A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

0patience

roadburner said:

Cracked/deteriorated friction material, foreign object(s) in friction material...

Agreed.
Or the adhesive is separating from heat. Time for ceramics.

thecardoc3

I would expect the OE pads to be ceramics. 

isellhondas

When a person drives the crap out of a car on the track they have to expect this!

roadburner

I've only had two track related brake issues:
1. I cracked a rear rotor on my 1988 M6- it was in the "hat" area of the rotor and had not spread to the friction surface.
2. I wasn't able to take a cool-down lap in my Club Sport and wound up with a hot spot on one front rotor; a few minutes on a brake lathe took care of the issue.

Contrast that with my 1985 T Bird Turbo Coupe; one hard stop from 80 mph and the brakes were gone...

xwesx

roadburner said:

I've only had two track related brake issues:
1. I cracked a rear rotor on my 1988 M6- it was in the "hat" area of the rotor and had not spread to the friction surface.
2. I wasn't able to take a cool-down lap in my Club Sport and wound up with a hot spot on one front rotor; a few minutes on a brake lathe took care of the issue.

Contrast that with my 1985 T Bird Turbo Coupe; one hard stop from 80 mph and the brakes were gone...

I don't know if I mentioned this yet, but I drove a 2007 Chevy 1500 a couple weeks ago that had the worst warped rotors I've ever experienced. I felt like the truck was going to come apart on me, even if I braked lightly! $155 and a few hours later, and it was smooth as butter again. It was nothing a couple new rotors and set of pads couldn't fix.

andres3

isellhondas said:

When a person drives the crap out of a car on the track they have to expect this!

I do consider brake pads a wear item, as are rotors. Lots of debate on whether rotors can go 2 sets of pads given that some OEM rotors are pretty thin to save weight (and for the extra consideration of safety and reliability with occasional track use).

I absolutely saw that my front pads were worn out prior to my last 20-25 minute session of the entire weekend, but being the Cowboy I am I went out on the track anyway and was promptly rewarded with the reported metal grinding noise on the trip home. Had I stopped before that last session I probably could have prevented some of the abusive wear that occurred.

We have concluded Audi designs their OEM brake pads for ski hill climbs on commercials in the snow and ice, and not for hot Southern CA weather or spirited use. One can't be that good at both.

The more properly designed for track use rear pads (EBC Yellow Stuff) appear to be holding up quite well.

albert72

thecardoc3 said:

And Cont:


But officials of Automobile Mechanics Local 701, the union that represents the striking service techs, concede they didn't get everything they wanted.

