Midsize Sedans 2.0

berri · November 2015

I think the 2016 Malibu is moving over to turbo engines like the Fusion eco-boost. Wonder if that will hold its sales back a bit? Newer tech in Detroit can be a bit of a gamble initially. I know its economy of scale, but I think they would have been wise to keep the conventional 2.5L 4 banger available too, at least for the first year or two.

imidazol97 · November 2015

berri said:
I think the 2016 Malibu is moving over to turbo engines like the Fusion eco-boost. Wonder if that will hold its sales back a bit? Newer tech in Detroit can be a bit of a gamble initially. I know its economy of scale, but I think they would have been wise to keep the conventional 2.5L 4 banger available too, at least for the first year or two.

But the 2.5 L is being used in the Limited 2016 Malibu currently on the dealer lots.

The new 2016 Malibu will offer the 2.0 L Turbo and a high mileage hybrid. Keeping the 2.5L also used in the Impala would be too much overlap. If you want power, 2.0 Turbo; higher mileage (48 city), hybrid; and 1.5L Turbo 27 city/37 highway for those that think an EPA rating is so accurate that 1 or 2 mpg means they will actually see a difference between two cars in typical, day-to-day driving that's noticeable and they pick their car based on 1 mpg in rating meaning a particular model is better.

benjaminh · November 2015

Nissan, like Ford and Honda, used to have dreams that they might get close to the Camry in sales with the Altima, but like Ford I think they've given that up for now. But with their significantly updated 2016 Altima their new goal is to slide past the #2 car in the midsize market in sales for the past c. 15 years or so, the Accord. Here's what Nissan vice president Pierre Loing said to Automotive News:

"Altima deliveries have climbed for five straight years, and a Nissan spokesman forecasts ’16 sales will extend that streak to six. The automaker says Altima volume could reach 350,000 units next year.Loing is confident Altima can overtake the Accord in sales...."

But Honda has also refreshed the Accord for 2016, and I don't think Honda will give up second place without a fight. Nissan does sell a lot of Altimas to rental car companies, since that seems to be one of the cars I'm most often offered when on a trip.

benjaminh · November 2015

Here's some info from the Fact Sheet put out by Nissan on its huge Smyrna, Tennessee factory, which first opened 32 years ago, and has been expanded many times since then. I think Nissan has the capacity to make up to c. 400,000 Altimas a year for the US market.

"FACT SHEET: Vehicle Assembly Plant and Battery Plant - Smyrna, Tennessee
Investment: $6 billion

Workforce: More than 8,000

Facility: 5.9 million square feet*

Property: 884 acres

Production started: June 16, 1983

Models produced:
Nissan Altima
Nissan Maxima
Nissan Pathfinder
Infiniti QX60
Nissan LEAF
Nissan Rogue

Annual Capacity: 640,000 vehicles annually

Vehicles Produced: More than 10,700,000

Community Impact: Annual payroll over $290 million"

http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/channels/Plant-Fact-Sheets/releases/vehicle-assembly-plant-smyrna-tennessee

akirby · November 2015

The new turbocharged engines have a much wider mpg range than older NA engines. If you drive them very carefully and are vigilant with coasting and getting your foot completely off the throttle you can get great mpg. But if you drive them carelessly you can get worse mileage than a larger NA engine.

I would imagine rental cars would fall into the second category.

benjaminh · November 2015

Here's a 4-minute video of some 2016 Altimas being made in TN:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aHdpAnQjMM

akirby · November 2015

Last night reminded me of one big reason I like Fords. I have a Titanium Fusion with the keyless entry. When I play tennis I throw my keys in my tennis bag and I'm able to open the doors, put the bag in the back seat and drive away. Last night after playing I had a cooler so I opened the trunk and put the cooler and my bag in the trunk. I did not unlock the vehicle - the trunk opened because the IA key was in my bag. When I closed the trunk it locked back and now all the doors and trunk were locked and the key was in the trunk. Did I call OnStar and wait 15 minutes? Did I bum a ride back home to get the spare key? Nope - I just punched in my five digit code on the keypad and unlocked all the doors and trunk in about 6 seconds. Best feature ever.

