Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

fintail

They are stock on that, too. Maybe the best wheel design ever, best for MB for sure.

I was off on the production number, 1700 units over 4 years, worldwide. The super rare one is the 4Matic AMG variant (which this isn't). Still a hell of a car for around 10K.

explorerx4 said:

@fintail,
The Benz wagon looks great with those monoblock wheels.

uplanderguy

I don't think I've seen a Grand Monarch Ghia, either. I like the black seats with white inserts. A '63 supercharged Studebaker Hawk owned by a friend about an hour away had seats in this color pattern. I always was reminded of a tuxedo. He took it to a Studebaker Drivers' Club international meet in South Dakota probably 20 years ago and was made an offer he couldn't refuse--I'm thinking high 20's. He sold it right there.

My '63 Lark Daytona had the no-cost option of 'matching inserts' in its red vinyl interior. I know it was getting old-hat by then, but I liked the standard white vinyl inserts and wished mine had had them.

qbrozen

This is pretty interesting, even with an automatic.

No idea of value, but that number strikes me as REALLY high.

texases

What is it with the no engine pics?

And RHD with a performance engine is not my idea of fun.

ab348

I'm too old to think that a JDM car makes any sense whatsoever over here.

qbrozen

texases said:

What is it with the no engine pics?

And RHD with a performance engine is not my idea of fun.

watch the video

Mr_Shiftright

not feelin' it Q. Atomic Insect Styling, seats from a realtor's den, a right hooker.....can't do it.

andre1969

I think that Skyline is pretty cool, in the fact that they made a 4-door hardtop out of it. That's gotta be a rare body style, outside of the United States. I know there was a Mercedes Benz Adenauer 4-door hardtop for a year or so, but I can't think of any others, off the top of my head. But otherwise, that Skyline's style is a bit odd. It makes me think of a car from a video game like "Grand Theft Auto" or something like that where they make the cars look almost like the real thing, to the point that you know what they're aping, but they change just enough stuff to avoid copyright infringement, I guess.

FWIW, one of my former co-workers bought a '66 Charger from Gateway Classic Cars back around 2000, from their St. Louis showroom. It was a pretty good car. He had to sell it a couple years later when he hit a financial rough spot, though. It was a 383-4bbl.

uplanderguy

Not feelin' it for that Skyline either, but I'm sure that's not exactly a shocker to anybody.

qbrozen

"a right hooker." LOL

On the '66 Charger, that resto-mod silver one is ending today. Reserve is $18k, which ain't all that bad, I don't think. Bidding is now up to $17,700 with 4 hours to go, so looks like it will sell. Hagerty says an original 318 average value is mid $18s. Is this one worth more or less? I dunno. I do find it quite attractive, personally. The interior needs help, though. Dash and controls are a bit of a mess.

texases

I think I'd rather get a 2011 or so BMW 535i instead of that Nissan for my $17k...

Mr_Shiftright

Worth about the same. You're buying the build, not the car in the case of a retro-mod. So a rod can exceed the value of a stock equivalent, or fail to meet the book value of one, based on what the owner put into it and how well he did it.

Most low-option, commonly found domestics do not lose much value, if any, being resto-modded IMO. Many gain in value.

qbrozen

texases said:

I think I'd rather get a 2011 or so BMW 535i instead of that Nissan for my $17k...

Well, the Nissan would be FAR more reliable! But $17k is just nuts, I agree.

texases

Actually, I don't think that 30-year-old old of a Nissan would be any better than a 5-year-old BMW. And think of the trouble getting parts and repairs.

qbrozen

That Nissan engine has good aftermarket support. I still think it will beat the bimmer, but you have to remember I had a bad time with my twin turbo bimmer, so I'm biased.


On to other things ...

Opinions? Cheap enough, but the "all original" claim seems suspicious. Did it really come with so much overspray from the factory?

I LOVE the looks of this. Appears very nicely done. But to keep the 6-cyl? Why?

texases

Aw, man, now you're making a liar out of me. While I wouldn't want that 30 year old Nissan, I'd LOVE that 32 year old 944, Blaupunkt and all. That's exactly the car I almost bought back then (well, an '83), but bought the GTI instead. Still think that 944 is one of the best looking cars.

That rod is nice, but I agree, odd to have the 6, would limit its use, I'd think.