Cicinelli: "Not as good" for techs
Sam Cicinelli, the local's directing business representative, says the contract will guarantee technicians as much as 36 paid weekly hours of work, up from 34 — but the union wanted 40.
Cicinelli says most veteran technicians represented by the local work as much as 50 hours a week. But they often earn less because of the flat-rate system they work under, which pays experienced techs primarily by the repair job rather than the hour.
Contract provisions lengthening the guaranteed workweek and offering other incentives only partially relieve that disparity, Cicinelli says.
Technician Costley calls flat-rate pay "a prehistoric, barbaric way of paying. They should be paying at an hourly base," he says.
Pay gap
Richards, the youngest tech in his shop, says Chicago-area dealers have exploited poorly paid techs in the semiskilled category, which he argues should be eliminated.
"Would you rather pay the semiskilled worker $15 an hour or pay the journeyman $35 an hour for that brake flush?" Richards says.
He notes that the new contract reduces apprenticeships from 10 to five years. But service departments need to pay more attention to the quality of apprentice training, he says.
Apprentices should be formally partnered with journeymen, he suggests, "instead of being thrown into the industry as an apprentice and learning to do everything yourself."
Otherwise, the union's Cicinelli says, the contract makes gains for younger techs, "but it's still not as good compared to other trades and other jobs."
"Electricians make $18 to $20 an hour at the entry level," he says. "A plumber has a little bucket of wrenches to invest in, and we have a toolbox the size of a condominium."
Harold Santamaria, an instructor in the automotive technology program at Truman College in Chicago, says many of his tech students who "graduated and got a job said it wasn't as rewarding as they thought it could be."
Some talented students have worked as lube techs for four years without the prospect of advancement "because they did the job too well," he says.
Dealers speak
The Chicago dealers whose techs went on strike have complaints of their own. Greg Webb, a partner at Packey Webb Ford in Downers Grove, says the strike "cost the mechanics and us a lot of money, and neither of us is getting it back."
"The dealerships that weren't on strike had so much [service] business, they were turning it away," Webb says. "If some of my customers went to another Ford store and got taken care of properly, there's a real possibility they may not come back here."
Richard Fisher's seven dealerships in the Autobarn group endured the strike. He says the cost of the new contract will make it even harder for his company to stay competitive.
"The [pay] rates of all of our mechanics have gone up sharply," Fisher says. "Inevitably, the things we care about — giving great service to our customers and attracting young people to the business — will be stymied if our costs continue to climb."
Fisher and some other dealers worked to dissociate themselves from the dealership bargaining committee and cut their own deals with their striking techs. "We felt they were our guys first and union guys second, and we wanted to get them back to work," he says. "I felt bitter in the overall way [the strike] was managed by both sides. I feel, ultimately, the strike was unnecessary."
Even after the strike, industry observers say dealerships in Chicago and elsewhere aren't properly preparing their service departments and training their shop employees for innovations such as emerging electric and autonomous vehicles.
Steve Tomory, who teaches automotive technology at Rio Hondo College in Whittier, Calif., predicts service technician training will need to become based more heavily on STEM (science, technology, engineering, math) topics. A tech's job, he says, "may become more of a salary-based position."
In Chicago and everywhere else, says Thompson of Pittsburg State, the primary responsibility for redefining the role of service technicians to accommodate a changing industry rests with dealers and automakers.
"The manufacturers will have to partner up with the dealers and say, 'How do we grow this work force?'" Thompson says.
Rob Gehring, a fixed operations consultant in Huron, Ohio, agrees.
"I have said technician is a good career many times," Gehring says. "But the attitude needs to change at the dealership and manufacturer level."
He adds: "I wouldn't be a technician."

This entire thread is interesting. As a lay person who reads their owners manual to know what fluids should be used, and how much can be cut from a rotor before it needs to be replaced, the information about tech pay is an eye opener.

Is it a fair statement that most dealers don't pay their techs well and if so, do the dealers even care about the cost of employee turnover, quality of work / customer experience or is that all a thing of the past?

My dealer wants $1300 + tax & shop fees for new rotors and pads all around. I can buy OEM pads & rotors for under $500. So is the tech going to get like $50 and the owner the other $750? If I knew for fact he was exploiting his techs, I would never step foot in his service department again but then my problem is, how do I find a repair shop with skilled techs who will charge a fair price, but not gouge me? I know it takes years of experience to become a seasoned tech and Snap On tools are a fortune. Give me a basic & clean repair shop where employees are paid fairly, owner makes a reasonable profit and I'm happy to send all my vehicles there but the problem is I don't know how to validate that such a place good or not.

Mr_Shiftright

That's a really good question. I mean, I KNOW where the "happy shops" are, but I'm not sure I could convey to you how YOU would know it, just walking in there.

I'm thinking specifically of 3 independent shops in my area (which, by the way, have some of the most expensive labor rates in the country) and one small-ish dealership. Some of their characteristics seem to be:

1. The owner is on the floor. He's not in his fortress somewhere
2. The mechanics are inter-acting and helping each other
3. There is an amiable and helpful "front man" to handle you when you come in
4. The employees, generally, have all been there a long time
5. The place is clean, even if not luxurious in any sense.
6. If they are selling used cars, they are all in very good condition
7. Your repair bill is explained to you and is clear and detailed.
8. They've been in business for a long time.