Why other mfrs have not adopted it is beyond me. I think Nissan had it for a few years. Does Ford hold a patent on it?

benjaminh · November 2015

And a much shorter 1-minute video of Honda associates in Marysville, Ohio, making the Accord:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQXfXRiDQJU

benjaminh · November 2015

And here's a much more detailed half-hour documentary from Toyota on producing the Camry in Kentucky at its huge factory there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q_GEHlEIuE

benjaminh · November 2015

And here's a tour by MotoMan of Hyundai's Alabama factory where the Sonata is made. It's more than that a review of the Sonata.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTOmg16xWZ4

robr2 · November 2015

imidazol97 said:
But the 2.5 L is being used in the Limited 2016 Malibu currently on the dealer lots.

The new 2016 Malibu will offer the 2.0 L Turbo and a high mileage hybrid. Keeping the 2.5L also used in the Impala would be too much overlap. If you want power, 2.0 Turbo; higher mileage (48 city), hybrid; and 1.5L Turbo 27 city/37 highway for those that think an EPA rating is so accurate that 1 or 2 mpg means they will actually see a difference between two cars in typical, day-to-day driving that's noticeable and they pick their car based on 1 mpg in rating meaning a particular model is better.

But the Malibu Limited isn't the new Malibu. The former is being offered only until the new one arrives at the end of 2015 and then will become fleet only.

nyccarguy · November 2015

@akirby - that keypad definitely does come in handy. My in laws (2015 Flex & 2013 Escape) both love it. They go to the beach & leave the keys in the trunk. No dropping your keys in the sand & loosing them.

The Passat TDI SEL I drove last summer had a cool feature. If you throw the keys in the trunk, then close it, the trunk will spring back open so you don't lock your keys in the trunk.

zigster38 · November 2015

I think automakers projecting all time highs for subsequent years need to be careful, economic winter could be coming in 2017. But anyway, Nissan, which is an interesting case, sells so many altimas because they discount heavily. A new 2016 Nissan Altima SR will be a sporty ride, but can they sell them without discounts? Well, maybe for two months but after that it's Rebate City. I'd be willing to say they never overtake Accord in sales. Plus they need an engine bridge before all electric cars like the leaf 2 are accepted - their 6 has done them proud for a while but it's a mpg problem and they need new engines, or buy small turbos from Mercedes.

It's hard to believe so many companies sell so many mid size sedans every year. The next economic dip will probably remove the weaker companies mid size offerings like a Mazda, even though it's a good car. Perhaps Toyota can just sell them as rebadged Toyotas.

Big West Coast car shows coming up, can't wait to check out all the new cars on my list!

benjaminh · November 2015

Even though the Mazda6 still sells in relatively small numbers, it's actually had a healthy improvement in sales over the previous models. And I think the gains will continue. Finally, some car magazines call the Mazda6 their favorite midsize sedan overall because of its sporty handling.

zigster38 · November 2015

By the way, first lease deal I have seen for 2016 Honda Civic Ex-T with CVT - 286 a month plus tax with 1300 drive out. At the moment the Accord can be had cheaper, but this wi change....

Michaell · November 2015

benjaminh said:
Even though the Mazda6 still sells in relatively small numbers, it's actually had a healthy improvement in sales over the previous models. And I think the gains will continue. Finally, some car magazines call the Mazda6 their favorite midsize sedan overall because of its sporty handling.

And, Mazda I believe is focusing more on margin that sales targets. I'd rather they make a profit on sales of 100,000 vehicles annually than lose money trying to sell 300-400K cars a year.

akirby · November 2015

nyccarguy said:
The Passat TDI SEL I drove last summer had a cool feature. If you throw the keys in the trunk, then close it, the trunk will spring back open so you don't lock your keys in the trunk.

Ford won't normally let you lock the fob in the car unless you use the keypad (which is great because it also disables the fob so even if someone is able to get into the vehicle they still can't start it without the keypad code). I think they missed a use case where the fob is in the trunk. But with the keypad it's a non-issue.

ab348 · November 2015

benjaminh said:
Even though the Mazda6 still sells in relatively small numbers, it's actually had a healthy improvement in sales over the previous models. And I think the gains will continue. Finally, some car magazines call the Mazda6 their favorite midsize sedan overall because of its sporty handling.