Michaell

qbrozen said:

That Nissan engine has good aftermarket support. I still think it will beat the bimmer, but you have to remember I had a bad time with my twin turbo bimmer, so I'm biased.


On to other things ...

Opinions? Cheap enough, but the "all original" claim seems suspicious. Did it really come with so much overspray from the factory?

That 944 looks like the one Jake drove in "16 Candles"

Trivia - the license plate on that Porsche was "21850" - which was John Hughes' birthday.

ab348

That Plymouth is pretty cool but that engine would have to be a letdown despite whatever mods it has. If it was built as a homage to how a 1950s rod would have been built, I have to think it would have a period Olds or Cadillac OHV V8 under the hood.

explorerx4

The 944 looks nice. Fuch's type wheels not original(or maybe not original color), has a dash pad, license plate relocated for Porsche insert between taillights. Not saying any of those are bad.
Not sure why I even noticed any of that, other than the dash pad.

ab348

That license plate in the bumper looks weird. And the two "PORSCHE" callouts one above the other on the back looks equally strange.

stickguy

man, I always loved that vintage 944. I would be quite happy to have that one.

fintail

Skyline is a neat car, but the seller must be billing his private import labor at $500/hr. I suspect you can find one like that in Canadia for $10K or so, and it's probably $6K in Japan.

The hardtop MB Adenauer is the 300d (not a diesel, but the 4th variant), 1957-62 (but I suspect few were made at the end of production). Really nice car, but restoring one requires Scrooge McDuck's money pool, so buy a nice one.

Mr_Shiftright

qbrozen said:

That Nissan engine has good aftermarket support. I still think it will beat the bimmer, but you have to remember I had a bad time with my twin turbo bimmer, so I'm biased.


On to other things ...

Opinions? Cheap enough, but the "all original" claim seems suspicious. Did it really come with so much overspray from the factory?

I LOVE the looks of this. Appears very nicely done. But to keep the 6-cyl? Why?

Porsche 944----accident on CARFAX, repainted, engine oil leaks----I don't *think* so.......

Plymouth 1950 -- well it has cool period-correct hot rod equipment, including dual carbs and Offy head. Needs a little cleanup underneath but I'll call this one a GOOD BUY (if it runs out right).

bhill2

fintail said:

Skyline is a neat car, but the seller must be billing his private import labor at $500/hr. I suspect you can find one like that in Canadia for $10K or so, and it's probably $6K in Japan.

The hardtop MB Adenauer is the 300d (not a diesel, but the 4th variant), 1957-62 (but I suspect few were made at the end of production). Really nice car, but restoring one requires Scrooge McDuck's money pool, so buy a nice one.

Fin, I have never seen an Adenauer with a contrasting-color roof. Was that a factory option or is it a repaint (kind of an unusual body color too).

fintail

I've definitely seen other two tone Adenauers before, although usually at the beltline (including hood), not just roof. Like this (note the accessory headrests, super rare):





A quick google even finds a neglected car with a two tone middle section:



And here's a two tone for the roof:



I don't know if this was stock or not, but as these were expensive cars, and MB usually being open to special order cars (for a price), I think it could be stock. I chose that blue one as it is similar to the color of my fintail.

This reminds me of my color too:



I think these cars definitely work well with wide whites.

bhill2 said:

Fin, I have never seen an Adenauer with a contrasting-color roof. Was that a factory option or is it a repaint (kind of an unusual body color too).

Mr_Shiftright

Given that these cars cost considerably more than a Cadillac 75 long wheelbase Fleetwood with all modern options, I'm sure Mercedes would have painted it just about any color you wanted.

fintail

I don't have an original price list, but I do have a UK price list for January, 1960. The base pre-tax price of a 300d Adenauer was 3685 GBP. The base pre-tax price of a Silver Cloud II was 4095 GBP. A then-brand-new 220SE fintail based at 1898 GBP. This was the old high value pre-decimal Pound, worth about $2.80 in 1960.

Michaell

fintail said:

I don't have an original price list, but I do have a UK price list for January, 1960. The base pre-tax price of a 300d Adenauer was 3685 GBP. The base pre-tax price of a Silver Cloud II was 4095 GBP. A then-brand-new 220SE fintail based at 1898 GBP. This was the old high value pre-decimal Pound, worth about $2.80 in 1960.