None of these places is "cheap" or a "bargain", but in a sense they are, because your car gets fixed correctly the first time, and, in the rare instance where it isn't, the shop stands behind its work.

roadburner

Mr_Shiftright said:

That's a really good question. I mean, I KNOW where the "happy shops" are, but I'm not sure I could convey to you how YOU would know it, just walking in there.

I'm thinking specifically of 3 independent shops in my area (which, by the way, have some of the most expensive labor rates in the country) and one small-ish dealership. Some of their characteristics seem to be:

1. The owner is on the floor. He's not in his fortress somewhere
2. The mechanics are inter-acting and helping each other
3. There is an amiable and helpful "front man" to handle you when you come in
4. The employees, generally, have all been there a long time
5. The place is clean, even if not luxurious in any sense.
6. If they are selling used cars, they are all in very good condition
7. Your repair bill is explained to you and is clear and detailed.
8. They've been in business for a long time.

None of these places is "cheap" or a "bargain", but in a sense they are, because your car gets fixed correctly the first time, and, in the rare instance where it isn't, the shop stands behind its work.

Agreed; so many people know the price of everything but the value of nothing...

isellhondas

Mr_Shiftright said:

That's a really good question. I mean, I KNOW where the "happy shops" are, but I'm not sure I could convey to you how YOU would know it, just walking in there.

I'm thinking specifically of 3 independent shops in my area (which, by the way, have some of the most expensive labor rates in the country) and one small-ish dealership. Some of their characteristics seem to be:

1. The owner is on the floor. He's not in his fortress somewhere
2. The mechanics are inter-acting and helping each other
3. There is an amiable and helpful "front man" to handle you when you come in
4. The employees, generally, have all been there a long time
5. The place is clean, even if not luxurious in any sense.
6. If they are selling used cars, they are all in very good condition
7. Your repair bill is explained to you and is clear and detailed.
8. They've been in business for a long time.

None of these places is "cheap" or a "bargain", but in a sense they are, because your car gets fixed correctly the first time, and, in the rare instance where it isn't, the shop stands behind its work.

I agree with all of that. After almost 20 years in the mobile tool business I can honestly say that I have been in, literally thousands of shops and have interacted with even more techs and shop owners. There are, indeed, "happy shops" as well as shops where the techs and management consider themselves as being against one another. Politics can come into play big time too. Union shops are now pretty much a thing of the past but those shops were REALLY bad as there was constant friction between the management the employees and the unions. I could tell what category the shops fell into soon after walking through the door.

thecardoc3

albert72 said:

This entire thread is interesting. As a lay person who reads their owners manual to know what fluids should be used, and how much can be cut from a rotor before it needs to be replaced, the information about tech pay is an eye opener.

Sometimes I like to refer back to articles that started off with a line like "Ten things your mechanic doesn't want you to know". The reality was that there was a much darker list of things that the person writing the article wanted to hide or really had no idea about which included how the dealers themselves wanted consumers to have a degree of disdain for the techs. Those articles served a purpose which was to help discourage talented people from making a career out of being a technician. Didn't it ever seem odd that the dealers never took the writers of those articles on directly? To the dealers the techs were always a dime a dozen and at best a necessary evil. They never wanted people working for them that could make cars last. They made their money selling cars and they couldn't do that if someone made keeping the existing car a viable choice.

albert72 said:

Is it a fair statement that most dealers don't pay their techs well and if so, do the dealers even care about the cost of employee turnover, quality of work / customer experience or is that all a thing of the past?

It's more than a fair statement to say it that way and what needed to be told is that they have had a lot of help for a very long time to try and keep it that way.

albert72 said:

My dealer wants $1300 + tax & shop fees for new rotors and pads all around. I can buy OEM pads & rotors for under $500. So is the tech going to get like $50 and the owner the other $750? If I knew for fact he was exploiting his techs, I would never step foot in his service department again but then my problem is, how do I find a repair shop with skilled techs who will charge a fair price, but not gouge me?

