How would motortrend know, they are pretty accurate but they are just assuming. i believe toyota will give the es a 3.5 engine with its more conservative styling. Toyota is now on the move to attract younger buyers with more powerful engines and better styling.
the ES350 will get somewhere in the area of 270-275 horsepower.
Afterall, it can't be overshadowed by the less expensive Avalon, Camry V6, and RAV4.
The Avalon isn't a problem, but the Camry V6 could be. An ES has to be putting out more power than a Camry so people can justify paying more for the Lexus edition
I'm sure it will have more HP than a Camry V6 as usual. The question is whether it will be significantly more or a trivial amount just to be able to say it has more power.
Both the new Camry ( V6 versions ) and the ES will most likely get 6 speed automatic transmission. However, I have read in more than one article that the new Camry will get a 3.3L engine whereas the ES will most likely get the 3.5L. The new 3.3L engine is not based on the bore and stroked version of the old 3.0L engine that has been around since the early 90s but a de stroked version of the new 3.5L engine
Will the 2007 ES be a 'real' Lexus in that it will not share the same platform with the 2007 Camry? Will there there enough difference between the 07 ES and 07 Camry so people can no longer say it is just another dressed up Camry?
There will be a new ES around summer 2006, more than likely. Completely redesigned, with the 3.5L V6 268 horse engine more than likely the powerplant. 2006 is a lame-duck year.
If you pay cheaply enough or get a really good lease deal it will be worth getting a 2005 or 2006 since they won't have discounting on the new model for some time since there is always heavy interest and pent up demand from people waiting for the new model to come out. You could get a lease a 2006 for 3 years then at the lease end go into a 2008-2009 ES at a heavy discount and save on both cars rather than paying the premium to get a 2007 while it is the new, hot model.
The Black Diamond Edition looks nice, and since they're only making 3,000ish copies of it, that'd be the one to buy if you're going to get a 2006 on closeout.
Have you thought about leasing a ES330 on a 3 year lease, and then buy a 2008-2009 model at invoice? You'll be driving the latest design still for 3-4 years.
and therefore no show in Tokyo. The only show they will release the ES and Camry will be Detroit show. And they are still the same car. 268Hp Avalon engine, also on Rav 4, Camry, ES, RX, and later on Sienna and highlander.
Camry I-4 Hybrid should be earlier than summer, since it should be made in Japan first and imported.
I don't think that is true anymore. Toyota is introducing the LEXUS brand in Japan starting this year. I am sure the WINDOM will be renamed the Lexus ES.
In Hong Kong, they sell the Toyota Windom alongside the Lexus ES330.
So badge kits are popular. You get the slanted L, and the ES330 badge.
They are cosmetically exact, except for the badges and the logo on the steering wheel.
So the only way to tell is to peek inside at the steering wheel, or get a glance at the license plate if they got the plates from the only Lexus dealer in Hong Kong- Crown Motor Cars. The Toyota ones will say Toyota, Crown Motors, and the Lexus ones will say Lexus, Crown Motors.
They also sell a Toyota Harrier and a Lexus RX300 (they used the old 3.0L for some reason) side by side in the same dealership, both cosmetically identical. The badge kits are also popular.
So in Japan they might keep the Windom, for all we know.
It's the ES, just not exactly as it will debut. The profile and shape is correct, the back end is not what I would expect. The wheels are probably very close to what will debut.
In my opinion, whether they will keep the Windom or go to Lexus depends on how status conscious the Japanese are, as measured by Japanese purchasers' willingness to pay a premium to have "Lexus" versus "Toyota" on their vehicles. It appears as though Toyota marketing believes that Japanese purchasers are status conscious, hence the Lexus luxury line in Japan.
No matter how we look at things, Lexus is still made by Toyota.
Your idea is great in theory. At this time, folks are paying a premium for 2006es over 2005s. I discovered this when I did an Edmund's TMV on the respective model years. The difference in prices was about 6% of MSRP, which on a $37000 MSRP amounts to $2220. So, if you buy a 2006 now, you can get the options you want but it will cost you $2220 over the 2005; not worth it to me.
If a person decides to wait for the price of the 2006s to drop (which I think it will), I know Toyota enough to know that selection will be very limited, particularly as it gets closer to the 2007 appearing on dealer lots. You may not be able to find the options you want if you wait for the 2006 price to drop.
Hmm !!! that is surprising. What would be the point of selling two identical cars, one with the T and one with the L on the steering wheel ? Are they going to do this for the forseeable future ? Once the new ES comes out I think everybody will get the Lexus version and not the Toyota version. Toyota wants to compete against the Europeans with more upscale products, IMO.
