Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

uplanderguy

Well, the '64's were a good amount of new sheetmetal, and when they stamped the parts I don't think anybody was expecting that the U.S. operations would shut down in four months. When Newman and Altman bought the rights to the Avanti in 1964, they also bought rights to build the trucks (never happened) and at some point (I think 1972, when Studebaker's parts division finally closed), they bought the factory stock of parts. Supposedly that helped them generate money on top of selling the couple hundred Avantis they were building annually. I'm glad it all happened, obviously.

When the Canadian operation closed in '66, letters were sent to Studebaker owners saying they'd have no problem getting parts for a good number of years. They pointed out that they were still providing Packard parts ten years after the final Detroit Packards were built.

I know you know that Studebaker was the American distributor for M-B from '57-65. I might've shared it some time back, but I've seen a pic of '63 M-B's in a warehouse in South Bend. I think (accent on 'think') I heard that all M-B's for domestic sale in those years all came to South Bend first.

When Mr. Newman, son of the original Newman who bought the parts, wanted to retire maybe fifteen years back, he advertised in the club magazine that his Studebaker parts business was a $900,000 business annually then.

andre1969

I think GM might have been caught with their proverbial pants down for 1957, and for '58 moved fast to make the Cadillacs bigger. IIRC, a '57 Imperial was about 225" long, while a Lincoln stretched out to 227". Meanwhile, your volume Cadillacs (Series 62 and DeVille) were at 216" for the sedans and 221" for the coupes and convertibles.

In those days, there was a lot of prestige associated with length. And 1957 was Imperials best year ever. It wasn't such a hot year for Lincoln. However, I believe by this time, Lincoln was getting pushed upward in price and prestige, to allow for larger, more expensive Mercurys.

Anyway, for 1958, volume Cadillacs came in three sizes. The coupes were around 222" long, bulked up marginally by the heavy-handed facelift. The Series 62 sedan was around 217" long. However, the Sedan Deville, as well as a new "extended deck" Series 62 sedan, were streatched to around 225".

It probably wasn't the best year to do this, as 1958 was a recession year and people were starting to focus on smaller, more fuel-efficient cars. However, Cadillac sales only dropped marginally, from around 145K to ~122K. Meanwhile, Lincoln, on an all-new unitized body, plunged from ~41k to ~17K. Imperial, tanked as well, dropping from ~37K to ~16K.

uplanderguy

Of course I know styling is subjective, but those '58-60 Lincolns burn my retinas, LOL.

I will say I saw a "Town Car" (Fleetwood-style model) at Hershey one year and found it sort-of interesting.

ab348

Maybe it was the same people at Stude who decided to overproduce all those parts in the first place.

Mr_Shiftright

One benefit is that many Studebaker parts fit cars that span a decade or more. Not many automakers were building cars with flathead engines and kingpins in 1959. So you can parts pick for your '59 Lark going back to the early 50s.

fintail

That makes sense, production ended somewhat quickly, and a lot of stock would have been left over. Someone had loyalty to keep it for the future owners, and not destroy it, as I could see someone doing today.

My fintail has kingpins. I had them replaced years ago, scored a complete kit on ebay for $60,

uplanderguy

I'm not complaining about being able to buy NOS sheetmetal in 1993 for my car.

uplanderguy

I'm not really talking about mechanical parts, Shifty--even much sheetmetal for the later cars, and trim is out there, both NOS and reproduction. I received a complete NOS interior set for Christmas one year. My understanding is that since Chrysler bought AMC, the fate of AMC parts was not as positive.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, same thing with Studebaker. I bet a '53 trunklid fits all kinds of newer Studes. They used a lot of leftovers.

Depends on what you want to accomplish. Some owners want only NOS for precise restorations, others are content with aftermarket stuff because of the price break.

uplanderguy

You stole those kingpins, fintail. The Western Lake Erie SDC chapter was refurbishing and selling king pins, taking your old ones as cores. I'm pretty sure I paid more than that many, many years back.

Nobody complains about this (including me), but even 1962 Corvettes had kingpins. Same part number as '49 Chevys I've been told.

uplanderguy

Well, there are two '53 trunklids--coupes and hardtops, and sedans. The coupes and hardtops one will probably fit later Hawks--although were not used by the factory after the '55-- but I can't say I've seen that in any number over the 30 years I've been in the hobby. The sedan ones won't fit anything after '55 as the rear quarters changed dramatically.

In 1993, I bought NOS rear quarters, doors, trunklid, front and rear bumper valence panels, and grille and headlight surround for my car's restoration. I didn't have more than $700 in all that. I also bought NOS bumpers, guards, door handles, grille insert and surround, bright headlight frames, etc. All really cheap. More now, but most are still available. I have heard that two-door rear quarters for the '62-66 are gone or down to almost nothing. There were hundreds of '64-66 front fenders at that time and I have to believe there still are. As an owner, that was all good.

andre1969

If anybody needs any bullet-nose Stude parts, I found this old carcass while hiking in the woods this past Saturday...

stickguy

Too bad it's missing the bullet.

uplanderguy

Whoa, that baby's been sitting there awhile, LOL!

