Hybrids in the News

backy · January 2005

Maybe you could write to your Congresspeople to encourage them to inact subsidies on diesel fuel, as they have in the EU countries, to encourage people to buy cars that burn (cheaper) diesel fuel. That legislation would make news!

gagrice · January 2005

They already have, it is called biodiesel incentives. The only way we are going to slow down the use of fossil fuel is to grow our own. If we quit all this "pie in the sky" hybrid/fuel cell waste of money, we can put more land to farming and lower our GHG, while slowing the flow of oil into the USA and dollars out of the USA.

http://www.biodiesel.org/news/taxincentive/

backy · January 2005

Where do you think the hydrogen for fuel cells will come from?

http://www.dti.gov.uk/renewable/hydrogen_howitworks.html

robertsmx · January 2005

The only way we are going to slow down the use of fossil fuel is to grow our own.

Nothing is free. To get something, you have to give something else. In this case, land and everything that goes to make it fertile to meet the immense demand that we have.

There is no simple solution to anything, but you don't get to it without trying. Thats why some companies prefer to invest in their future rather than live in the present (or simply choose to follow).

backy · January 2005

While fuel cells will lead to the ultimate zero emission vehicle, they are still too expensive to enter the marketplace. But we do not have to wait for fuel cell vehicles to begin reaping the benefits of hydrogen as a super clean energy carrier...

http://www.h2gen.com/energy_fuelcell.htm#Hybrid

stevewa · January 2005

Hydrogen is an energy storage medium. Unless you can get H2 gas for free out of thin air (so to speak) you have to spend energy converting something else into H2. You can get H2 gas by electrolizing water (byproducts H2 and O2) which requires a great deal of electricity. Or, you can liberate H2 from hydrocarbons (fossil fuels) which unfotunately still releases CO2 as well, and is dependent on a limited resource.

Biodiesel may be part of the solution, but remember the fertilizer that's used to grow the crops, the equipment used to harvest it, all involve petroleum.

backy · February 2005

You don't get gasoline for "free" either. Remember there's the dinosaurs that have to die, the immense pressure over millions of years to create the oil, then the refining process (and shipping, that takes energy also) to get the gas to end-users.

As you noted, there are ways to generate hydrogen that involve no expenditure of farmland or petroleum. You can't say the same for gasoline or biodiesel.

larsb · February 2005

I dont know if anyone posted this new review yet, but here it is:

http://macleans.auto123.com/en/site/printpage/printpage,view,Lexus.spy?

electrictroy · February 2005

Actually gasoline IS free. You drill a hole, and there it is. It doesn't cost us anything except the energy to pull it out of the ground. It's like a giant bank account filled with $1 trillion dollars! Just take all you want!

No so with hydrogen. It doesn't exist naturally, so you have to expend huge amounts of energy breaking apart H2O to create H2. It's like an empty bank account ($0.00) and you have to fill it up.

With H2, you end up spending more than you get back.

troy

p.s. And for those who say, "we can use solar to make H2" I respond: "Why not just dump the solar directly to your car battery? Why waste time making H2???"

yerth10 · February 2005

The whole reason Hydrogen is proposed is because battery powered vehicles (BEV) have a shorter range.

However that is changing,

Lead based BEV had 60 miles range

Nickel based BEV had 120 miles range

Lithium based BEV had 180 miles range

Further improvement in Li can make it 300 miles some day. Anyway even if it becomes economical to make hydrogen, the future vehicle will have both Battery (for shorter range) and Hydrogen tank (for longer range).

Meanwhile the latest FCV, GM-Sequel has got 300 mile range. So tech-wise FCV overtakes BEV.

dewey · February 2005

Ghosn is absolutely right!!!

A BMW 330d would answer the prayers of all thrill seeking green tinted enthusiasts!

Combined fuel consumption: 43mpg

0-62: 7.2 seconds

With those specs, who needs hybrids!!!

http://www.bmw.co.uk/apm/new_bmw/mid/index/0,4504,1156_1490__,00.- html

robertsmx · February 2005

I was trying to avoid getting into hydrogen debate in this thread (since another exists for the purpose), but since it continues, here Im.

Actually gasoline IS free. You drill a hole, and there it is. It doesn't cost us anything except the energy to pull it out of the ground.