I don't think they will be identical. I guess the Lexus will have a few extra features, better leather/wood, upgraded wheels/stereo, and perhaps longer warranty!
I want to know what might be the pricing of the 2007 ES? Is the base price going to be around 32K (plus minus couple hundred dollars) as it is for the 2006 ES 330?
I think the ES may still be for the U.S. market only. Lexus is expanding big in Europe, but few in Europe are going to want FWD from a premium brand. BMW and Mercedes stick to rear-wheel drive (and AWD to an extent) because of its superior driving dynamics, and Europeans are driving enthusiasts more so than Americans.
The only way I see the ES going global as a Lexus is if it becomes AWD.
I don't think there will be a AWD ES. And the Hybrid won't come anytime soon. Camry will get one for its I4 version. Actually starting from Feb~March next year.
They may very well be identical. Remember that Acura and Lexus (and later Infiniti) were branding plays from the Japanese manifacturer to enter the luxury/high-end of the US market when their mainstream products (Honda, Toyota) were seen as good cheap cars (who would of thought of paying $30k+ for what was seen as a glorified Corolla?). Even the US manufacturers have been using this strategy (Ford Explorer vs. Mercury Mountaineer?). There are many markets outside the US where Honda and Toyota sell Acura/Lexus models under the Honda/Toyota name - which makes sense since, if at all possible, it's cheaper to maintain one brand than two (less dealers, less TV spend, etc.)
Anybody know when the new ES350 will arrive?? the dealer told me March but that seems early. But he also said that they are steadily losing market share to both the Avalon and the TL and G35. Don't know if that's true or not, but strange for a Lexus person to offer it.
Nothing has been officially announced other than to say "Spring of 2006". March would be logical and it's what I'm hoping for.
No news there about loosing market share, it's been a steady erosion. All you need to do is look at the sales figures for the ES on a monthly basis. The same thing happened to the old Avalon, now the sales are exploding with a new design...
The current ES is "dated" by today's design standards, who'd buy it compared to the makes you mentioned?
So far we've only seen one decent digital rendering of what the car might look like. The tail lights are overly exagerated to throw you off but the shape and styling should be accurate. I would anticipate Lexus to copy the rear end styling of a BMW 5 series to some extent...
By the way, it has been reported on another forum that the new ES was shown in Canada to Lexus dealers only. The feedback is that the ES was shown along with the LF-Sh "concept" and that the ES was a pleasant surprise.
Based upon the spy shots we've all seen of the new Camry, the profile of the ES rendering matches.
We've consistently seen over time the backdoor way Toyota releases information on new models. A journalist is allowed to see the new design but can't take photos. What results are drawings that are really close but off just ever so much. We saw it with the IS and recently with the LF-SH....There were plenty of renderings floating about, none were exact but most were really close in one way or another. Look at each one and you get the overall picture.
The ES drawing came from Mag-X.
Define "bogus"? Yea it's not a photo of the actual car, it's a rendition done by someone who has seen the real deal. Close enough at this point unless you have something better.
The Hollywood Extra and Mag-X often have fake or misidentified photos. How do you even know that that rendering was really done by someone who has seen the 2007 ES?
I can't deny that about Hollywood extra, Mag-X has been more accurate.
Everything about this image clicks for me (except for the back end). We'll know for sure in a few months when they take the wraps off the ES. My gut tells me this one is very close.
Now that LF-SH is out I like to go back and compare all renderings to the real deal, almost every one of them has similar styling to the real car.
All you need to do is look at the 5 series and you'll know what they're shooting for on the ES.
The rear end of the LS is actually the worse part of the design, I expect they update that within 2 years of launch. The rest of the car is so far ahead of the S class, the rear seems to be out of tune with the overall theme. BMW was never admired because of it styling, why copy?
Comments
Afterall, it can't be overshadowed by the less expensive Avalon, Camry V6, and RAV4.
The Avalon isn't a problem, but the Camry V6 could be. An ES has to be putting out more power than a Camry so people can justify paying more for the Lexus edition
Every new Lexus has debuted using the new 6-speed. Wouldn't that also be a way to differentiate it from the Camry V-6 ?
That didn't mean that Lexus TRUCKS won't still share parts with Toyotas.
Which means a Highlander based next generation RX is very, very possible.
I'm about to buy a 2006 and would not be happy to have Lexus into a new style in 2007.