While Stude's greatest-ever profit was in 1959, the highest sales volume was the 1950 models. My wife likes them, but I can't say I do (and that's being gracious). I'd say that those and Golden Hawks are the most-recognized Studebakers by non-car people.

andre1969

I can appreciate those '47-52 Studes for being ahead of their time, although I'm not really a fan of the styling. As for this one that got dumped, it had no body damage and the engine was yanked out, so I imagine it was still a good, serviceable car that nobody really wanted? Incidentally, the cars in the background are a '56 Chevy 2-door sedan to the left, a '56 Mercury to the right (didn't go down the hill so I couldn't tell what body style), and another '56 Mercury hardtop coupe in the background, wedged between some poplar trees. Down at the very bottom of the hill was something really far gone, but it was somewhat small and the grille had strong horizontal theming, so I'm guessing a pre-1949 Chevy? And down in another gulley, I there was a '57 Plymouth 2-door sedan. Low-end model, like a Savoy or Plaza I'm guessing. It had the carcass of something else thrown down on it that looked fairly small and 40's-looking. I took more pics, which I'll post later, and I'm curious to go back some time and get some more pics.

Interestingly, both Mercurys, the Chevy, and the Stude all had their engines pulled out. I couldn't tell if the Plymouth had, because of its angle. And none of them really seemed to have much body damage, other than what they probably sustained being pushed down in the gulley, and several decades of kids and such jumping on them. Oh, and the Mercury in between the Poplars was turning extremely wasp-waisted...I always thought trees would grow up around a car, yet these were slowly crushing it as they grew. Kinda sad that these still-serviceable cars were simply retired and discarded. Although I guess none of them were ever destined to be high-dollar cars. Well, maybe the '56 Merc hardtop coupe, might've had some value.

Were those bullet-nosed Studebakers known for being solid cars? One thing I noticed about these cars was that the Stude definitely seemed the most solid and had the least rust on it. The two Mercs and the Chevy were falling in on themselves, in contrast. The Plymouth, though, looked remarkably solid as well. Not worth salvaging, obviously, but not deteriorating as rapidly as the two Mercs and the Chevy.

stickguy

I'm surprised that it was easier to drag into the woods, instead of sending to a junk yard and at least get scrap value. Unless 40 years ago, that was just someone's back yard!

uplanderguy

I do think the '47-52 Studes were much more solid, and rust-resistant, than those that came afterwards. Like I said, I'm not a fan of the styling, but I do think the '47, with minor facelifts, still looked fairly in-the-game in the '52 model year. Korean war chrome was an issue, like with everybody.

My brother-in-law has a yellow '49 Champion convertible. He's 15 years older than me and when he married my sister, I brought this out in him. His Dad had had one very similar to the one he subsequently bought himself. He remembers going with his Dad down to my friend the local Stude dealer's place to buy parts. He wouldn't buy a Lark and I wouldn't buy a '47-52, largely a function of our ages I think.

andre1969

stickguy said:

I'm surprised that it was easier to drag into the woods, instead of sending to a junk yard and at least get scrap value. Unless 40 years ago, that was just someone's back yard!

Yeah, I'm really curious as to the story of these cars. The area is called Bacon Ridge Natural area; here's the website: http://www.srlt.org/our-watersheds/bacon-ridge-natural-area. I'd say the cars are into the woods at least a half-mile from any current roads, other than Interstate 97, which didn't open until around 1989 or so. Some of the forest had a second-growth look to it, and there was another spot where it looked like there had been a cut for something underground, like a water main or something. But, I'd imagine these cars had been here since the 70's or even 60's. The terrain is very hilly, with lots of little gullies and valleys and such...going through the trails, it's almost like being in the mountains, minus a majestic view at the end of the trail. So it's not land that was every very good for building homes on, or farming.

There are actually a lot of cars dumped around here. Not too far from me is the remains of an old farm, all grown over now, that has a '67 Ford Galaxie hardtop coupe, a '73-74 Nova, early 70's Camaro, and a '71 or so Plymouth Satellite. Oh, and there's also an early 80's Cavalier coupe with the roof cut on one side and bent over, that the local fire department had used for practice. I also know where there's a '55-56 Crown Victoria coupe, that was tossed down the embankment of an old railroad right of way. Like you said, you'd think that these cars would have at least had some scrap value. But instead, people chose to simply dump them.

uplanderguy

Studebaker prototype "graveyard" out at the old Proving Ground; photos in the link below. I've driven around the three-mile oval at the Proving Ground twice and rode with someone else once, both in Studebakers. Great fun. It's now owned by Navistar. Everyone always knew about the "graveyard" but those who had seen the hulks were supposedly sworn to secrecy....until Google maps came out, and you could see that the "graveyard" was actually in the middle of the track!

