Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

benjaminh

roadburner said:

....
That generation of 5 Series is not all that entertaining(M5 excepted); woolly steering and handling that was less than inspiring. To each his own, but light-years away from my cup of tea.

It's more luxury than sport, but a lot of both for someone like me who has been driving Accords for the last 16 years.

I had a friend in the 1990s who always got BMWs, and the seats on the 5-series he had were amazing. Iirc those seats were even slightly more comfortable and supportive than those in my 2018 Acura TLX with Milano leather. Anyway, I'm hoping that a BMW 5-series from 2015 has seats just as good as a BMW from the 1990s? And probably the handling of it would be fine for my tastes.

I do like how my TLX with 4-wheel steering handles. It's really great around corners.

roadburner

You want either the sport seats or the comfort seats. I prefer the sport seats, but the comfort seats have more adjustments.

benjaminh

My very subjective ranking of the best seats that I've tried in luxury cars....

1. BMW
2. Mercedes Benz
3. Acura, Audi, Lexus etc.

I haven't been in a Volvo in more than 20 years, and back then their seats seemed good but maybe 4th. The other luxury cars I can't recall right now trying. Probably Cadillac is now somewhere up there in the top 3, but I haven't been in a Cadillac since the 1990s.

stickguy

Volvo is right up there. The whizbang fancy multi adjustable ones in the XC90 are killer. But all the ones you listed are very comfy, and I think it tends to be individual preference which fit best.

Lexus has really good seats too.

qbrozen

I only like BMW sport seats, and they are a bit firm. Caddy is also firm. Volvo is still #1 in my book. My Alfa seat is quite good, but lacks enough adjustability for me. If it wasn't for that, it may be #2. 

dino001

BMW’s non sports seats are awful. Too short thigh support. Volvo’s are good. My 2003 WRX I used to own had unbelievable seats, if I were just a bit slimmer

But best seat I heve ever sat was 25 years ago Peugeot 405. Great bolstering, soft around the edges, but firm and supportive in main section. Phenomenal.

stickguy

I always loved the seat in my Mazda 626. very comfy!

last week I was looking at BMWs (X1 and X2). X2 had the fancier sport seats (memory linked adjustable upper bolsters too). The X1 had base seats. Salesguy referred to them as "mini" seats. I thought he meant smaller, until he clarified, as out of a Mini!

benjaminh

stickguy said:

Volvo is right up there....

From the pix and reviews, I like the new Volvo S60 and V60 a lot, but it was worrying to see them dead last in the reliability survey by Consumer Reports. I take those ratings with a few grains of salt, but seems like you might need a few more than that to get a Volvo.

dino001

benjaminh said:

stickguy said:

Volvo is right up there....

From the pix and reviews, I like the new Volvo S60 and V60 a lot, but it was worrying to see them dead last in the survey by Consumer Reports. I take those ratings with a few grains of salt, but seems like you might need a few more than that to get a Volvo.

Are these ratings for 2018 or 2019 models? I don’t think 2019 are available yet, let alone rated by CR, which buys cars retail.

stickguy

that was just their overall marque reliability ratings.

benjaminh

dino001 said:

benjaminh said:

stickguy said:

Volvo is right up there....

From the pix and reviews, I like the new Volvo S60 and V60 a lot, but it was worrying to see them dead last in the survey by Consumer Reports. I take those ratings with a few grains of salt, but seems like you might need a few more than that to get a Volvo.

Are these ratings for 2018 or 2019 models? I don’t think 2019 are available yet, let alone rated by CR, which buys cars retail.

Yeah, this is just on past models. Maybe the new ones will be better.

It's just that goofy (imho) survey that CR has its members fill out based on their own cars. I don't think it's really "scientific," although I guess it is a large sample size. But there is a reason that Lexus and Toyota always end up at the top. That does seem to be based on something.

"Volvo, which came in dead last, was far behind the rest of the pack. Its fleet suffered from habitual issues with their infotainment system (including freezes), issues with climate control, and interior rattling. The S90 was also hit with complaints about engine knock. Yikes."