Staying within the limits of your question, the techs get paid better to do easy stuff than they do warranty or more complicated work, so maybe they make $100 instead of $50. That's how the stage gets set for the overselling when it occurs that amounts to gouging. Consider that by price alone with regular work that is needed one cannot judge what a "fair price" really is unless you sit down and work out all of the costs that a business has to account for to be able to provide service. You do then still have to allow for profit once all of the costs are accounted for. There is so much more to this facet that needs to be discussed another time.

albert72 said:

I know it takes years of experience to become a seasoned tech and Snap On tools are a fortune. Give me a basic & clean repair shop where employees are paid fairly, owner makes a reasonable profit and I'm happy to send all my vehicles there but the problem is I don't know how to validate that such a place good or not.

It takes twenty years for a hard working, dedicated, and talented individual to become the master technician that you need a shop to have today. Further, everyone needs to understand that there is no finish line to the need for that technician to continually study and get further education and training to maintain that status as a master technician once they achieve it. But yet, there is little to no reason for anyone to start the journey let alone walk it for their entire life. This has been one of the greatest secrets that no-one ever got to tell, well that is until guys like me started pushing back in forums like this one.

0patience

albert72 said:

This entire thread is interesting. As a lay person who reads their owners manual to know what fluids should be used, and how much can be cut from a rotor before it needs to be replaced, the information about tech pay is an eye opener.

Is it a fair statement that most dealers don't pay their techs well and if so, do the dealers even care about the cost of employee turnover, quality of work / customer experience or is that all a thing of the past?

My dealer wants $1300 + tax & shop fees for new rotors and pads all around. I can buy OEM pads & rotors for under $500. So is the tech going to get like $50 and the owner the other $750? If I knew for fact he was exploiting his techs, I would never step foot in his service department again but then my problem is, how do I find a repair shop with skilled techs who will charge a fair price, but not gouge me? I know it takes years of experience to become a seasoned tech and Snap On tools are a fortune. Give me a basic & clean repair shop where employees are paid fairly, owner makes a reasonable profit and I'm happy to send all my vehicles there but the problem is I don't know how to validate that such a place good or not.

Let's look at this from a different perspective.
Yes, a DIY'er can buy the parts and do it themselves for less. But............
If you go to a reputable shop, they will do the job properly and do things to assure you won't be back into it later.
Like, properly flush the brake system, install the brake pads, calipers, etc without damaging the ABS system, make sure the wheel bearings are in good shape and properly install the brake "glides' with the correct grease.

Most DIYers don't have a brake bleeder, so more often than not, they don't flush the brake fluid.
The mentality is why should they? The answer, quite simply is moisture.
But that's another long drawn out discussion.

As for pay, as thecardoc3 eluded to, no they don't get paid well and the last few years, that problem has come to light in a large sense.

What can you, the consumer do?
Ask questions.
How much training do they provide their techs?
How long have their techs been there?

I would think that reputable shops will have no problem answering those questions. In fact, the reputable shops I deal with are proud of the training their techs receive and the fact that their techs have been with them for years.

0patience

And since this subject was brought up.
Let's talk about the articles that these supposed authors write that are usually titled "What your mechanic doesn't want you to know."

Any of you who have ever talked to your mechanic, ask them how much input they have in what it costs to repair your vehicle or parts costs. In most cases, none.
But let's blame the mechanic.

Who do you talk to when you drop off your car? The mechanic? Not usually. Usually it is a service writer.
The mechanic tells the service writer their recommendations, who then tells the customer.
Care to guess how often what the tech tells the service writer, gets changed when it gets to the customer?
In my experience fairly often.

So, who doesn't want you to know? The mechanic? Or more accurately, the shop.
And even at that, the good shops far outweigh the bad ones.

These people who write this drivel are people I like to refer to as leeches. They prey on the fact that people don't trust repair shops. They use that distrust to make them money.
If you really think they are doing it out of the goodness of their heart and "want to come clean", then why aren't they giving away their books?