Just cuz I'm an inflation geek, I did the math.

3685 * 2.8 = $10,318 in 1960 dollars.

My inflation calculator shows that to be about $85K today.

bhill2

Fin, thanks for posting the pictures. They jiggled the handle of my memory (also sometimes necessary on old toilets). I do remember seeing pictures of Adenauers with the two-tone treatment of the first two you posted, and I find this treatment rather attractive. Shifty is probably right that at the price you paid for one of these, for a little more you could "have it your way".

Mr_Shiftright

It might have been fairly competitive with the Rolls or Bentley but the Cadillac Fleetwood Limo was more powerful and had many more modern amenities, for less money than either.




When JFK visited Berlin, he apparently brought his own car. That's Willy Brandt and Adenauer with him I think:

uplanderguy

I've always been astounded that they used the car JFK was killed in, up through Carter. I'd have thought they'd have scrapped it.

fintail

I am not sure how the Adenauer was supposed to fit in the market, maybe selling mostly to Teutonophiles and brand enthusiasts. It wasn't aimed at a chauffeur as much as a Silver Cloud or Fleetwood, but was priced within sight of both. It wasn't as traditional and stately as the British car, but not as flashy as the American. MB would have this problem again with the W112 300SE fintail, which also wasn't terribly cheaper than a Rolls-Royce, but looked like any other W111 fintail to most people, as most of the difference was inside and under the hood.

I suspect for a few hundred dollars, a few two tone choices were possible. It's the same for ponton and fintail sedans - two tone examples are seldom-seen, but they exist.

fintail

Inflation and CPI data can be fun. I wonder how to compare it with a new model. Base S550 is just over 100K, but an Adenauer is fancier than that, relative to the lineup. Maybe the S600 which bases around 170K or the "Maybach" S600, which bases around 190K. Could be worse - a Silver Cloud II would be the Ghost today, 295K base.

And in some areas, comparing that with other things is fascinating or depressing. Not long after 1960, my grandparents bought a new modern 3/2/2 rambler on a quarter acre in a somewhat outlying development, for just under 2x the price of that new Adenauer. Houses in the area can bring 20x their original price now.

Michaell said:

Just cuz I'm an inflation geek, I did the math.

3685 * 2.8 = $10,318 in 1960 dollars.

My inflation calculator shows that to be about $85K today.

uplanderguy

Matter of fact, the driver in that pic with JFK is Bill Greer, the man who was driving in Dallas on 11/22/63 when Kennedy was assassinated.

Mr_Shiftright

I think the Adenauer was a flagship type of car for Mercedes, trying to get back into the high end game after the war. They were on a roll with the 300SL & 300S & SC as well. Keep in mind that the 170s and 220s were, in base form, expensive but rather humble cars. I owned a 220B Cabriolet for a little while, and while it was beautifully built, it was quite a spartan little car compared to anything American.

fintail

I took my 220 (SEb) out on the road today. Started without effort as usual, ran and drove fine, got a few compliments and looks. Today I tried out a different dashcam app, and instead of pics, a few more videos with loud oldies station audio. Using a phone mic exaggerates the sound - I generally don't play music at high volume anywhere.

The camera mount blocking the view at right is irking me, going to need to fix that. At right is westbound I-90, with a backup that often happens even on weekdays, due to volume and timid local drivers:

https://youtu.be/65iePoBbssA

I like to do a bit of driving through these 50s-60s era neighborhoods. They fit well with old cars, and the wide streets are nice for a relaxed drive. Encountering a little kid pushing a bike in the middle of the street was unusual (blocked by copyright in Canada, gotta love it):

https://youtu.be/3veAChtGghI

And finally, some engine noise. I pulled a steep hill, and about 20 seconds in, realized I should have the radio off. Maybe I will do that more in the future:

https://youtu.be/CBws2x8yUro

This app seems to go out of focus more than I am used to, not sure if it is the app or just coincidence.

andre1969

That ~$10,300 for the Adenauer actually doesn't sound *too* horrendous in my opinion, for a prestige car. Around that timeframe, my grandparents went through three well-equipped Ford products: a '57 Fairlane 500 4-door hardtop, a '61 Galaxie 4-door hardtop, and a '63 Monterrey 4-door hardtop. Each one was around $3500 (seemed like car prices kind of peaked around '58-59 and then actually got a bit cheaper for a bit).

