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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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The nicest thing about being on the road the last month is not having to listen to my motorhead neighbor engage in his favorite hobby - mowing his yard every day. He's worse than the other neighbor with the typical Harley that won't move until you've warmed it up for 10 minutes.
That's one thing I don't miss about my Boise house - one neighbor, and not a very close one at that, what with everyone having acre lots or bigger, had one of those loud rattling diesel trucks and you could hear him coming and going all the time.
One can dream. I always liked that sound as long as it was not on my street at 1AM in the morning. I had several cars in my younger days that had that rumble sound. Mostly broken exhaust pipes.
0-60 was 9.7 seconds or about 2 seconds slower than automatic Accord/Altima/Mazda6.
I was hoping for much better mpg. Not only does the Cruze not save money over larger midsized sedans it is much slower and has an engine that has yet to be proven in the U.S.
Looks like VW stays at the top of the (non-hybrid) efficiency heap for now. Maybe BMW will give them a challenge.
Oh, come on...sheesh..
I am 1000 times more annoyed with mindless car alarms chirping and worse..
Some people feel the need to draw attention to themselves...must have never been picked up and loved as child..
Not counting a 15 year old Cummins in a Dodge, they just really are not that loud at all. Geez, it's not like they are sitting around with the hoods open and a megaphone propped up on the top of the rad..
AAMOF, With the hood OPEN and standing right there, I can't believe how quiet the following diesel vehicles were.
- 2007 Jeep GC
- 2011 VW GSW
- 2012 ML350
And a month ago, talking with a guy at a fuel agent had a 4 year old Chev Isuzu V8 (hood closed) and it simply wasn't much noisier than the gas job..
Ford's Powerstroke is noisier and just sounds bad too
These are compression ignition engines! Think about it...they don't even require ignition or spark in order to come to life and do amazing feats in things in the world requiring some form of work, no matter how massive the task. They deliver far beyond what is asked of them and yet ask for next to nothing in return. They are one of the greatest world inventions of all time...right up there with the wheel and the bicycle and CDs. They are what they are and they are here to STAY!
Give 'em a bit of a break I say when they show the odd (relatively non-intrusive) trait differently from their gasoline counterpart.
I'm sorry your wife has the asthma trigger that she has. I must believe that if she did not, you would not always have this undergrd contempt for the diesel that you seem to have, Steve. Not too many days go by without it taking one on the chin from you.
As for compulsive neigbours and their lawnmowers. I'm ok with it if they have not let their muffler rust out, but more importantly as long as they have changed the oil in it once a year so that it isn't puking out plumes of oil smoke into my yard. Or neighbours who are burning 'something' year round...always a firepit going or 45 gal barrel, and often the smell of not just leaves or wood, but weird nasty plastic smells..Or the ones who have small yappy dogs who bark incessantly. Thank goodness I am back in the bush..but I have had such neighbours..
So one of the drawbacks for that peacefulness is costs for a vehicle to go to town for essentials.
Life is full of compromises. A diesel powered vehicle should be very very VERY low on peoples complaint list when there are so many things out there that trumps it in a heart beat.
ok,,,there's my 25¢
I don't believe any of that and neither should you if you think it might fit your needs. I say go and test one yourself. Do your own FE and acceleration tests etc. I have every confidence it will blow your mind.
And I'm not even a GM fan really..
Well, they aren't benign devices by any means. And it's been months since I've posted one of those "WHO" type unhealthy particulate studies. I can't wait for the third owners of these rigs to quit using the AdBlue stuff in a few years down the road.
The other peeve is people who don't turn off the chirp mode on their key fob so when they park somewhere, the horn toots.
Oh, to be King for a day. :-)
Interesting blurb from across the pond about how gassers are "fighting back".