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2018/10/americans-suffer-in-consumer-reports-2018-brand-reliability-rankings/#more-1646518

benjaminh

http://www.autonews.com/article/20181023/BLOG06/181029897/nactoy-ford-gm-hyundai-jaguar

"Richard Truett: Why these three vehicles will get my NACTOY votes
October 23, 2018 @ 12:00 pm

....One vehicle I looked forward to driving was the Cadillac XT4 crossover. Now, to my eyes, that vehicle is nicely designed inside and out. I particularly like the instrument panel and its lower row of switches, shaped a bit like the famous Cadillac V used in some classic versions the brand's crest and wreath logo.

I didn't get far before I came to the conclusion that the XT4 doesn't deserve to wear a Cadillac badge.

The snarling 2.0-liter engine has the demeanor of an angry chainsaw running at full throttle. The suspension system was as subtle as a child's birthday party bounce house. Bottom line: Not class competitive, not even close. With the XT4, I wonder if GM ran out of funds to properly render a vehicle befitting the Cadillac badge?....

Now for some good surprises: There is no doubt in my mind that Hyundai has arrived as one of the world's elite automakers. The Genesis G70 sport sedan is a bona fide threat to BMW, Audi and Mercedes. The 3.3-liter twin-turbo V-6 is a rocket booster of an engine. The chassis is firm. The steering and brakes are dialed in perfectly.

Despite the copycat German influenced interior, the G70 was the best car I have tested this year....

Acura's RDX, despite having a schnoz inspired by the late comedian Jimmy Durante, is a terrific crossover — quiet, smooth, loaded with safety technology and equipped with a great sounding 2.0-liter turbo engine that is mated to a 10-speed automatic.

But the Jaguar I-Pace gets my vote as the utility of the year. It may have four doors and a higher ride height than a coupe, but it drives like a pure sports car. The torque from the twin electric motors is powerful and instant. The interior is typical Jaguar -- high quality and very stylish. True, the infotainment system can be fussy, but you forget that when you are driving. The I-Pace will get my vote for Utility of the Year...."

(Much more at the link.)

dino001

Yeah, Volvo's reliability has not been best for ages now. I wonder if their new product line (after Chinese owner's much needed multibilllion dollar R&D investments) will do better. It is definitely much more attractive visually and feature wise. They are promoting this goofy (in my opinion) subscription thing, which I don't think will go anywhere, but I see it being pushed not just here.

ab348

That Auto News article seems strange when it comes to the XT4. His conclusions regarding the engine and ride are diametrically opposed to all other reports I have read. And to claim the I-Pace as a winner when the E-Pace is suffering from significant engine noise, transmission, and ride issues makes me question his judgement. Would you really be willing to jump into Jag's first all-electric vehicle given their developmental track record?

dino001

ab348 said:

That Auto News article seems strange when it comes to the XT4. His conclusions regarding the engine and ride are diametrically opposed to all other reports I have read. And to claim the I-Pace as a winner when the E-Pace is suffering from significant engine noise, transmission, and ride issues makes me question his judgement. Would you really be willing to jump into Jag's first all-electric vehicle given their developmental track record?

I believe I-Pace won't have engine or transmission noise by nature of electric motor. There may still be tires and suspension issues, but the car will be much quieter. Everybody in Europe is raving about E-Pace so far. They essentially think it's the first in line to trounce Tesla X.

ab348

I was talking their developmental challenges. If they have problems with getting the things I mentioned right on a ICE model I would have to wonder how well they will make out with their first all-electric vehicle.

benjaminh

For used entry-level luxury on a very small budget, what about this 2004 Jaguar X-Type 3.0 with real wood trim. Looks to be in nice shape and only has 79k miles. They are asking $5640. Probably less than the price of a 2004 Camry with these miles in this condition.

https://www.bachmanvolkswagen.com/inventory/used-2004-jaguar-x-type-awd-4dr-car-sajea51c24wd83357

qbrozen

I'd probably rather have the Camry

ab348

benjaminh said:

For used entry-level luxury on a very small budget, what about this 2004 Jaguar X-Type 3.0 with real wood trim. Looks to be in nice shape and only has 79k miles. They are asking $5640. Probably less than the price of a 2004 Camry with these miles in this condition.