No so with hydrogen. It doesn't exist naturally, so you have to expend huge amounts of energy breaking apart H2O to create H2.

Nope. Here is the deal with gasoline/diesel:

Get oil out of wells (requires energy, and not free)

Transport them to refineries for use in vehicles (requires energy, and not free)

Transport them to pumps (requires energy, and not free)

Pump runs on electricity

Here is the deal with hydrogen as is being accomplished at an installation:

Transport water to extraction unit (requires energy, and not free)

Employ solar energy to separate hydrogen from water (energy from sun)

Pump runs on electricity

In other words, a big deal is being made out of hydrogen extraction process without acknowledging technologies that are already being used. Nothing is free, not hydrogen, not gasoline or diesel.

And for those who say, "we can use solar to make H2" I respond: "Why not just dump the solar directly to your car battery? Why waste time making H2???"

Sure. That may very well be the future, although depending on solar energy could potentially make night time driving questionable once the range is done with, even if the cloudy days werent issue any more. Bigger issue is, however, efficiency of solar panels. How much do you need for a continuous supply of electricity for a conventionally sized vehicle for a conventional range? Hence the need for fuel like hydrogen, gasoline or diesel that you can store somewhere.

robertsmx · February 2005

Remember, 330d is coming from the same company that is also bragging about its hydrogen powered cars, and has its own hybrid development in progress. Ghosn doesnt believe in those efforts.

gagrice · February 2005

coming from the same company that is also bragging about its hydrogen powered cars, and has its own hybrid development in progress.

You need to ask the question, WHY? Because the waste-mongers in our various governments use this as a way to slip money into the pockets of the corporations that in turn slip money into their re-election coffers. Has nothing to do with what is viable or practical for our environment.

robertsmx · February 2005

I know the answer to the simple question: WHY? But thats not the only simple question. There are more, like HOW? and WHEN?

Without these, inventions and discoveries couldn't be had. They don't drop from the heavens. This is before you can even talk about viability and practicality.

mirth · February 2005

There's a hilarious article about the Prius in this week's Onion:

http://www.theonion.com

yerth10 · February 2005

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/02/january_2005_hy.html

#

Prius - 5,566

Civic - 1,169

Escape - 908

Accord - 812

Total - 8,455

%

Prius - 65.8

Civic - 13.8

Escape - 10.7

Accord - 9.6

Total - 100.0

Note : HAH may include Insight, since its not given separately.

So Toyota has only 65 % market share, down from 80 % sometime ago.

mirth · February 2005

JD Powers predict hybrid sales hitting a max of 3% of the market:

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0502/03/01-79067.htm

robertsmx · February 2005

Honda sold more NSX than Insight (only 7 units) in January

yerth10 · February 2005

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1224745,00020010.htm

Toyota and Subaru tie-up for Hybrid tech.

moparbad · February 2005

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0502/04/autos-79883.htm

Despite the growing popularity of hybrid vehicles and a slew of new models scheduled in the next few years, the market share for the fuel-saving vehicles is expected to peak at about 3 percent by 2010, a new study from the forecasting arm of J.D. Power and Associates said Thursday.

Hype over hybrids is just that, hype.

larsb · February 2005

I do respect JD Power's broad assumptions, but I think their number is a little low.

It will certainly prove to be low if gas prices hit $5-$6 a gallon in the US by 2010 as some analysts are predicting.

Something else which will increase Hybrid numbers by a lot is if someone (Toyota, Honda, GM) produces a diesel hybrid 4 door sedan which makes 60-70 MPG, which is possible with today's technology. That vehicle, using clean diesel fuel, would be one of the cleanest and most efficient cars on the road.

Another research firm puts the Hybrid sales by 2010 at 1 million cars, which is about 5% of the market:

"Now, a growing interest in hybrids has rekindled the hopes of the electricity-firsters. Global demand for hybrids is estimated to rise from about 200,000 units produced annually to more than 1 million vehicles a year by 2010, according to ABI Research, an international market-research firm, in a report last year. If only 1% of these were converted to run primarily on electricity, it would create a base of more than 30,000 vehicles by the end of the decade."

see that story here:

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinnovations/2005-01-28-plug- - ged-in-hybrids_x.htm

moparbad · February 2005

http://www.freep.com/money/autoreviews/phelan3e_20050203.htm

The hybrids fell as much as 40 percent below the EPA mileage figures for combined city and highway driving during my recent test, which covered a mix of Detroit-area roads.

robertsmx · February 2005

"As much as" versus "as little as" are used a bit too liberally in sales/marketing pitch as it is in this case.