The death of diesel cars (managementtoday.co.uk)
edit- oh..ya I know what you meant now..well the stuff just isn't expensive and if owners did quit using it, there are probably other things that happen that affect driveability. Plus engine warning lights etc..I sorta don't think that will be much of an issue. Sure there might be the very odd idiot may do it till it damages his car altogether..and then the idiot is off the road so..good! haha
I wasn't referring to just those studies per se..I mean there are 'shots'..some fairly undertoned..others at times a little more direct..And of course you have the right, it's just that these digs don't go unnoticed by some, that's all..it's just I'd prefer if someone is going to take a shot, that it is with a bit more merit rather than using old memories type stuff.
Yes, the alarm chirps...that was what I meant..it is so idiotic. All it does is irritate many and even risks a heart shocker for any elderly person fresh out of hospital after bypass surgery..(my Mom years ago...sitting in the car and some [non-permissible content removed] with his chirp chirp with a set of trios in some big pile of so and so..she had the window down it was right there, monstering down her. I think it was a H2 come to think of it with a lift kit.) I almost had to take her right back to the hospital. That was years ago and it has only gotten worse, since.
Ya..to be KFAD..I so concur..
hey have you guys made it home yet? Ya must be getting close by now..how many miles on the Q now? What was this trips avg FE? How much of that do you think was on E10?
Yeah, I don't know what will happen when the AdBlue gets skipped. But you know it's going to happen.
We're taking off tomorrow for home and will take a week to get there. Haven't played with the mpg numbers much. The van likes the elevation and the 86 RON stuff; got ~27 on the last tank. We're at 191,500, so I guess we'll be pushing 193k in a week. The ethanol stuff is everywhere down here (maybe not all 10%, since the pumps usually say "up to") so most every tank has had it, except for the "pure gas" tank I got in TN.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Seems like the health affects would be the bigger concern.
My understanding is the engine shuts down. Unless you find a workaround. Which may cause other issues???? That was an EPA requirement to get certified. Same as running out of fuel. If you buy an Audi, BMW or VW no worries the first 3-4 years as all service is covered. Only MB charges for service.
By the way. The first Touareg TDI we test drove the salesman brought it around for us and left it running. I could not hear it until I put my ear right next to the hood. No clatter like the 2005 Passat TDI.
Does it mean we will get up to 50% diesels before we level off like the UK. I understand we sell a lot of diesel to the UK and they sell US Gas. Very poor exchange for US.
Well, they're out there already - AdBlue emulators. I should do a little net searching before posting.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=345713&page=5
/sigh
The diesel's exhaust and COLD air intake systems might be another TMI DIESEL advantage.
Much is made about the modification to the gasser's exhaust and intake systems for great hp/torque.
For diesels, they are ALREADY designed with (WAY GREATER than needed FLOW) COLD AIR systems (albeit, normally BUTT ugly) . Exhaust systems make little to no extra hp/torque (aka LQQKS, NOISE ONLY). OEM air filters are absolutely the best; as they actually DESIGNED TO keep out lower/smaller particles than most aftermarket brands and cotton/mineral oil flow systems.
So for example OEM VW diesel AIR filter systems are so "over engineered" one can easily run 2x the recommended intervals. Another TMI (counter intuitive) is a "dirtier cold air filter" actually better filters the air through the intake than so called brand new or "CLEAN" filters.
I notice your inclination is to extend the OEM's service intervals, by two to even three times.
Now sometimes a personalized determination of requirements can supersede the OEM's because they are designed to apply an across the board coverage of all potential owner scenarios, and the only real extra caveat is the Severe Service schedule. As it is, my guess is 70% of the nation's real world use probably fall easily into the SS schedule yet they wouldn't believe it if you told them so after analyzing their actual driving routine.
And of course you have probably done an oil analysis more than once? to ensure that counts are as they should be since you are expanding on their recommendations..
The air filter service extension is a little more of a grey area, IMO. Maybe you travel only the cleanest of roads at all times, but I think they use salt on those mtns you do? That's dirty dust that..and fine..
Anyway, I don't think it is the best of advice to (inadvertantly maybe?) continuously mention how often you push the envelope with your maintenance schedules. Now..that said...I know you don't specifically 'tell' someone that this is what they should do to save.. costs?.. and environment? presumedly. But I do think that many might interpret these schedule extensions incorrectly because the masses are not going to evaluate as logically as you probably do, when determining the maintenance requirements of your vehicles given the conditions under which 'you' operate them.