Thanks
~alpha
You could get a lease a 2006 for 3 years then at the lease end go into a 2008-2009 ES at a heavy discount and save on both cars rather than paying the premium to get a 2007 while it is the new, hot model.
Have you thought about leasing a ES330 on a 3 year lease, and then buy a 2008-2009 model at invoice? You'll be driving the latest design still for 3-4 years.
~alpha
http://img433.imageshack.us/img433/589/newescovered4pn.jpg
What's up on the Future section of Edmunds is a Camry listed as a Lexus ES.
2007 Lexus ES?
The only show they will release the ES and Camry will be Detroit show. And they are still the same car. 268Hp Avalon engine, also on Rav 4, Camry, ES, RX, and later on Sienna and highlander.
Camry I-4 Hybrid should be earlier than summer, since it should be made in Japan first and imported.
So badge kits are popular. You get the slanted L, and the ES330 badge.
They are cosmetically exact, except for the badges and the logo on the steering wheel.
So the only way to tell is to peek inside at the steering wheel, or get a glance at the license plate if they got the plates from the only Lexus dealer in Hong Kong- Crown Motor Cars. The Toyota ones will say Toyota, Crown Motors, and the Lexus ones will say Lexus, Crown Motors.
They also sell a Toyota Harrier and a Lexus RX300 (they used the old 3.0L for some reason) side by side in the same dealership, both cosmetically identical. The badge kits are also popular.
So in Japan they might keep the Windom, for all we know.
It's the ES, just not exactly as it will debut. The profile and shape is correct, the back end is not what I would expect. The wheels are probably very close to what will debut.
No matter how we look at things, Lexus is still made by Toyota.
If a person decides to wait for the price of the 2006s to drop (which I think it will), I know Toyota enough to know that selection will be very limited, particularly as it gets closer to the 2007 appearing on dealer lots. You may not be able to find the options you want if you wait for the 2006 price to drop.
But cosmetically they're IDENTICAL. From the grille to the dashboard design to the wheels.
Hence why the badge kits are highly popular. Nobody can tell the difference unless they sit behind the wheel.
Heres the Toyota Windom:
http://www.in.gr/auto/news/images/big/in_Toyota_Windom_01.jpg
I don't know why they sell them side by side.
Maybe they've discontinued it now that Lexus is becoming prominent in Hong Kong. Not sure.
But I have seen Windoms on the streets with ES300 badges and I have seen actual ES300s out there from the same generation. (the current one)
The only way I see the ES going global as a Lexus is if it becomes AWD.
Will the ES get an AWD variant?
Which is why I said "2007." And yes, the upcoming ES hybrid will come in FWD and AWD iterations.
No news there about loosing market share, it's been a steady erosion. All you need to do is look at the sales figures for the ES on a monthly basis. The same thing happened to the old Avalon, now the sales are exploding with a new design...
The current ES is "dated" by today's design standards, who'd buy it compared to the makes you mentioned?
So far we've only seen one decent digital rendering of what the car might look like. The tail lights are overly exagerated to throw you off but the shape and styling should be accurate. I would anticipate Lexus to copy the rear end styling of a BMW 5 series to some extent...
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6493/newesrear9hi.jpg
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/9282/5seriesrear9df.png
Based on what?
More likely than not the drawing is completely bogus.
We've consistently seen over time the backdoor way Toyota releases information on new models. A journalist is allowed to see the new design but can't take photos. What results are drawings that are really close but off just ever so much. We saw it with the IS and recently with the LF-SH....There were plenty of renderings floating about, none were exact but most were really close in one way or another. Look at each one and you get the overall picture.
The ES drawing came from Mag-X.
Define "bogus"? Yea it's not a photo of the actual car, it's a rendition done by someone who has seen the real deal. Close enough at this point unless you have something better.
Everything about this image clicks for me (except for the back end). We'll know for sure in a few months when they take the wraps off the ES. My gut tells me this one is very close.
Now that LF-SH is out I like to go back and compare all renderings to the real deal, almost every one of them has similar styling to the real car.
All you need to do is look at the 5 series and you'll know what they're shooting for on the ES.
5 Series
Future ES?
I expect Lexus to copy the 5 series rear. They copied the 7 series with the LF-SH....
I see it in the S-Class interior, and in the trunk lid.
If BMW made a rear-end like that, no one would call it "Bangle-ized". Apples and Oranges.
DrFill
LF-SH
7 Series
And the production LS should have chrome exhaust finishers that are visible.
Lexus has corrected another market mistake.
Nice try, though.
DrFill