One of the favorite lines they love to use is that your mechanic doesn't want you to know how much parts actually cost. Of course they don't. They are selling you the parts.
It's like asking how much Walmart pays for a product they are selling you.
Shops buy parts at their discount and a portion of the money to keep them in business is made off of parts.

guitarzan

My friend has a Ford that just burned to the ground. Ford is just now hustling to begin repairing the flaw in these vehicles before they start on fire. When I see this happen, due to Cardoc's influence, the first thing I think of is, "Those Ford mechanics are never going to get paid appropriately for that procedure."

guitarzan

albert72 said:

Give me a basic & clean repair shop...

I do not think that the cleanliness of a shop is any sort of indicator of performance other than the metric of cleanliness itself. Feel free to convince me guys with regards to a service shop. Granted a mechanic must find their tools efficiently. But aside from that, if they are overloaded with clientele who cannot wait to get their cars in, the place might look like a rats nest as there is no time until close to actually clean up. Thus cleanliness can actually mean that mechanics have too much time for cleaning.

In my experience in the office, even though there is always overlap, there are top performers who are extremely messy and poor performers who have spotless work areas. If I see that someone has a perfectly organized and spotless work area, not knowing them yet, I begin with a mistrust of their knowledge and performance. I did not begin with this generalization but generated it after observing quite a few examples that fit the model.

isellhondas

There is a big difference between "spotless" and clean. I've found that shows that are filthy with cars parked all over usually don't do the best work. Cleanliness boils down to efficiency and it's hard to be efficient when the techs have to crawl over old auto parts and garbage.

I don't need or want the shops that do my work to be hospital clean but I do want them organized and fairly clean. When I gt my car back I don't want to find a greasy steering wheel or soiled carpets.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, there is a definite difference between some "disorder" on the one hand, and grease, filth, bad lighting and chaos on the other. If you have to powerwash your shoes when you get home, chances are that shop isn't very good.

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

Yeah, there is a definite difference between some "disorder" on the one hand, and grease, filth, bad lighting and chaos on the other.

I'll never forget the constant push to turn more, and more hours while the labor times kept getting cut back further and further. There were times that in order to increase my efficiency, I litterally ran between the cars that I would be involved with, the parts department, service desk and my tool box. I didn't even stop for lunch, I either ate while I worked or skipped it entirely. That effort might have me turning one or two "extra" hours a day if I didn't stop to do any housekeeping. Any time that I spent cleaning the shop was unpaid time.

Mr_Shiftright said:

If you have to powerwash your shoes when you get home, chances are that shop isn't very good.

That is akin to judging the book by the cover. I didn't have the dirtiest shop when I was running full time, but I definately didn't have the cleanest one either. Anyone using that as a measure of my abilities was never going to know just how good at diagnosing and repairing cars I really was.

thecardoc3

guitarzan said:

My friend has a Ford that just burned to the ground. Ford is just now hustling to begin repairing the flaw in these vehicles before they start on fire. When I see this happen, due to Cardoc's influence, the first thing I think of is, "Those Ford mechanics are never going to get paid appropriately for that procedure."

Thanks @guitarzan Now if I could just get about 250,000,000 other people to think that way........

kyfdx

thecardoc3 said:

guitarzan said:

My friend has a Ford that just burned to the ground. Ford is just now hustling to begin repairing the flaw in these vehicles before they start on fire. When I see this happen, due to Cardoc's influence, the first thing I think of is, "Those Ford mechanics are never going to get paid appropriately for that procedure."

Thanks @guitarzan Now if I could just get about 250,000,000 other people to think that way........