Yes, yes, yes!
Yes, yes, maybe to NO ! So my perception of my own driving profile is "mild." I am aware that other's may perceive my profile as "aggressive" including my BIL (owner of the Acura MDX). We have each ridden in the others' vehicle, as passenger and have taken multiple "similar trips" exact point A to point B.
Caterpillar has made the air filter service "interval" more measurable: both in diesel hours AND air flow meter. The issue here is most (RUG/PUG) folks don't even know about them, yet alone an even EXTREMELY even smaller outlier group of diesel geeks (nothing pejorative meant here) who even USE them !!!
Yes ! The issues with the intervals, oil and oil analysis is VERY TMI ! YES !
You might be correct ! However it is more of a statement on the extremely CONSERVATIVE "liberal" or extreme "robustness" of currently recommended diesel consumable products, specifically: (diesel) oil, oil and air filters.
All I am trying to do (as an "informed" consumer) is to stay in each product's useful life and "sweet" spot.
Another consideration, is 'the average owner' while they should, does NOT check their oil level often enough. This would tell them if it is going up or down. At least if they are on a regime of not doing extended intervals, the chances that high levels or low, would be caught by default.
But also, and I think this last consideration is often completely not considered at all and maybe out of nothing more than ignorance. But oil that gets old 'time-wise' but not just time-wise as above avg miles also age oil...more so as the engine itself ages and wears, holds more acids and other nasties (additives that help clean and keep seals pliable etc) and these do prematurely wear an engine seal. They can become too 'spongy' from oil and acid exposure, but also sometimes they can dry too and crack. Both can cause a leaking seal. And as I'm sure you know, some leaks can do a lot of harm before they are di$covered. Some cost a LOT more than others depending on their location....would you like to do a valve cover seal, or a rear crank seal, sorta thing?
So to me, oil and filters, even the good quality ones, just aren't that cost prohibitive yet.. when you consider the saved dollars that could otherwise be the result of extending the intervals too long. Can end up being a false economic decision...I guess that's the bottom line. And hey, who can argue that an internally and externally clean engine isn't desirable for longer life, and better overall performance during its life?
An upshot for me is I would NEVER want to be penny wise POUND foolish !!!! !!!! Of course, SOME would come to that conclusion ! However, nothing could be farther from the truth. It makes absolutely no sense to use ANY consumable/s beyond its useful design/ed life.
So for example, many (diesel) users have issues with even what the oem's mileage recommendation for a (diesel's) oil and filter change ! ( i.e., VW @ 10,000 miles)
To further TMI the discussion, some oems (i.e., VW specification 5w30, oil 504 (GASSER SPEC/ 507.00 TDI SPEC) cover both gassers (RUG/PUG) AND TDI's. So really the ROBUSTNESS is built in and in the very worst case it is up to the user to chose the intervals: going from oil change after every tank full of fuel: to the designed life.
If one has a belt and suspenders view, one can do UOA's at specific intervals say 5,000, 10,000, 15,000, 20,000, 25,000, 30,000 miles to beyond. Of course, the economics do not mirror the (exampled/ recommended ) testing procedures. A real issue is most folks who research this really do not know how to read the results, let alone apply them.
A lot of discussions really sound like wine tasting (which is entertaining in and of itself) Ah fruity with a hint of Rocky Mountain intake notes. But to be more serious, the OEMS do not post real and or objective oil analysis DATA numbers AND for obvious and not so obvious reasons. !!!!! ??????
My best guess right now (using the TLC's (4800#'s vs 4975#'s and actual VW dealer brake pad and rotor measurements) is @ 70,000 miles to 80,000 miles for the front brake pads and quite possibly rotors (they normally require rotors and pads). Worse case is rear pads and rotors also.
A few other Touareg TDI'ers report that is over kill for the rear pads and rotors, so will have to anecdotally inspect and proceed accordingly.
