

roadburner

BMW refers to those matte finishes as “Frozen.” They are a royal pain to maintain.

pensfan83

roadburner said:

One final comment on “losing money on the deal”- dealers need to understand once and for all that there is a significant number of customers who come to the table prepared with the same numbers that the dealers have.

So much this.

carnaught

I actually hate that matte or "frozen" paint. When it's dirty, it's really dirty, and when it's clean it's...yawn...nothing special. What does one do when it's scratched or dented - all for the privilege of paying a premium to have it.

corvette

New rearview mirror for the G37 arrived today and I got it installed. I think it took longer to reprogram the Homelink than it did to swap out the mirror.

roadburner

carnaught said:

I actually hate that matte or "frozen" paint. When it's dirty, it's really dirty, and when it's clean it's...yawn...nothing special. What does one do when it's scratched or dented - all for the privilege of paying a premium to have it.

I never liked it to begin with- couple that with the fastidious care it requires and I wouldn’t own one on a bet.

corvette

carnaught said:

I actually hate that matte or "frozen" paint. When it's dirty, it's really dirty, and when it's clean it's...yawn...nothing special. What does one do when it's scratched or dented - all for the privilege of paying a premium to have it.

Given the very poor quality body repairs I've seen done, especially for anything more than a bumper replacement (and sometimes they manage to mess that up), I'd say the majority of body shops are incapable of making a matte finish match the rest of the car and otherwise look right.

tjc78

@breld
Congrats!!

akangl

nyccarguy said:

akangl said:

I never did post a picture of our last punch. 2018 Ram 2500 Cummins diesel 4x4 cc longbed

Nice truck! Now that’s a color I dig;). Makes my Tacoma look like @breld ’s new Mini.

She's a beauty. Best part is we paid under Nada clean trade in on one of the most desirable and hard to find used trucks in Alaska! Helps to have friends in the business. Hubby is loving his truck.

corvette

It's nice! I'm not sure I could deal with parking the crew cab + 8' bed. The couple feet of extra length on my Tundra compared to the Tahoe it replaced already makes it feel way less maneuverable. The Tahoe was svelte by comparison! Yes, it was really wide, but it could get into a parking space easier due to its shorter wheelbase and length.

explorerx4

I might have just sold my truck.
When it's a done deal, I'll post the info.

stickguy

action is picking up around here!

oldfarmer50

explorerx4 said:

I might have just sold my truck.
When it's a done deal, I'll post the info.

Did it displease you? Seems awful new to get rid of.

explorerx4

@oldfarer50,
Its a very good offer. We'll see if it actually happens.