So, it looks like the Adenauer was around 3x the price of a mainstream full-sized car in that era. Doesn't sound too lofty, although I'd guess even the Adenauer had a pretty long option list? In the case of the cars my grandparents bought, they were fairly well-equipped for the time...big engines, automatic, power steering/brakes, radio, heater, etc...all that crap we take for granted nowadays. They still had crank windows and no a/c though.

I guess nowadays, a typical mainstream wanna-be full-sized car might be around $30K? What does an S-class start at these days? $90-100K? So, I guess maybe that 3:1 ratio is still fairly intact?

texases

3XAvalon = S-type. Yep, still holds.

fintail

An Adenauer would have some options - Automatic was an option, I think certain paint would be an option, small things that could add up.

Maybe it's the higher than S-class end that has inflated more (kind of works with the growing wealth gap etc). A famous Rolls-Royce ad from 1959:

Mr_Shiftright

That's IF the clock worked!

An Adenauer sedan isn't worth the cost of restoration by a long shot, and would be a very poor investment. However, the very rare Adenauer cabriolet could bring upwards of $150K, but alas, would probably cost that to restore. At least you might break close to even. I think they only made 65 of them, so they are somewhat precious.

Michaell

fintail said:

An Adenauer would have some options - Automatic was an option, I think certain paint would be an option, small things that could add up.

Maybe it's the higher than S-class end that has inflated more (kind of works with the growing wealth gap etc). A famous Rolls-Royce ad from 1959:

$13,995 in 1959 = $116,705 today.

No new RR sells for that amount these days

fintail

New Ghost (comparable model to Silver Cloud) is near 300K today. Add another 100K for a Phantom.

If only local real estate inflated like cars.

Michaell said:

$13,995 in 1959 = $116,705 today.

No new RR sells for that amount these days

fintail

I think the same can be said for most any postwar MB sedan, if not most sedans of any brand. You'll never run in the black.

A 300d Cabrio would technically be a "300d Cabriolet D", which amuses me somehow.

Mr_Shiftright said:

That's IF the clock worked!

An Adenauer sedan isn't worth the cost of restoration by a long shot, and would be a very poor investment. However, the very rare Adenauer cabriolet could bring upwards of $150K, but alas, would probably cost that to restore. At least you might break close to even. I think they only made 65 of them, so they are somewhat precious.

explorerx4

I cracked up reading #11 optional extras.

Mr_Shiftright

#7 is a myth actually. Royce changed it himself because many customers felt the red clashed with certain colors--even the Prince of Wales was whining about it.

texases

Anyone heard of this collection/dealer before? Amazing number of JDM cars:
http://jalopnik.com/have-your-mind-blown-by-the-most-amazing-secret-car-col-1792485778

xwesx

texases said:

Anyone heard of this collection/dealer before? Amazing number of JDM cars:
http://jalopnik.com/have-your-mind-blown-by-the-most-amazing-secret-car-col-1792485778

Mind = blown. Pretty cool place; and interesting also that this is an active dealership as well as a collection.

stickguy

Wow.

fintail

His for-sale stock isn't priced too poorly. Now that 25 year old cars are more modern and interesting, there will be a bit of this stuff coming over. There are quite a few old JDM cars that are pretty cool. I'd take a Toyota Century or Soarer or maybe a big Mazda coupe.

texases said:

Anyone heard of this collection/dealer before? Amazing number of JDM cars:
http://jalopnik.com/have-your-mind-blown-by-the-most-amazing-secret-car-col-1792485778

xwesx

fintail said:

His for-sale stock isn't priced too poorly. Now that 25 year old cars are more modern and interesting, there will be a bit of this stuff coming over. There are quite a few old JDM cars that are pretty cool. I'd take a Toyota Century or Soarer or maybe a big Mazda coupe.

texases said:

Anyone heard of this collection/dealer before? Amazing number of JDM cars:
http://jalopnik.com/have-your-mind-blown-by-the-most-amazing-secret-car-col-1792485778

I am finding those little kei trucks really interesting. For 6-7K, they seem like a decent buy.