TLC brake pads, sans any defects will work 2 brake pad sets to one rotor ( US markets my case 120,000 miles on a set of rotors) I have used any number of brands: OEM, TRD, PBR, Ferrodo,
Yes I think this program is really part and parcel of the constant improvement VW long ago committed itself to. IF you have a almost defect free experience and whatever "defects" are seamless to you, I think it increases the chances of being a longer term happy customer. A happy customer hopefully will be inclined to buy... AGAIN.
What is normally a 210 miles trip (each way range of 2.75 to 3.25 hours, ZERO to 7382 ft, 6200 ft) became a 2 way COMMMUTE (Labor Day National holiday (4.5 hours) !
In addition, LOADS of high altitude (6200 to 7,300 and drop down to 4,800 ft high desert and return to 6,200 ft) stop and go driving and with the A/C on most of the time. (Yosemite Rim Fire haze days, 250 miles away, hazed air coming and goings)
I much prefer the saving of +1.75 hours each way to the 35 mpg + !!
Gosh it is starting to sound as capable (given its extra displacement and weight) as the GLK..so what is different now, compared to just 3 short years ago? Piezo injectors and even higher pump pressures, DEF (which I think must enhance tuning abilities in other regards)..I wonder what else?
I know it will take Gagrice a while, but the 2013 VW T TDI (2012 is my MY) has a lot of ENGINE improvements, which he has NOT commented yet on.
The objective differences are 240 hp/406 # ft FROM 225 hp/406# ft. (15 hp better)
I have heard: 1. better mpg, 2. more hp (obviously) 3. less convoluted drive chain paths 4. lighter intake components 5. less friction generated. 6. less use of battery from A/C.
These guys (all of 'em) always trying to improve a profit margin by trying on a short-cut...and let the guinea pigs (the consumer and their hard earned cash) show them what they can and can't get away with..sigh..
Why diesels?
Funny that the Italian engine maker for the new Dodge TDI sells a lot of its TDI for use in LONDON cabs ! ?
If one follows the conventional wisdom/s, a gasser/hybrid or plug in for that matter would be the ticket/s?
For whatever reason, the diesel fumes in Colorado (even in the small towns) have been bad this trip. Some of it is coal burning I think. I like to cruise towns with the windows open but had to leave the AC on mostly, and had to do the recirc trick in parts of Denver. Had a big storm the night we camped in Denver and yet the next morning there was still a brown haze over town. Sad.
I personally LOVE NYC. I actually have for easily 45+ years.(lived @ one time in NY state also). However, if you ask people in NY State what they think about NYC, it is not unlike how a lot of the middle east sees America. ! ? Indeed a lot of NYC'ers see the rest of the state as back waters HICS: the "colonies".
We are planning our October trip to Indiana. Will not get to see much of TX as we will take a route further North. Shortest is I40. Will wander off that to the back roads of America. The ones without all the gasoline pollution. We try to take a different route each time. I am thinking with the much better diesel mileage, we may continue the two times per year schedule.
As I was checking in, two black guys came tumbling down the stairs and landed right at my feet. One was with hotel security and he had found the other guy trying to break into one of the rooms, etc.
The next morning I paid over $11.00 for a bowl of oatmeal, and this was a few years ago. I haven't been back.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
In topical news, here's a good status report from the Economist:
The rebirth of the diesel engine
"A whole new generation of sprightly diesels—developed over the past few years—bear no resemblance to the clattering Oldsmobile 4.3-litre diesel of the late 1970s, which single-handedly destroyed diesel’s reputation in America for decades.
Later this year Americans will get their first chance to experience what a really advanced diesel is like—and why Europeans opt for diesels over hybrids, plug-in electrics and even petrol-powered cars."
Lowering the compression is key.
OK, I haven't released my smarta__ buildup lately, so I will do it now. The 4.3 diesel played a relatively small part in destroying diesel’s reputation in America. It was the 5.7 diesel that did the trick.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
Later this year Americans will get their first chance to experience what a really advanced diesel is like—and why Europeans opt for diesels over hybrids, plug-in electrics and even petrol-powered cars." ...