That's your goal? You need a hobby!

roadburner

I lucked out this week, I drove the Jeep on some errands and began to notice a noise under the hood. I suspected the idler pulley bearing, so I dropped by my local indie shop. They verified the source of the noise and had a new one installed in under an hour. While I was there I told the owner I had ordered a Schwaben(Foxwell) scan tool for my BMWs and Mini and said to call me if they need a battery registered or a module coded. They don't work on many BMWs or Minis so I get the occasional call from them to verify a part number or description. Nice shop with a great staff.

Mr_Shiftright

And I bet the floor is clean, too.

No, it's true, you cannot always judge a book by its cover, but I'm not reading a book that I spent $20 on--I'm preparing to spend a lot of money at a shop that I know nothing about. How else am I supposed to judge, other than the working conditions and the attitude of the technician I first talk to? Sure, there's Yelp, if you can sift through the shill reviews. But if the guy's toolbox looks like a dumpster, I get the feeling that that's what my car is going to end up looking like as well.

The best recommendation is word of mouth IMO.

thecardoc3

kyfdx said:

thecardoc3 said:

Thanks @guitarzan Now if I could just get about 250,000,000 other people to think that way........

That's your goal? You need a hobby!

Hobby? Actually I have one, astronomy.

Mr_Shiftright

Ah, THAT'S where he gets all those big numbers from!

thecardoc3

It was just a matter if time before techs started discussing issues with the robotics in today's cars.

Here is an excerpt from a post written by JamesA. in the iATN.

The owner said
that her vehicle was possessed and was trying to kill her.
We asked her what is was doing and she said to just go on
the highway and set the cruise control and hold on.

I went on the highway into the fast lane and set the cruise
at 75. I started to catch up with the vehicle in front of me
and the adaptive cruise did not slow down. When I got about
10 feet behind the car and was still approaching, I was
ready to brake when the vehicle slammed on the brakes and
lit the collision warning in the dash. Then the brakes
released and the cruise started accelerating back to speed
when the brakes slammed on again. After about 3 cycles of
this, I cancelled cruise and went back to the shop and
changed my shorts.

Scanning the control module systems, no code was set in any
module.

No codes... The rest of the post outlined the diagnostic and repair of the issue which this time was relatively easy, that is for a tech that has extensive training and great diagnostic skills.

Mr_Shiftright

Did it end up being a "repair" or just a big whoppin' R&R once the problem was found?

thecardoc3

A repair.

andres3

I've noticed scuffing/scratches on my soft leather steering wheels in my last few Audi's. On my latest, I'm suspicious this is from a careless tech at the shop.

When a brake job including fluid exchange is done would a tech use some device to depress the brake pedal, and what does that look like? Would it ever be mounted against the steering wheel?

It's probably me being careless with my work bag or keys, but just checking.

0patience

andres3 said:

I've noticed scuffing/scratches on my soft leather steering wheels in my last few Audi's. On my latest, I'm suspicious this is from a careless tech at the shop.

When a brake job including fluid exchange is done would a tech use some device to depress the brake pedal, and what does that look like? Would it ever be mounted against the steering wheel?

It's probably me being careless with my work bag or keys, but just checking.

I don't know about other shops, but I use a pressure bleeder. So the only time I would touch the brake pedal is at the end to pump the caliper piston out and that I do manually to prevent the pedal from going all the way to the floor. I don't like the pedal to hit the floor, because in "the old days", you could wipe a seal doing that.
Pretty sure if the work is done at a dealer, they would be using a pressure bleeder.

Mr_Shiftright

So what do we think of this disturbing news?

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2018/02/05/watchdog-warns-of-corner-cutting-as-wyotech-shuts-down/?refer=news

andres3

I've noticed auto enthusiasts can be highly loyal to their preferred shop. And why shouldn't they be? Once you find someone both competent and honest in the industry, it's a good idea to stick to them.

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

So what do we think of this disturbing news?

In a word, "Expected".

Not enough of the right students are seeking a career as a technicians while too many of the ones who lack the academic skills that are required to absorb and apply the information are filling the majority of the seats that are sold. Combine that with the fact that a two year program is barely enough to create an apprentice let alone a qualified technician and you can expect to see more and more of this as time goes on.

