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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2016
    While I take your numbers as honest & @ face value, for starters, they belie an honest comparison. The 3.6 L 6 cylinder/ CVT Subaru (gasser) puts out 247# ft of torque vs the 2.0 L 4 cylinder 6 speed DSG/manual ( diesel) TDI's 236# ft of torque. (-4.45% less)The (your) Subie has 80% greater displacement! It gets 45% less mpg!
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    MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 241,480
    ruking1 said:

    While I take your numbers as honest & @ face value, for starters, they belie an honest comparison. The 3.6 L 6 cylinder/ CVT Subaru (gasser) puts out 247# ft of torque vs the 2.0 L 4 cylinder 6 speed DSG/manual ( diesel) TDI's 236# ft of torque. (-4.45% less)The (your) Subie has 80% greater displacement! It gets 45% less mpg!

    Yep. And we're OK with that.

    Wife likes the smoothness of the 6, and I doubt I could convince her to go with a diesel.

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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2016
    Yes and most diesel forks are totally OK with what 95 to 98% (PVF) of what gasser choices are made.

    The umbrage enters when there are full court presses to further restrict DIESEL (& or other ) choices. Think about it, nobody on the gasser side threatens to ban, to hold up gassers when a gas or OEM admits or is found to be cheating on engine mpg &/or emissions. But then, the "SmartMoney" would make the diesel purchases now, when everybody is running scared.

    More on-topic, we should get back on diesels, would you not agree? B)
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    xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,803
    ruking1 said:

    More on-topic, I don't even know why were talking about the (gasser) Subaru, US market, other then Subaru diesels with a "proper" Diesel engine & transmissions are available worldwide. Respectfully, what the hell does that have to do with US markets ? :D

    To serve as another reminder that we don't have everything in America? :'(

    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    MPG cheats are pretty common - do we have a lot of gassers cheating on emissions too?

    Other than VW that is? B) (NY Times)
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2016
    Well, think about it, the tests that found that EPA/CARB were asleep @ the wheels did NOT include (similar) tests on gassers, let along different OEM makes!!
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    And have there been cases? I'm a bit swamped from company and travel last week so I have just done a cursory search. Feel free to fill in the blanks.
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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,716
    The EU fuel economy tests have been optimistic since I started following them, the Prius over there got much better results than under the US tests. This news report is strictly about fuel consumption, and the resulting CO2 emissions. The on-road tests I've seen found that gassers pretty well met their CO/HC/NOx pollution specs, unlike the VW diesels.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2016
    Nothing says that the EU cars have to follow EPA/CARB computer " DRIVE" protocols. In addition 80% of EU cars have manual transmissions. I can easily get 3 to 5 mpg BETTER "optimistic" mpg.

    In regards to my post, you are totally ignoring what I said, thus, missing the point!
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Well, they do if they want to import them and sell them here. :)

    Should be easy enough to test for (good point about the fake mpg ratings causing more CO2), unless all the grant money dried up after the W. VA folks nailed VW.
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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,716
    As usual @ruking1 I'm missing your point. You said gassers weren't tested, I said outside on road tests showed those gassers that were tested met specs. Your point?
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2016
    On your first point, you and I both know that it costs an arm &/or a leg to certify EACH model car for US markets! There also is the danger that more models will dilute an OEMs strategy, profit and/or otherwise. So if you're the one that has the ability to let those models to the US market in FREE, then yeah , they're (SO) missing their opportunity! Indeed, they don't even have to import them into the country (USA) factory order your EU model for delivery to FOB Port of Long Beach... US markets.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    So the ones they do sell meet specs. Got it.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2016
    I'd say yes and no. BMW, for example makes certain models in SC for US markets & world wide delivery!?( yes, diesel variants too) If you believe our politicians about the globalization of trade, then why not accept the EU standards as valid? Why increase their costs for MASSIVE diminishing returns? Do (you) we really want to drive out auto manufacturing, after spending so much to get them ?

    A whole bunch of people spend a lot of effort and money, trying & succeeding to get VW to build in Chattanooga Tennessee! Same point !?
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Different states and countries have different standards. I can see where BMW would dumb down their cars for other markets to save a buck, but that wouldn't fly in California.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2016
    Actually the truth has been, is, will remain totally the opposite! BMW dumbs down the US market models! Just because it's dumbed down, doesn't mean it doesn't cost a hell of a lot of money to ...dumb down :s

    While I have not kept up with the differences in models between US and EU standards, for example, the 2003 Jetta TDI the EU model had a 6 speed MT, bigger injectors, vs US model 5 speed MT & smaller injectors, converting to more HP/TORQUE & 3 mpg better!? To match the EU model, AFTERMARKET is north of $6,500 US D.