No, no, no.

My boss's wife had one of those. Troublesome car. A Ford in a Jag suit of clothes.

carnaught

I had one, in blue, bought new. Not a single problem, actually very nice.

Mr_Shiftright

ab348 said:

benjaminh said:

The latest reliability survey from Consumer Reports puts BMW above Acura, and so perhaps I need to eat my words. Toyota and Lexus are at the top, as usual. Volvo is in last place....

http://www.autonews.com/article/20181024/RETAIL/181029858/consumer-reports-reliability-survey-detroit

"....Meanwhile, Lexus and Toyota topped the predicted new-vehicle reliability ranking for the sixth year in a row. Mazda jumped nine spots to finish third -- making it the most improved brand this year -- while Subaru, Kia, Infiniti, Audi, BMW, Mini and Hyundai rounded out the top 10.

Interesting that Honda wasn't in the top 10? I thought they usually were? Hard to believe Mini, Audi, BMW and Hyundai were in the top 10 and they were not.

benjaminh said:

The nonprofit also highlighted the trend of automakers turbocharging smaller engines to give vehicles both pep and fuel economy -- with mixed results. Lexus has the most reliable turbo powertrain, followed by Honda and Porsche, while Hyundai and Mini have the most problematic ones, Consumer Reports said.

Hmmm. This seemingly ignores the Honda 1.5 turbo engine's woes that have been discussed at some length recently. Also not sure how Hyundai and Mini can have a troublesome turbo engine yet be ranked in the top 10 in overall reliability. Confusing.

I think these ratings take in the entire model range, so an automaker could have 5 very reliable models and one turkey, and that will knock them down in the overall rating. Honda has obviously suffered a few glitches.

Same thing for Tesla, which rates very low--but it's the S and X that are to blame, not the 3.

pensfan83

I take CR's ratings with a grain of salt because some of the ratings are skewed by issues that don't affect reliability at all such as those who denigrate CUE, iDrive, MyFordTouch because of their complexity, speed, UI, etc.

roadburner

benjaminh said:

For used entry-level luxury on a very small budget, what about this 2004 Jaguar X-Type 3.0 with real wood trim. Looks to be in nice shape and only has 79k miles. They are asking $5640. Probably less than the price of a 2004 Camry with these miles in this condition.

https://www.bachmanvolkswagen.com/inventory/used-2004-jaguar-x-type-awd-4dr-car-sajea51c24wd83357

They are dogs- in essence a tarted-up AWD Contour- of course a 2004 Camry is right up there in my automotive purgatory ratings as well.

stickguy

Nice color combo though

benjaminh

For about the price of a new 2019 Civic LX CVT (msrp $21,145), you can get this certified 2014 Acura RLX V-6 Tech with 47k miles. Asking price $22k....A lot of car for the money imho. The 2014 Acura doesn't have CarPlay/AA, but neither does an LX Civic—you have to move up to the Sport to get that.

https://www.acuraofauburn.com/vehicle-details/used-2014-acura-rlx-tech-pkg-auburn-ma-id-26603055

stickguy

looks nice with the light interior. Bigger than I care for. I do remember sitting in one at the dealer back in the day, and thinking that it really just felt like a supesized Accord. Of course, the Accord later grew to be just about as big.

benjaminh

The RLX is a little big for my tastes too. The TLX seems like the right size, and is quite nimble around corners. Also the interior of the RLX doesn't seem much fancier than the TLX.