Unfortunately for Mazda, auto journalists don't buy many cars and have only some influence over those that do. The auto journos love Mazdas in the same way they love(d) BMWs and Porsches back in ye olde days. But they are a poor judge of what is popular among the buying public, and always have been. Mazdas don't seem to hit the buttons the mainstream buyer wants to have pushed.

ral2167 · November 2015

I don't like how the navigation units "jut out" on the dash in the mazdas. I wish they had more of a "built in" look like most cars.

Michaell · November 2015

ral2167 said:
I don't like how the navigation units "jut out" on the dash in the mazdas. I wish they had more of a "built in" look like most cars.

I test drove a CX-3 a couple weeks ago with that design feature. It didn't bother me as much as I expected it to.

The 6 is on my list of cars to test drive next year when I look for a replacement for my Elantra lease.

As is the Accord, Camry, Malibu, Optima and Sonata.

explorerx4 · November 2015

Over the next few years, the mid size sedan market will not be a growing segment, so taking a step back production wise, like the Fusion will be, may not be a bad thing.

zigster38 · November 2015

Mazda basically copies whatever Bmw does - so that means the horrible iPad look with the quite functional idrive dial.

akirby · November 2015

It's better to sell 300K vehicles from a single plant with minimal incentives than to sell 400K in 2 plants with big incentives especially if the market falls.

zigster38 · November 2015

Yes Mazda is a journalist favorite / but Car and Driver types are way out of touch with younger consumers. Anyway they gave a nice product but I was quoted a giveaway price on the Mazda six so they know the comp is fierce. It's all good when everyone is selling cars - even Volvo - until the next economic turndown then they are in trouble unless they license someone's hybrid tech.

roadburner · November 2015

ab348 said:

benjaminh said:
Even though the Mazda6 still sells in relatively small numbers, it's actually had a healthy improvement in sales over the previous models. And I think the gains will continue. Finally, some car magazines call the Mazda6 their favorite midsize sedan overall because of its sporty handling.
Mazdas don't seem to hit the buttons the mainstream buyer wants to have pushed.

Which suits me just fine, mainstream automotive buyers have execrable vehicular tastes. Kudos to Mazda for not dumbing down their cars. BMW should follow suit- instead of anesthetizing their cars so that they appeal to the idiot know-nothings who buy them as a fashion accessory.

berri · November 2015

It's better to sell 300K vehicles from a single plant with minimal incentives than to sell 400K in 2 plants with big incentives especially if the market falls.

Well, that can depend on your financial structure and position. There's profit and there's cash flow, as well as different levels of fixed cost structure and overhead absorption. Ford put a lot of effort into the Fusion and I'm sure there is a bit of disappointment in sales. That may be partially due to the all too common issue of too many Ford products being a bit tight in interior for their external dimensions. The Fusion isn't cramped, but sitting or driving in it, it doesn't seem as generous inside as some of it's competition even though its length and width is similar.

I wonder how the new Malibu will do and if it goes well, whose hide it comes out of?

Sandman6472 · November 2015

Well, I finally got to drive a '15 Fusion on Tuesday night for a good 45 minutes and walked away very impressed with the vehicle. Took a few minutes to get the infotainment system up and running with XM radio but once all was in place, was easy to change stations with the steering wheel controls. Things like this I really focus in on because in my personal vehicle, this stuff needs to be easy peasy so do not have to take my eyes off the road. The Fusion passed my test so if I ever am in need of this size vehicle, would be on the short list.
The new Accord leaves me cold, so ugly I just can't stand it! More like an Acura when they went through their ugly period. My favorites in this category are the Optima and the 6 right now with the Fusion right behind. Yes, a Fusion which really surprises me but it is that good that I would definitely own one! Great job Ford!!!