    Incidentally, it does meet or come under emission standards @ the time. I do wish however, that somebody would test it & find cheating, so I can get way more for the old model than I can score on the used car market! :D
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2016
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/mercedes-benz-taking-wagon-more-152258936.html

    MB E class 4matic? When will the D model (diesel) hit the US market?

    Emissions Progress?http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2016/0802/Volkswagen-diesel-modifications-begin-testing-in-California.-Can-faulty-cars-be-fixed
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    andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    gagrice said:

    fintail said:

    Are there any high power diesel CVTs sold anywhere? I can see one maybe on a 1 liter Eurobox sold as a cheap car to the drones in Brussels who don't want to shell out for a hybrid, but not in anything with real torque.

    That Civic review is kind of amusing, makes it almost sound like a clutchless manual - it's so great, but to actually be good, gotta shift for yourself.

    Having done my due diligence testing a CVT Subaru, I am not at all impressed. They are probably fine for flat landers. I hated driving on any hill at speed. I would never get used to a screaming engine over worked getting up a long grade. The reason Subarau gave up on selling their fine diesel here was a lack of adequate auto transmission. They are sold where people still buy manual transmissions.

    TopGear says it best:
    With 200mm of ground clearance and a torque-sapping CVT mated to the petrol whether you like it or not, the Outback’s no driver’s car. For this reason, we’d strongly advise you stick to the diesel instead – a unique flat-four boxer turbo design at that. And although it sounds like a WRX-lite, the flat-four petrol 2.5-litre is nothing of the sort, disappointment further compounded by its standard CVT gearbox.
    There is the 2.0T in the Forester "XT" model line. the XT standing for extra HP I suppose. That HP comes with a good amount of torque. Upon a test drive, I felt the 2.0T made up for the CVT's rubber-band like feel, while the 2.5 suffered from it. Of course, MPG's suffer; hence why the wife ended up in the '15 Golf Sportwagen TDI with DSG transmission.

    The other main factor was VW's interior hand a leg up on Subaru's.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,184
    MB allroad. I'd prefer it to a CUV/SUV anyway, although I would prefer a sportier wagon over both.

    No word on when the gas W213-based wagon will be here yet, no word on a 213 diesel sedan yet, we never got a 212 diesel wagon, so a diesel 213 wagon is maybe wishful thinking.
    ruking1 said:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/mercedes-benz-taking-wagon-more-152258936.html

    MB E class 4matic? When will the D model (diesel) hit the US market?

    Emissions Progress?http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2016/0802/Volkswagen-diesel-modifications-begin-testing-in-California.-Can-faulty-cars-be-fixed

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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2016
    I don't doubt diesel MB 4 matic station wagons are most likely wishful thinking.

    I'm glad you do not have to face some of CA winter chain control points. The CUV/SUV with 4 matic passes all but the most extreme ( R3 ) conditions. http://www.dot.ca.gov/trafficops/permits/winter.html

    RT is excited @ the prospect of Skoda coming to the USA markets ! http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/news/a29432/skoda-us-sales-rumor/

    More immenient, 2017 BMW diesels EPA approved! https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-approves-2017-bmw-diesel-sales-204959894--finance.html
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2016
    This article is an interesting take on why (gasser) cars cost so much .... more lately.http://finance.yahoo.com/news/won-t-believe-much-car-000000034.html
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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,716
    Seems to apply to all vehicles. Low fuel prices = demand for bigger, more expensive cars/trucks/SUVs. If one compares same on same, cars haven't increased in prices in 30 years, adjusted for inflation.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2016
    Your points being?

    Now, IF you mean that I'd pay the 30 years ago prices (adjusted, not same) & you'd pay the "now" prices, I'd take you up on it!

    Be that as it may, Chevrolt is doing the diesel Cruse. http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/03/second-gen-chevy-cruze-diesel/
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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,716
    Point is, it has nothing to do with 'gasser'. And that equivalent cars aren't more expensive. It's that we're buying much bigger cars/SUVs/trucks these days.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    95 to 97 % of PVF are gassers and that has nothing to do with gassers? Your "issues" certainly are not with me!
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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,716
    You were in error indicating it was a 'gasser' issue. It applies equally to diesels.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2016
    No! No it does not. There are a lot of differences, starting with more expensive diesel drivetrain & cost of compliance over gassers to cheaper MSRP! So while you may discount it, to being dismissive @ the 40,000 ft level, it's WAY different at the ground level! But then, you know that, being on this thread!
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    It's not just VW, all is not well behind closed doors !? http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2016/08/02/showdown-erupts-over-federal-emissions-fuel-economy-rules/87964854/
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2016
    The diesel lead has always been VW's to LOSE or...win!? http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/chevrolet-cruze-diesel-news-sales-goals-specs-quotes/
    Chevy (GM) has a very hot diesel offering in the compact truck market.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Broader view? http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-04/toyota-reduces-profit-forecast-as-yen-gains-americans-snub-cars?cmpid=yhoo.headline&yptr=yahoo
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    SUVs and trucks are definitely broader.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2016
    Absolutely!