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/11/the-ghosts-of-the-studebaker-proving-grounds/

sda

A friend just sent me this picture. They had come to visit my parents and attend the 1982 World's Fair in Knoxville, TN. If you look to the far left you can spot their VW camper and dad's '79 Eldorado in the driveway. What caught my eye is how Pontiac was successful in giving the Sunbird (GM H-body) a very Pontiac style front end.

ab348

Given how successful Pontiac was in the Canadian market in those years. there were Sunbirds everywhere up here. That face was very familiar.

fintail

What was it with Canadaland and Pontiacs? Even back when I was younger, I always noticed that there seemed to be more Pontiacs on the road in Vancouver than Seattle. The weird facelift Sunfire was a legit hit there, too.

Any pics of the Eldo?

gsemike

Long Island Craigs

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5714055958.html whoa!

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5748210139.html Man, these go for a lot

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5748207317.html Interesting old vert. Maybe too plain jane for my taste. For that money, detail the engine

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5712416050.html Green machine. 23k claimed miles

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5748159708.html Old Bronco with modern engine. Either way, I don't get these things

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5747771903.html Cobra replaica

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5747370075.html Obviously a lot of work went into this. Not digging the trick with the taillights

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5716843295.html Caprice. Could be a decent end of summer deal

ab348

The only one that grabs me a bit is the last one, the Caprice. Lose the headers, put an interior in it, and you have a pretty nice car for a decent price.

Mr_Shiftright

Seems a bit pricey for a blasted interior. Those aren't cheap to make right, if the door panels are shot especially

ab348

Beats a 1st-gen Bronco pushing $40K though.

andre1969

Pontiac was more of an equivalent to Chevrolet in Canada for the most part, rather than a step up from it as it was in the United States. And in some years, they expanded the lineup to include both Canadian and US models, so their whole lineup might have been even broader than Chevy. But then, Chevy's lineup was a bit bigger in Canada as well, I believe. For instance, while the Chevy Bel Air went away in the United States after 1975, I think it hung on in Canada until 1981.

I'd be curious as to what a Canadian '77-81 Bel Air would be like? Pontiac had a base model called the Laurentian, which looks like it used Impala door panels with the fake woodgrain taken off, and seats roughly the quality of a taxi or police car. Here's a '78 below...


I guess the Canadian Bel Air was about the same inside? I imagine though, that the Laurentian at least used the Catalina/Bonneville dashboard?

I think there were some years in there where Pontiac actually outsold Chevy in Canada.

ab348

andre1969 said:

I guess the Canadian Bel Air was about the same inside? I imagine though, that the Laurentian at least used the Catalina/Bonneville dashboard?

I think there were some years in there where Pontiac actually outsold Chevy in Canada.

I think you've got it about right. Both the BelAir and Laurentian back in the late '70s were pretty plain-jane vehicles, used for police/taxi service mostly.

While that generation Laurentian used the Pontiac dash (a friend had one, a '78 I think, as a company car in the early 80s) ironically when Pontiac brought back its fullsize models after discontinuing them in the early '80s, they were initially a Chevrolet body and used the Chevy dash.

andre1969

I'd always wondered about big Canadian Pontiacs in those "missing" years of the early 80's. Here in the US, we had the Catalina/Bonneville through 1981. By that time, I think they sold about 10,000 Catalinas and maybe 90,000 Bonnevilles, and Pontiac made the decision to dump them in the US. For 1982, they gave the LeMans a more formal front-end, and called it Bonneville. Then, when we got a full-sized Pontiac again, for mid-1983, it was the Parisienne, but by then it was a Chevy with the front-end modified to look like a Pontiac. Out back, they actually used a modification of the Impala's taillights, rather than the Caprice. It carried over for 1984, and then for 1985-86 they restyled the rear to make it look more like the '80-81 Bonneville.

In Canada, I guess they figured a big Pontiac was still viable, but with the US version getting canned, it probably made sense to just base it off the Chevy. And that's what they did for 1982. Interestingly, there was a Parisienne coupe for 1982, something we never got here in the States...when it came back, all we got was a sedan and wagon.

Here's a 1982 Parisienne brochure I found online.

Interestingly, Pontiac of Canada kept the LeMans going a bit longer, as well. Here's an '83 Grand LeMans brochure. Identical to the 1982-86 Bonneville G in the United States, but kinda cool that Canada kept the LeMans name going a bit longer.

fintail

Got a new phone, first pic of the car with the excellent camera:



I don't use the DSLR much anymore, phones have really advanced.