The Sandman

Sandman6472 · November 2015

Definitely not in the market right now but for some reason am fixated on the MB smallest vehicle right now as well as the BMW 1 Series. Love a car with light weight doors and the BMW 1 Series fits that bill. Have seen a few in white, best color for it I think, and blue. As much as I do love my Golf, if I found the right BMW, think I'd swap for it. I know I'm crazy here and if I did something so illogical like this I'd be getting a divorce, but I really really like it. And the smallest MB is another one I'd be happy to swap for.
Have never driven either of these vehicles but love the looks and size, especially the small 1 Series. I definitely fell in love with the BMW 3 Series last year when I had to bring one to the Ft. Lauderdale airport and back for my boss. Blew me away how well it drove which is why I suggested the Audi A3 to my wife when she was car shopping last fall. A bit high price wise than she wanted to go but it met her criteria for her new ride 100%...she ended up purchasing one in early December 2014. Once she did that, I knew that I could finally look at a German vehicle for my next ride if possible. Since I had less funds and wanted new for my first toe in the German side of the pool, went with the VW Golf and 10 days later, had one in the garage trading in a perfectly good one year old Hyundai Tucson which I've never regretted for one minute!
Have promised my middle girl that I will not have a repeat performance of last year but, and that's a big big but, if I found the perfect 1 Series hardtop in my price range with somewhat low mileage, think I might jump again though it would be the dumbest most illogical thing I have ever done in my 61 year old life.Someone please, talk me off the ledge here!!!

The Sandman

ral2167 · November 2015

Then there's the new civic that is now showing up in showrooms. Might be the best of the bunch. ..

suydam · November 2015

I drove the Mazda 3 recently and liked it very much. It might be a bit small considering I already have a small CUV. It's my favorite of the compact cars I've looked at so far.

suydam · November 2015

Took a road trip to Philadelphia yesterday. Every time we do something like this I remember why we bought the Accord. For us it's the perfect long distance driver-- roomy, quiet, handles curves, mountains, good brakes, visibility -- with such ease that we arrive feeling pretty chipper. Way more fun than flying these days. The right-side camera really comes into its own when changing lanes on the turnpike. Love the XM and had my iPod for those times when I couldn't find anything on the stations we listen to. Making me think maybe the midsize category has its virtues after all.

akirby · November 2015

berri said:
Ford put a lot of effort into the Fusion and I'm sure there is a bit of disappointment in sales.

I don't think they're disappointed at all. They're selling more high end models thus the higher ATPs (could be best in class - I know they're $4K higher than Camry and I don't think they sell as many EX-L accords but not sure). And they understand that Camcord didn't reach the top of the help in their first 9 years on the market. It's taken generation after generation and a few decades to build up enough repeat buyers to crack the 300K mark. You're not going to do that with a relatively new model no matter how good it is unless you're willing to sell it at a loss. We'll see what the 2017 refresh does - it's not a radical change but is probably enough to get current owners to upgrade. But I don't think you'll see another big jump in Fusion sales until the next generation comes out. High ATPs and a plant at 100% capacity is definitely a business success.

m6user · November 2015

Where do you get the data that the Fusion sells for $4k a pop more than Camry? Not doubting it but just wondering where to find it. Could Camry manufacturing costs be much lower thus even though the sale price is lower they are still making good money on it? Without really knowing the financials it is impossible to say. When I was recently looking at midsize sedans I found the Accord being discounted more than the Camry. Obviously this was due to year end and a revised 2016 Accord due but I really don't think the total dealer discount numbers are that different because this market is very price sensitive. The Fusion avg sale may be higher due to many factors. Maybe the base model just doesn't have the bells and whistles that some of the others so people upgrade. I really don't know as I didn't price the Fusion in detail because I just can't stand the interiors and user interfaces of Ford products. I love how they look but every time I get inside one I just don't like them.

sda · November 2015

<. It's all good when everyone is selling cars - even Volvo - until the next economic turndown then they are in trouble unless they license someone's hybrid tech.</p>

I really like Mazda and have had several in the past including an 80 626 coupe, 92 Miata, 96 and 98 Millenia. All enjoyable cars. What hurts Mazda is they don't have the outstanding reputation that Toyota, Honda and even Nissan have built. Granted all have had their issues, but it seems Mazda somewhat more with rust, fussy electrics, and engines such as the Miller cycle that they put in the Millenia S, and the the turbo in the CX5 and the last generation wankel all were fairly troublesome as they got older. Dealership network and service is a bit of a pain as well. For several years in the Charlotte area, the dealership network shrank to one. I do like their current product line and hope they have continued success.

roadburner · November 2015

In 2007 I had to go to Cincinnati to find a decent Mazda dealer, but since then one of the Louisville dealers has stepped up its game. I kept hoping that Mazda would announce the rumored 300 hp AWD Mazdaspeed3, but it looks like they aren't going to go that route. I love my 2007 MS3, but I'm ready for a change; since Mazda won't build what I want I'm looking at the current STI as well as CPO 135i M Sports- not to mention the new Mustang GT Perf. Pkg.