If you care about EPA numbers, it isn't hybrid technology's responsibility to manage it. EPA applies its standardized procedures to come up with those numbers. If it fails in reality, how is it a hybrid problem?

It would be far more logical to throw in comparisons under similar conditions (like C&D's Fuel Misers article, that included Civic Hybrid, Prius, Echo and Jetta TDI, from last year) and then we see where the technology stands. "As little as" or "as much as" means nothing.

larsb · February 2005

quote moparbad-"The hybrids fell as much as 40 percent below the EPA mileage figures for combined city and highway driving during my recent test, which covered a mix of Detroit-area roads."-end quote

This is an example of the misinformation which is hurting Hybrid sales.

There is a method on the Honda Civic Hybrid which allows the driver to turn off the A/C compressor when the defroster is running, thus diminishing the "lost MPG" that this writer saw. PLUS, he did this test in the DEAD OF COLD winter, when ALL CARS take longer to warm up and get to full operating efficiency.

This past December, I drove my HCH in a cold (15F-35F) Texas winter for about five days, and I got 37 MPG instead of my usual 47-52 MPG. Cold weather hurts ALL cars performance.

One test drive is FAR FAR too short a test to give a broad conclusion of how Hybrids perform.

He also quoted the only Hybrid owner who publicized his displeasure with the hybrid before he was willing to learn how to drive it and get max MPG. It's a game, a method of driving, which gets the high MPG.

One thing for sure: "If you drive ANY car just like a regular car, you will not get EPA numbers" because the EPA test is flawed in regard to the way driving is done today.

Personally, I am getting 47.5 MPG in my Honda Civic Hybrid over the first 9000 miles, and that is with a short city commute.

backy · February 2005

22.8 mpg on a Prius? I'd say the test driver wasn't trying very hard. I've test driven the Prius in cold (20 F), slippery conditions, and I easily got over 50 mpg on the highway and upper 20s in a worst-case trip (short, cold engine, full passenger load, cold weather, slippery, lots of stops etc.). Also I know of Prius owners in Minnesota who get far above 40 mpg even in the winter. But an article stating hybrids get 40% less than EPA averages does help draw people to the ads on one's web site.

robertsmx · February 2005

Perhaps those people think HCH is rated to get 66 mpg. ;-)

mirth · February 2005

PLUS, he did this test in the DEAD OF COLD winter, when ALL CARS take longer to warm up and get to full operating efficiency.

Very true, but hybrids get pretty much the mileage of their ICE equivalents when it's very cold, so if you live in Minnesota or somewhere like it, where it's cold 6-7 months of the year, that's an issue - the issue being, what did I spend an extra $3000 for?

There is a method on the Honda Civic Hybrid which allows the driver to turn off the A/C compressor when the defroster is running

I wonder how well that works in very cold temps (under 20 degrees).

gagrice · February 2005

Buy used Pri'i with 100k miles that have lost most of their resale value. Add enough battery power to go 50 miles on electric only. Add an AC charger. Sell the refurbed car for near new price and get some real fuel savings. The plug-in hybrid is the only solution that would fit my needs in a runabout car. Somebody beat me to it....

Meanwhile, a not-for-profit outfit called CalCars in San Francisco is modifying two Priuses by adding more battery power and a plug. The group has discovered an empty space under the hatch near the current battery that looks almost as if Toyota intended to do this itself one day.

mirth · February 2005

...is a good idea. What's wrong with having an extra battery that's a plug-in?

moparbad · February 2005

quote larsb- This is an example of the misinformation which is hurting Hybrid sales. -end

Mark Phelan tells it like it is. If you attempt to discredit his article as misinformation, it would be logical to conlude that Mark's statement regarding the Honda Accord Hybrid "Bottom line: The Accord has been the best midsize family sedan sold in America for a long time. And this new Accord is the best of them all." is also misinformation.

It is common knowledge that the EPA estimates inflate the mpg of hybrids compared to real world mpg, EPA is aware of this and is developing a test that would be more accurate for all vehicles.