Car is running fine, started right up and moved along with no issues. Got to test the horn a few times, which is always fun, as it is pretty loud. No brake issues, but I didn't drive on the highway, which seems to be when they come up. Maybe next weekend. Got a compliment from a pedestrian and had a guy in a later model SL honk and wave at me.

berri

Is that a Samsung? New ones have a really great lens on them.

fintail

Yep, Samsung. Great image quality. Not the same as a DSLR in all scenarios, but for 99% of recreational snapshots, it works nicely.

berri

Have you been Android, or did you switch from an iPhone? Just asking because I'm about to go shopping.

ab348

The phone may be new, but the car still looks old.

fintail

I've always had an Android, never owned an iPhone.

berri said:

Have you been Android, or did you switch from an iPhone? Just asking because I'm about to go shopping.

fintail

In a good way, of course

ab348 said:

The phone may be new, but the car still looks old.

ab348

Had an interesting experience with the Cutlass yesterday. I discovered that one of my high-beams was burned out. It was largely academic, since I don't drive it on deserted roads at night, but of course you want it to work. I had some replacement sealed beams here for some reason, must have picked them up years ago. On these cars you access the headlamps by removing the bezel or "headlight door" in GM terms, held on with 2 screws, and then you have access to the retaining ring that holds the headlamp to the headlight bucket, which is held on with 3 screws.

The bezel came off easily and so did the first retaining screw. But screw #2 was frozen, probably because this sealed beam was apparently original to the car, a T3 type. Screw #3 was almost inaccessible because of a trim piece that obstructed it - just bad design. After an hour I gave it up because I didn't want to chowder up the screw head or lose one of these screws inside some inaccessible area. Thankfully my friend with the newly restored 4-4-2 came to my rescue with his hammer technique. He set the screwdriver into the screw head and hit the handle firmly a few times with a hammer. That freed it up and he was also able to get at the #3 screw as well and not lose it thanks to a magnetic screwdriver which mine was not. All fixed now. Old cars certainly test your patience.

bhill2

fintail said:

In a good way, of course

ab348 said:

The phone may be new, but the car still looks old.

Damn straight!

sda

Anyone remember these? I had an '84 Plymouth Horizon SE in garnet red. It was the 2.2, 5sp, a/c, ps,pb. It ran out pretty well and was a decent car overall, much to the surprise of many that I've talked to. The GLH-S was a mean little cuss.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.M6df4a86f24b6a69e4adb0dc3dd869558o0&w=299&h=181&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0&r=0

uplanderguy

I way-preferred getting those as rental cars in that time period, to K-cars.

fintail

My dad had a Horizon when I was a young kid. Blue on blue, 5-speed, relatively sparsely equipped (vinyl seats etc). He loved it and put many miles on it - said it was the best snow car he ever had. I don't recall it being troublesome.

berri

My kid sister had a Horizon or Omni (can't remember which because they were sort of look-a-likes) blue sedan in college. Lemon!!! My dad had a Plymouth Reliant K car for awhile. Basic, but not really problematic for the days.

tjc78

Before my dad had the 86 Shelby Charger he had a Horizon as well. It was a stripper, but had AC, don't remember why he got rid of it (didn't have it long) but the Shelby was much nicer with cloth seats, cassette, and a sunroof.

My mom at the time had a base model 85 Charger. She got the lemon. That car blew a head gasket under warranty and then the AC basically never worked and the paint peeled off in sheets before it had 50,000 miles.

berri

Did that Charger have one of those Mitsubishi engines that Chrysler sometimes used?

tjc78

No it was the 2.2. We had an Eclass with the Mitsu 2.6. It was actually very reliable.

andre1969

From what I've heard, the Mitsubishi 2.6 wasn't all that bad. It would tend to start burning oil around 70,000 miles, but that was about the worst I've ever heard about it.

sda

andre1969 said:

From what I've heard, the Mitsubishi 2.6 wasn't all that bad. It would tend to start burning oil around 70,000 miles, but that was about the worst I've ever heard about it.

I think the carb set up was the trouble maker with the Mitsu 2.6. I remember looking to buy a '84 Dodge 600 convertible in '86. It had about 25k mi. Very nice, but hesitated and surged horribly. The Dodge dealer said they all did that. It was a real turn off. My '84 Plymouth Horizon that I was looking to trade had the 2.2 and though it could be a little balky on a cold start, it always ran nicely once partially warmed up. The convertible I was considering was identical in color and wheels as this one.
https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.Mc62ba6f66b68a6b80af854dabb3a0954o0&w=300&h=225&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0&r=0

explorerx4

This is kind of a crazy thing:
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/cadillac/fleetwood/1865654.html?refer=home

uplanderguy

It's got a Studebaker Skytop (made by Golde), like my '63 Lark had.

ab348

It's kind of hideous. Seems a shame to use up the last bolts of original upholstery on something like that.