akirby · November 2015

It's reported by kbb and edmunds but I think it was in a Ford sales report a few months ago. I can't find a current link. Ford sells a lot of loaded Titaniums plus Fusion is available with AWD and as a PIH which will drive up the ATP. So $4K isn't hard to believe.

robr2 · November 2015

I've read similar things as well regarding the ATP of the Fusion being higher than the Camry. Both cars cost the manufacturers similar amounts to manufacture so the profits are similar.

berri · November 2015

You sure don't see many Fusions in the rental fleets these days. Last time I rented one was several years ago. So that's probably a good sign fore the vehicle's margins.

akirby · November 2015

If 2 cars cost the same but one sells for $4K more that's not the same profit.

berri · November 2015

Depends on the cost structure I suppose. I learned years ago to be skeptical of absolutes. Detroit tends to be handicapped by overhead and the UAW. I suspect you are correct on the Fusion because it is made in Mexico. But to truly compare margins you have to look at all costs over volume.

robr2 · November 2015

akirby said:
If 2 cars cost the same but one sells for $4K more that's not the same profit.

I didn't articulate that well. The profits are the similar at the MSRP price. I'm guessing Ford is selling better equipped vehicles at higher prices than Toyota.

benjaminh · November 2015

But my guess is that Ford probably pays their Mexican workers less than $10 hour, including benefits, while Toyota's employees in Kentucky seemingly make an average of over $40 an hour, according to the story below. The combination of higher transaction prices and lower labor costs probably means that Ford is making a decent profit on the Fusion.

http://www.kentucky.com/2013/04/17/2604460/toyota-might-hire-750-as-part.html

"...average of $44.12 in compensation paid to existing employees, many of whom have been with the plant since its opening in the 1980s."

Mr_Shiftright · November 2015

I think it's lower than $10...ranges I think from $4 to $8, depending. I recall that GM was paying, in 2010, $26.40 a day, benefits included. I suspect it's a bit more now.

benjaminh · November 2015

from Cars.com and Forbes:

"JUN 29, 2015 @ 10:40 AM 29,510 VIEWS
What's More American Than A Ford F-150 Pickup? Try A Toyota Camry
Joann Muller
FORBES STAFF

Full-size pickup trucks are a uniquely American phenomenon, a symbol of Uncle Sam’s bravado and brawn. And the Ford F-150 is the biggest U.S. flag-bearer of all. Manufactured in Michigan and Missouri, it’s been the best-selling vehicle in America for more than three decades.

But if you want to buy a truly “American-made” vehicle — and a Cars.com survey says more Americans do — you might be better off purchasing a Toyota Camry. It turns out the Japanese carmaker’s flagship sedan actually has more domestic content in it than the F0rd pickup and in fact, ranks first in Cars.com’s annual American-Made Index....."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2015/06/29/whats-more-american-than-a-ford-f-150-pickup-try-a-toyota-camry/

berri · November 2015

You are destroying the UAW argument to buy American to save jobs in America

Mr_Shiftright · November 2015

I don't think the UAW argues that *buying* American is the issue, but rather buying *made in America* is the issue.

stickguy · November 2015

outside of FS pickups, the midsize sedan class is still most makers bread and butter. Big sales, and loyal buyers. Plus the "gateway" to all the nice hi margin SUV stuff.

also a great all around package, though IMO most of them have grown a bit too large. But, you get tons of room, comfort, and MPG that rivals a compact, with much greater range (thanks to the much larger gas tanks. My Sonata has 18.5, an Elantra about 12.5, and there is not that much difference in highway MPG).

plus, the class is so competitive, can usually get a screaming good deal on something!

roadburner · November 2015

Mr_Shiftright said:
I don't think the UAW argues that *buying* American is the issue, but rather buying *made in America* is the issue.

The UAW's primary issue is buying "made in America in UAW plants."

berri · November 2015

So the UAW looks the other way when people buy Mexican Fusions, but complain when they buy Ohio Honda's and Kentucky Toyota's

roadburner · November 2015

berri said:
So the UAW looks the other way when people buy Mexican Fusions, but complain when they buy Ohio Honda's and Kentucky Toyota's

Pretty much...

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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