It is clear that you view any information that does not worship a hybrid to be incorrect.

Mark Phelan rates the HAH 4 stars out of 4. Hmmm....you must be right larsb, Mark is a spreader of misinformation...

larsb · February 2005

quote moparbad-"Mark Phelan tells it like it is. If you attempt to discredit his article as misinformation. It is common knowledge that the EPA estimates inflate the mpg of hybrids compared to real world mpg, EPA is aware of this and is developing a test that would be more accurate for all vehicles. It is clear that you view any information that does not worship a hybrid to be incorrect."-end quote

I dont really care one iota about Mr. Phelan's number of stars he gives the Accord Hybrid - it does not affect his other misinformation. Just because a person is wrong or right on one issue does not make him equally wrong or right on ALL issues.

What he did was publish a story which paints the Hybrids in an INCORRECTLY bad light.

His test got 22.8 MPG in a Prius - that alone should tell you his testing was flawed ! I too can get into a cold Prius and drive it like heck and run the defroster the whole time (thus using the A/C) and warm the car up before the drive and get bad mileage on one short test run.

But does that test adequately reflect the capability of the Prius line of cars? Heck no !!

Many hybrids drivers are FAR FAR exceeding EPA numbers in their hybrids. Browse on over to a certain "blue plus yellow" hybrid.com website and look at the Real Mileage Database. You will see the great MPG numbers this fabulous and amazing technology allows drivers to achieve, something never before possible in 4 door cars, diesel or otherwise, until Hybrids hit the USA. There are 3 drivers averaging more than 90 MPG over the life of their Honda Insights !!

All cars suffer in the cold of winter, not just hybrids, you know that, right? Cars do not reach peak MPG efficiency until they warm up and reach peak operating temps. Hybrids included. And running the A/C compressor in winter put s double whammy on MPG figures, which is where the defroster problem came into play.

EPA tests "inflating" scores on the Hybrids is not an indictment of the hybrid - it's an indictment of the flaws of the test !!

The Prius does better in city driving (by design) because of the battery effect and the EPA test did skew that a little bit, but smart drivers can get very near that 60 MPG consistently. The EPA MPG numbers for the Civic Hybrid and the Honda Insight are VERY much achievable to the average driver.

Publishing data which is incorrect by saying that Hybrids suffer 40% loss of EPA numbers while in the cold, based on ONE SHORT TEST DRIVE, is bad reporting. NO CAR he could have chosen to test on that day under those conditions would have achieved EPA numbers. Plain and simple misinformation.

robertsmx · February 2005

Mark Phelan tells it like it is

Not really.

gagrice · February 2005

Many hybrids drivers are FAR FAR exceeding EPA numbers in their hybrids. Browse on over to a certain "blue plus yellow" hybrid.com website and look at the Real Mileage Database.

I am looking at greenhybrid and only 10% of the Prius II drivers are achieving EPA or greater. 90% are under the EPA estimate and about 23% are getting about 80% of what they were lead to believe they would get by all the hype.

The only hybrids getting close to estimates are the Honda Insight and Civic hybrid. The HAH is a loser and the Escape hybrid is not much better. So I guess that writer was misleading when he gave the HAH such high marks...

Plus the misconception that winter makes a huge difference in gas and diesel engine mileage. It doesn't seem to make much difference summer to winter in the Arctic.

larsb · February 2005

quote gagrice-"Plus the misconception that winter makes a huge difference in gas and diesel engine mileage."-end quote

That is indeed not a misconception - it is a fact that a cold engine performs less well in regard to MPG than an optimially warmed up engine.

I can post dozens of pieces of info to prove this. If you REALLY TRULY think that cold does not have an effect on MPG, let me know, and I will start posting solid data....

backy · February 2005

It doesn't seem to make much difference summer to winter in the Arctic.

I don't suppose those four days of summer would really make much difference in the overall averages, would it? ;-)

larsb · February 2005

quote gagrice-"about 23% are getting about 80% of what they were lead to believe they would get by all the hype."-end quote

EPA numbers are not "hype" - they use an industry standard test that has been used virtually unchanged for decades.

The EPA does not "hype" anything, they just test and report.

And as far as achieving EPA in the Prius II, the gh.com average is 48 MPG across 99 Prius II cars, which is 84% of EPA combined average MPG rating. The Prius I cars are getting 94% of the EPA rating.