Mr_Shiftright

roadburner said:

benjaminh said:

For used entry-level luxury on a very small budget, what about this 2004 Jaguar X-Type 3.0 with real wood trim. Looks to be in nice shape and only has 79k miles. They are asking $5640. Probably less than the price of a 2004 Camry with these miles in this condition.

https://www.bachmanvolkswagen.com/inventory/used-2004-jaguar-x-type-awd-4dr-car-sajea51c24wd83357


They are dogs- in essence a tarted-up AWD Contour- of course a 2004 Camry is right up there in my automotive purgatory ratings as well.

I wouldn't give you $500 bucks for that thing. God-awful car.

kyfdx

benjaminh said:

For about the price of a new 2019 Civic LX CVT (msrp $21,145), you can get this certified 2014 Acura RLX V-6 Tech with 47k miles. Asking price $22k....A lot of car for the money imho. The 2014 Acura doesn't have CarPlay/AA, but neither does an LX Civic—you have to move up to the Sport to get that.

https://www.acuraofauburn.com/vehicle-details/used-2014-acura-rlx-tech-pkg-auburn-ma-id-26603055

5 yr old luxury care with no warranty vs a new economy car?

If money matters, it’s an easy choice

benjaminh

Certified 2014 E 350 with 36k miles offered for $27,700. Original msrp $60,950....

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/751614932/overview/

stickguy

nice car, but I don't care for those wheels on it.

benjaminh

Those wheels are a bit much on the bling scale. I like the seat controls in the E-class, although I'm not sure if functionally there any better than what I've got now. Probably not. But they look nice. I also like the little extra pocket on the passenger side. Not sure how useful that would really be, but it's a nice touch.

But yes, a new Civic is going to have a much lower cost to own over the years than a used luxury car. Higher gas costs, higher insurance costs, more expensive maintenance, more frequent and more expensive repairs, etc. But if you can afford it, for some people it's nicer to drive a luxury car than a Civic.

henryn

I don't recall ever noticing an RLX. One of these days I might have to try one on for size.

stickguy

you like bigger cars. will probably like this one. It is big, roomy and comfy. Basically a 5/4 scale 2005 Accord V6 with AWD.

benjaminh

henryn said:

I don't recall ever noticing an RLX. One of these days I might have to try one on for size.

The Acura RLX sells in very small numbers—less than 1000 a year. Acura must have lost a lot of money of that car. It probably took at least a billion dollars to develop, and they they just updated it and so it's not dead yet. But I wonder if they will just kill the RLX in another few years if the trend toward SUVs continues. I guess it's a halo vehicle to allow them to compete with Mercedes, BMW, and Audi.

For just slightly more than a certified TLX V-6 you get a certified RLX.

sda

My BIL bought a CPO RLX with 30k. He drives about 4k a month in the region he manages. About a year ago he gave it to his sons to drive at college. 310k basically trouble free miles. Original engine, trans, a/c. About 3 months ago the check engine light came on and he decided the car had done its service. Traded it for a used Sonata Sport for his sons. BIL bought a used '13 Accord V6 with 80k which now has around 130k.

Mr_Shiftright

stickguy said:

nice car, but I don't care for those wheels on it.

They look cheap, don't they?

cdnpinhead

There's no accounting for taste.

jpp75

A few months ago @breld and @michaell and I stopped at the local Acura dealer to look at the new RDX and for @michaell to drive a TLX. When we returned from the test drive there was a certified RLX parked a couple of spots down. I can't recall the exact numbers but it was only a couple thousand more than the TLX with lower miles but it was a year or two older. IIRC it was a 2015 with less than 25k miles for something like $24,900. The TLX was probably still a better buy though.

stickguy

I am more interested in whether I would enjoy driving it for many years, than what looks like on paper to be "more car".

jpp75

stickguy said:

I am more interested in whether I would enjoy driving it for many years, than what looks like on paper to be "more car".