Before I came here and started pushing back little to nothing was ever done to support the people who were trying to make a career out of being technicians. In fact it was far more likely to see anything but support for people in the trade which was typical of virtually everywhere when anyone brought up the subject of auto repair.

FWIW, you haven't seen anything yet. It IS going to get to be a lot worse before it starts getting better. Increased job opportunities competing for the people who would be great prospective technicians will not only prevent seats from being filled in the first place, entry level techs (less than ten years in the trade) are unlikely to remain career technicians. Expect to see exit numbers exceeding 80% of the junior workforce.

Mr_Shiftright

Why would a Tech School fail? Not enough students? Or too many dropouts? I wonder....

kyfdx

Corruption and self-dealing by administrators?

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

Why would a Tech School fail? Not enough students? Or too many dropouts? I wonder....

kyfdx said:

Corruption and self-dealing by administrators?

All the above and more.....Extend those very attributes to dealership management and hollow promises of 100K incomes. (The NADA number it was recently pointed out is $60K) The same conversation that included that nugget had a fixed ops director proud that two of the forty-two technicians under her direction are helping their kids get into the trade. That's a whopping 5% of her techs that allegedly find the career worthwhile.

Mr_Shiftright

But is this any worse than plumber, electrician, baker, parole officer, etc? I'm sure lots of careers have drop outs.

thecardoc3

Those careers can be learned in a tiny fraction of the time that it takes to master being an automotive technician. Those careers don't require the investment in the tools that the automotive technician has to make.
The businesses mentioned don't need the capitol investment that a prospective shop owner is faced with and that's before you consider zoning issues.

The training that today's automotive master technician needs just to keep up with annual changes is more than the complete educations of all of those careers combined.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh I don't know about THAT. An electrician needs a shop, a truck or trucks, lots of inventory, and a skill level good enough to keep him from injuring himself or others--it's analogous to automotive skills, I think. And a plumber's life can be as hard.

qbrozen

I think his point is that the technology of electricity isn't exactly changing or getting more complicated every year. 

fushigi

Actually, it is. With LED lighting you have new form-factors & connectors with differing light, energy, and heat values. More High/Low voltage systems are coming into play in residential and commercial wiring. Home automation/"smart home" adds a lot of potential complexity. Home EV chargers require different circuits than some houses had previously (or at least additional high-voltage circuits to the garage). There's also integration with "clean" energy solutions like wind & solar.

Mr_Shiftright

That might have been true a while ago but we're seeing "smart tech" in the home now, as well as EV charging systems and rather sophisticated HVAC systems that certainly require serious diagnostic abilities.

On the other hand, being an electrician isn't nearly as interesting as being an automotive tech.

Point is, using your physical body to earn a living has an end point that probably far sooner than a desk job.

qbrozen

The number of changes in electrical work is still miniscule compared to autos, not to mention moving at a relative snail's pace. Besides, most LED and smart home stuff is plug and play and involves little to no additional knowledge. 

Mr_Shiftright

Don't you have to wire in smart thermostats and remote door locks--that sort of thing? And security cameras? I suppose that's more like IT stuff.

In any event, the auto industry is going to have to change to do the same thing as you mentioned---plug n' play and other automated diagnostics. The technology is happening faster than the ability for one person to comprehend all of it.

Perhaps techs will be trained in very narrow specialties, communicating in real time with vast networks of factory technicians in the home offices.

qbrozen

Yes, but the wiring is no different than standard stuff. My Nest thermostats run off the wites that were there for the old thermostat, and my security cameras just plug into a standard outlet.

Mr_Shiftright

It's still a trade requiring skill and training, nonetheless, and licensing. So there are standards here that are perhaps higher than for automotive technicians.

You could have zero experience and open up an auto repair shop, and you don't need a state license. Perhaps that contributes to the lack of prestige in the industry.

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

Oh I don't know about THAT.