I find this quote to be almost like a dangling irrational paragraph, in the context of how LOUSY unleaded and leaded RUG/PUG cars were in this period . Incidentally, while some diesels were probably lousy and problematic during this period, the fact of the matter was LOUSY RUG/PUG cars were absolutely the overwhelming majority of the passenger vehicle fleet.
More GLARING legislative and regulatory failures include NOT mandating lower ppm sulfur for the diesel side ALSO which changed app 36 years LATER in 2006 currently @ 15 ppm (almost a biblical generation) vs 30 to 90 ppm sulfur for RUG/PUG.
Here are two more examples.
1. The 2003 VW Jetta TDI ( model years before also) was/were designed to run ULSD fuel, aka ZERO to less than 15 ppm sulfur. YET the most commonly available DIESEL fuel was LSD, aka LOW sulfur diesel, more specifically 140 ppm sulfur (CA) to 500 ppm sulfur (49 states) .
2. Legislative and regulatory agencies are also LOATHED to grant permission for up to 100% BIODIESEL engine specifications !? Biodiesel, as most folks know is ZERO ppm to a more conversational 1 ppm sulfur. In the past to currently, VW will VOID engine repair warranties, if more than 5% biodiesel is used. I am sure the other oems follow similar standard protocols.
So for example in the case of a (like for like model) 09 VW Jetta gasser 28.4 mpg (PUG @ 3.79) VS TDI 39.6 mpg (ULSD @ 3.99) (www.fueleconomy.gov) B/E is @ 30 mpg.
You took the words right outta my mouth. In fact the 4.3 was probably not nearly the disaster cuz there was less block length dimension to twist. It was the lack of block strength that was primarily behind the 5.7 woes. Although not limited to just that..
Although...even if a consumer falls prey to misguided EPA expectations (overly pessimistic) the consumer should still get the calculator out. Just cuz diesel often costs more by the gallon, it doesn't mean that it still isn't the way to more economical driving..unless you only do a few thousand miles a year of course..
It is not for everyone, but it IS better for far more consumers than they are led to believe given the fudged info as their only government resource.
Paid $5.14 for RUG today
($1.359/ litre)
The worse thing your T Reg has been through was that first long idle with the salesman. Given its complexity, sorta to be expected I guess. A necessary evil one might say.. Likely not everything would work right if it was just with the ignition 'on'. Plus if it was hot, you'd need to be in their A/C shop without the engine running.
Can't believe the number of GLKs I see..about 10:1 with the Touareg. Although I don't get out much...and I think I keep seeing the same black one and a white one.
And there must be someone on my road that has a white T. I see it often even walking down to get the mail. It's a tease for me if I am honest. Has that light tan interior I like too.. It would look a LOT better had it been in the start of my drive, headed for home 700' later, haha
Year to Date Sales
Touareg = 5638 -10%
Audi Q7 = 9386 +49%
Cayenne = 12,517 +28%
BMW X5 = 26,613 +3%
MB ML = 26,220 +6%
MB GLK = 20,896 + 23%
MB GL + 19,835 +27%
I added the smaller and larger MB to show why Mercedes has better coverage of the diesel SUV market. And they are not discounting like some of the others. The GLK being the exception. The Luxury battle is between Mercedes and BMW. With MB holding less than a 2000 vehicle lead. Glad to see the Germans maintaining their rightful lead in true luxury over the Made for gullible American Japanese Luxos.
VW is struggling this year after several double digit gain years. They do have Audi and Porsche that are both flying high. So that is good for VW corporate. The significant numbers for VW is 30.4% of August sales were diesel and 24.3% YTD. That tells me they need to get more production across their line. The Tiguan is a natural for diesel. VW does not have a diesel well suited for the vehicle. Mercedes hit the sweet spot with their much beefier 4 cylinder twin turbo diesel. I think VW is planning to bring the Tiguan with the V6 which seems to be overkill in my opinion. People will likely buy the Q5 TDI for a few dollars more. Looking at the TMV on the Audi Q5 TDI equipped comparable to my Touareg, would cost right what I paid. Now that makes no good sense to me.