That's not perfect, but that's far better than the sorry news report that said they only get 60% of EPA - what a full load of junk that was !!!

gagrice · February 2005

The EPA does not "hype" anything, they just test and report

I don't believe I mentioned the EPA hyping anything. They hype is from the media and advertising.

If I bought a car for the specific purpose to save gas. I would expect it to get close to what was on the window sticker. I cannot remember any new car that I have gotten worse than the EPA estimate. In the case of the Prius MOST drivers are getting less than the EPA. Then to rub salt in the wound you get people telling them they don't know how to drive economically. Especially when only two out of 99 drivers with more than 5000 miles on their Prius are getting 55 mpg as advertised. That is a pretty lousy percentage IMHO.

larsb · February 2005

quote gagrice-"they were lead to believe they would get by all the hype."-end quote

What they were "led to believe" should have been the EPA numbers on the sticker. That sticker number is not hype, but was actually performed by the EPA testers.

If a car ad says "60 City/55 Hwy", and that's what the EPA testing showed, how is that "hype?"

larsb · February 2005

quote gagrice-"If I bought a car for the specific purpose to save gas. I would expect it to get close to what was on the window sticker."-end quote

And the average high mileage Hybrids (prius, HCH) DO achieve between 84% and 94% of the EPA, and if you throw in the Insight, it can easily achieve MORE than 100% of the EPA numbers. In fact, the average Insight at gh.com averages 63 MPG, which is 111% of EPA.

You take those three cars, take the gh.com average, and that comes out to 96% of EPA. I think in all cases, that can be considered "close to what was on the sticker."

moparbad · February 2005

http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_gain_without_pain_2/index.htm

moparbad · February 2005

quote larsb- That sticker number is not hype, but was actually performed by the EPA testers. -end

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/how_tested.shtml

EPA "testing" is 100% laboratory testing. Vehicles do not drive 1 mile on an actual roadway.

"IF" people only drove their vehicles in a laboratory they could obtain EPA mpg too.

Most of us drive in the real world on roads.

misterme · February 2005

"I cannot remember any new car that I have gotten worse than the EPA estimate"

I've never owned a car that ever did the EPA estimate, except my HCH, which far exceeds. I'm sure you do the calculations but most people have no clue to what they are actually getting. They could be under by a large margin and be ignorantly happy. I'd say a vast majority fall well short of the estimates

I'll make this "man on the street" challenge:

Go around your office and friends and ask them what their cars calculated MPG is. 95% Won't know other than a guessed figure or simply "Pretty good mileage".

Here's more proof: When I refuel, 100% Of the time I'm the only one who actually writes down figures at the pump. Sometimes people look as to wonder what I'm doing. Clueless.

Another example is my Grand Caravan which EPA estimates at 19/21. I'll be darned if I can only squeeze 18 out of it occasionally. The GC FCD usually displays an errant 22-24MPG. I think most people would use that figure and feel good about it.

Sylvia · February 2005

Posted with Permission from Ron Cogan:

Green Car Journal: State of the Union and the Importance of Alternative Fuels

(CSRwire) SAN LUIS OBISPO, CA - As President Bush made a brief but important mention of hydrogen and ethanol in his State of the Union address, there surely were millions of Americans wondering just what these fuels could offer the U.S. as it battles a growing dependence on oil, much of it imported from unstable regions of the world.

While but a subtle backdrop to the President's larger discussion of Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Middle East in general, energy dependency is an interrelated and important issue.

According to the Energy Information Administration, the U.S. consumed 25% of the world's oil consumption in 2003 but was responsible for only 10% of the world's oil production, and held but 2% of the world's oil reserves. This is contrasted by the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC), which held 68% of the world's oil reserves in that year and produced 41% of the world's oil.

"These stark statistics illustrate how important it is that we use oil as intelligently as possible," says Ron Cogan, editor and publisher of the Green Car Journal, a magazine that focuses on the intersection of automobiles, energy, and the environment. "High fuel efficiency cars like hybrids and advanced diesels that make the most of a gallon of conventional fuel are an important part of this equation," Cogan adds, "as is a growing inclusion of renewable fuels like ethanol, biodiesel, and ultimately, hydrogen."