You should after some of the samples that I have shared over the last few years. There is nothing that the electrician has that we don't also have. LED lighting, got that. 650v 3phase AC, yeah, we got that too. 240V AV, 120v AC, GFI, we have all of that and more, much more. Does the electrician need to work with radar and sonar? We do. Video cameras, projection devices, and the robotics for the lane departure systems and crash mitigation/prevention systems? 2000 psi gasoline injection systems? 30,000 psi diesel injection systems? Does the electrician need to test commnication systems between multiple computers? Heck I could go on and on and they have to do some of these things but clearly not all of them and they don't have to deal with dozens of variations inside of each system, but we do. Just wait until the laser headlights hit the market where a single laser is beamed out of each headlight assembly and is swept side to side and down range to illuminate each portion of the road that needs to be visible to the driver some 200 to 400 times a second.

Mr_Shiftright said:

An electrician needs a shop, a truck or trucks, lots of inventory, and a skill level good enough to keep him from injuring himself or others--it's analogous to automotive skills, I think. And a plumber's life can be as hard.

Ten years ago the cost to capitolize a new shop was estimated to be in the $500,000 range. That's without a tow truck and having technicians that brought in ther own tools. That number is easily approaching $750,000 today and there aren't enough technicians to go around.

0patience

Wyotech closing is just the tip of the iceberg in the mechanic industry.

We've had positions that have taken 6 months to a year to fill. Automotive and heavy duty both.
Mostly because good, qualified techs are at a premium right now.
Most techs who are skilled and good at what they do, can go anywhere.
A good shop is cherry picking the quality techs.

And the other problem is, that young people are not going into this industry.
The investment vs return is not feasible to them.
With places like Wyotech going under, it really is a good indication of this industry.
It is failing and unless schools (and I mean high schools) start getting back to vocational classes, then you will see industries, like mechanics, plumbers, electricians and other skilled labor start to become an endangered species.

isellhondas

One of the big reasons young people aren't going into this trade is because the older techs are talking them
out of it! I know a guy who recently retired after sticking it out as a line mechanic in a Ford Store. He was in his mid sixties and he does NOT have a comfortable retirement. People don't realize the toll it takes on their bodies and as a result it's pretty rare to see many guys in their 50's.

In addition the constant investment in tools seriously takes a big chunk out of what these guys make.

It's not an easy life and I don't see young guys beating down the doors at the Vo-Tech schools.

So, i don't know...I think there will always be quality shops staffed with quality techs but if anyone thinks this is a quick and easy way to make big bucks they should try it for awhile!

0patience

Mr_Shiftright said:

Oh I don't know about THAT. An electrician needs a shop, a truck or trucks, lots of inventory, and a skill level good enough to keep him from injuring himself or others--it's analogous to automotive skills, I think. And a plumber's life can be as hard.

In most of the other industries, electricians, plumbers, etc., the companies supply most of the tooling, with exception of the standard hand tools.
While mechanics have historically supplied their own tools.

My little brother is a plumber.
His tool investment equates to less than $1,000 of his personal tools.
Specialty tools are supplied for him.
While I have $50-60k of my own tools on my service truck. Most specialty tools, with few exceptions are paid for by me.
The work is comparable, but the investment is not.

Michaell

0patience said:

Wyotech closing is just the tip of the iceberg in the mechanic industry.

We've had positions that have taken 6 months to a year to fill. Automotive and heavy duty both.
Mostly because good, qualified techs are at a premium right now.
Most techs who are skilled and good at what they do, can go anywhere.
A good shop is cherry picking the quality techs.

And the other problem is, that young people are not going into this industry.
The investment vs return is not feasible to them.
With places like Wyotech going under, it really is a good indication of this industry.
It is failing and unless schools (and I mean high schools) start getting back to vocational classes, then you will see industries, like mechanics, plumbers, electricians and other skilled labor start to become an endangered species.

If labor becomes scarce, won't wages go up?

If wages go up, won't that attract more folks into the business?