Agreed, and in that case the TLX wins hands down.

benjaminh

The wheel design for my 2016 Accord was a goofy imho pinwheel design with chrome and blacked out areas. Never quite got used to it. The design on my 2018 TLX is also a little odd. I think of it as "pewter butter knives of alternating sizes"? But overall I like the TLX wheels better. I think they look a little more sophisticated and subdued....

benjaminh

TFL says the new styling of the 2019 Acura ILX is an improvement. New tech features including standard AcuraWatch and faster and better touchscreen help too. Mechanically though it's about the same as it was before, with a 2.4 that makes 200 hp and an 8-speed DCT with torque converter. Msrp has been cut by $3k and now starts at c.$27k. A good car for the money imho, but not surprisingly I like the TLX better....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYkZ0vTM2Vc

benjaminh

Guest takes over Scotty Kilmer's show to show off his newly purchased but used 2006 12-cylinder BMW 760. The car has factory installed fridge in the back seat, massaging seats, etc. Original msrp was $120k. I wonder what he paid for it? Maybe $30k?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzMmcOQwsXo

stickguy

best thing about those Acura wheels, is they put tires one with a good sidewall instead of little rubber band tires!

the ILX does look nice, and the interior was always good. Same exact drivetrain as the 4 cyl. TLX. The TLX just had a little more room inside and better suspension. I don't think they changed that much on the new ILX, but it does seem like a good value.

benjaminh

For less than the msrp of a new 320i you could be the owner of this certified 2015 740i with less than 27,000 miles. Clean carfax with regular oil changes. I like that it's not the long wheelbase version of this car, which makes it more manageable to drive. Original msrp c.$100k? Asking price $36,900.

A nearly new top-of-the-line BMW for fewer dollars per pound of car than a new loaded Camry or Accord.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/745708333/overview/

"M SPORT PACKAGE,BANG & OLUFSEN SOUND SYSTEM,BLACK; NAPPA LEATHER UPHOLSTERY,MULTI-CONTOUR SEATS,WHEELS: 20" X 8.5" FR/20" X 10" RR (STYLE 303M),Sun/Moonroof,Leather Seats,PARKING ASSISTANT,Navigation System,Keyless Start,Bluetooth Connection,Rear Spoiler,ALPINE WHITEThis vehicle includes a Money-Back Guarantee* and passed our precise inspection process. Best of all the price you see is the price you pay. No haggling. No back and forth. No pressure. And this price is so good it is guaranteed. #VENTILATED_SEATS #PARKING_SENSORS #BLUETOOTH #NAVIGATION...."

carnaught

Black interior ruins it.

Mr_Shiftright

benjaminh said:

Guest takes over Scotty Kilmer's show to show off his newly purchased but used 2006 12-cylinder BMW 760. The car has factory installed fridge in the back seat, massaging seats, etc. Original msrp was $120k. I wonder what he paid for it? Maybe $30k?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzMmcOQwsXo

$30K would be way above retail---it's probably worth $20K. A miled-up one would be less.

benjaminh

Used entry level luxury—2006 BMW 5-series AWD wagon with a rare manual transmission. 117k miles. Asking $8500. In another reality I might consider this one if it was local....

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/731915120/overview/

"The classic of classics! A black manual transmission BMW 5 series station wagon, likely to go another hundred thousand miles. In excellent condition, everything working, tires nearly new. We have driven it for years, are the second owner and have had no problems but we are getting old for manual transmission cars. We did the cooling system upgrade after reading that it can cause problems eventually. A California car throughout its life! Rain sensing wipers, anthracite maple trim, power glass moonroof, adaptive Xenon headlights, stability control, all wheel drive works superbly, actually gets near 30mpg. Roof rails and carrier bars. We installed a lightweight tow hitch, have never pulled a trailer but iaccepts a bike rack nicely and would pull a small trailer if you needed to. Takes premium fuel. From the original window sticker, which we still have,parts: 80% Germany, 5% US/CanadaOrigin of Engine: GermanyOrigin of Transmission: Germanyassembly Dingolfing, Germany"

qbrozen

"likely to go another hundred thousand miles."
Ok, then warranty the car for me and we got a deal.