In his State of the Union address, President Bush pointed out his support for leading-edge technology such as hydrogen-fueled cars and renewable sources like ethanol. The President renewed the strong commitment he made in his 2003 State of the Union address, in which he pledged a total of $1.2 billion to develop technologies and infrastructure to support the commercialization of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.

Today, with the aid of this government funding, the process is underway with various consortia of automakers, energy companies, and others now opening the country's first hydrogen fueling stations and fielding demonstration fleets of fuel cell vehicles to use them. Still, the transition to a hydrogen economy that many envision has a long road of research and development ahead, with the commercially viable hydrogen vehicles that will help drive this economy a decade or more down the road.

"The use of ethanol as an alternative fuel to supplement gasoline supplies is a potentially promising near-term solution, but one not without its challenges," says Cogan. "Nearly four million flexible-fuel vehicles made by half-a-dozen automakers are now on American roads, all capable of running on any mixture of gasoline or E-85 ethanol (a combination of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline) in the same tank. The problem is, the number of ethanol stations can be counted in the hundreds, while conveniently-located gasoline stations number about 170,000 nationwide." The result, Cogan points out, is that most flexible-fuel vehicles are running on gasoline.

Considered by many the "auto magazine of today," Green Car Journal has achieved critical acclaim with 16 International Automotive Media Awards since its launch in 2003, building on the expertise of 14 years of publishing the authoritative, auto industry-focused Green Car newsletter. Excerpts from Green Car Journal's print edition can be found on the magazine's companion website, Green Car Journal Online, at http://www.greencar.com.

Additional information on Green Car Journal and Ron Cogan, as well as high resolution images, can be found at http://www.greencar.com/media.

larsb · February 2005

Good article which discusses why "larger" Hybrids are also a good idea:

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVF- eXkyOSZmZ2JlbDdmN3ZxZWVFRXl5NjY0NTQyOCZ5cmlyeTdmNzE3Zjd2cWVlRUV5e- TI=

dewey · February 2005

hybrid high performance AWD Acuras!

http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_acura_hybrid_definitely/index.htm

timber104 · February 2005

If you watched the super bowl last night, there was a commercial for Toyota Prius Hybrids there. It seemed to be over 30 seconds & at 2.4 million for a 30 second spot, I have to ask why?

It seems that most (not all) are waiting for there Prius's, about 6 months on average. Some sooner & some later. With Toyota bringing out more models it would have been to see more of what they are bringing out in the next year or so.

Why do you think they put the Prius on TV? Do you think they want a longer waiting list?

larsb · February 2005

As far as supply, the Prius waiting lists are thinning out as Toyota is living up to it's promise of providing more cars in 2005.

I saw two used 2004 cars on a lot two weeks ago, and five ads for new Priuses in the newspaper, three of them from dealers who had 2005 cars on the lot for sale.

"Toyota continued to lead the market with 5,566 units of the Prius in January 2005  an increase over January 2004 sales by 90%."

So the Priuses are much more readily available now than they were a few months ago.

Something else important that Toyota wanted to address is ONE of the many misconceptions:

The ad specifically said you "never have to plug it in."

For some reason, the "general public" still EVEN NOW has a problem understanding that the Priuses (and the other Hybrids too) do not need to be plugged in.

I think Toyota wanted to get the Prius back in the attention span of the dozens of millions of Americans watching the game. They want to sell about 100,000 Priuses this year, and the January sales number 12 times is about 35,000 cars shy of 100,000 sold.

I leapt for joy when I saw the commercial, since I'm such a Hybrid promoter myself.....

gagrice · February 2005

Do you think they want a longer waiting list?

I think they are trying to give the perception that they are "Green" when in fact they sell a whole string of gas guzzling vehicles. Toyota luxury SUVs are bigger polluters than any SUV Ford or Chevy sells.

electrictroy · February 2005

"It is common knowledge that the EPA estimates inflate the mpg of hybrids compared to real world mpg, EPA is aware of this and is developing a test that would be more accurate for all vehicles."

.

correction: The *city* test is inaccurate, because the electric motor skews the results. The highway test (where the electric motor is rarely used) is just fine & as accurate for hybrids as for non-hybrids.

In other words, ignore the "60mpg city" and "35mpg city" claim for the Prius & Escape, because they're wrong. Focus your attention on the highway ratings, and that's approximately what you'll get on the interstate.

troy

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