    Most diesels compete in the much smaller (25% of PVF)) "small" car segment.

    IN the much BIGGER (75% of PVF) large car to CUV/SUV, " light truck" segment. It is almost insane to claim the gas hybrid can meet and exceed the diesel, diesel hybrid. Indeed, if the gas hybrid could EXCEED TDI mpg, it would've been done, already!!

    So, defacto, it is disingenuous to argue in favor of better mpg, while actually trying to limit, to getting rid of vehicles (like HIGHER mpg DIESELS) that actually POST HIGHER mpg !!! ???

    So for example, it's easy to say that my large diesel CUV which posts 33 MPG would post 19 to 22 MPG (with a "RECOMMENDED" gasoline engine option) The diesel uses approximately 33% less fuel!! Or gets 50% better mpg!

    So it's easy to see that the mandated action is to use MORE fuel!!! ???
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Legally you mean?

    :p
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2016
    No! I can use what the CUV MB GLK 250 BT posts, 63% BETTER mpg. 39% less fuel! :DB)

    To think that electrical cars have zero environmental impacts is/are fantasies to an exercise in insanity!
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited August 2016
    I don't think anyone thinks that. There are some benes like monitoring the emissions in one spot instead of all over the map. It's a lot easier to clean up or shut down Four Corners than getting some yahoo in a lifted soot wagon off the road. And there's the waste stream created by maintaining gas and diesel engines.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2016
    It is almost totally untrue ! The "waste" in electrical energy is far more both in storage & in distribution than the ones being replaced !

    Indeed they can't even measure the REAL WORLD effects of vehicles like Prius in LALA LANDS smog.

    Toyotas own data on lifecycle impacts data show that Prius creates just as much if not more waste streams than equivalent gas cars.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Yeah, but if you go to Four Corners you can measure the coal that LA is burning. In town they have like four natural gas plants. LA plans to be coal free by 2025.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2016
    By that time they STILL will NOT have figures as to how much switching to electrical saved in smog! :@

    My guess even with 100% electrical cars, they still won't meet their smog goals!

    As you know, I posted some time back the local government agency that actually provides real-time & world data!
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Sometimes when you look back 10 or 20 years, things look radically different.

    Other times it looks like we're taking nothing but small steps....
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2016
    The "German" car maker is clearly being exorted! In terms of getting rid of overall pollution: micro x7 steps with infinisimally small results. O
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited August 2016
    Well, they blatantly cheated and lied for years and years (little old ladies sniffing tailpipes anyone)? Serves 'em right for getting hammered. There really should be jail time involved.
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yep! EPA & CARB were asleep @ the wheel all those years also! Jail time is equally warranted!
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited August 2016
    They were testing what they were required to be testing.

    I've been thinking about a fitting "hard labor" punishment for Winterkorn and the rest. Give them a set of Harbor Freight wrenches and hammers and make 'em dismantle and recycle a TDI every day of their sentence. :D
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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,716
    Yep, arrest the police because the criminals were too clever...
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,184
    edited August 2016
    Willfully be negligent to save a few bucks and cost many lives - fines. Cheat and lie (or get caught, which is the issue) - jail. OK, you can fund that with your taxes. The prison system is already overcrowded due to it being a job-creating industry for the Praetorian sector, this makes sense. And of course absolve the arrogant Feds, who should have had the foresight to find any cheating devices, but didn't. I guess that's the untouchable negligence again, good enough for gubbamint work.

    Maybe make the execs ride in a penalty box hybrid 200 miles a day for 5 years or live in an area contaminated by rare earths production for EV batteries. Oh wait, that pollution doesn't count ;)





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    andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    texases said:

    Yep, arrest the police because the criminals were too clever...

    I think the Analogy would be more like getting charged $45 to search and inspect your car every two years, only to find out they never really searched or inspected for anything, and just wanted to cheat you out of some money.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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    ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    We get ripped off in other ways also. One easy example is that we have to pay Federal & state sales tax replacing a TDI, brought for buyback ! They should give taxes credits for those scenarios!
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    henrynhenryn Member Posts: 4,289
    Boy, we really have a lot of very defensive people in here, don't we? Not at all like the rest of the Edmunds forums, where people are genuinely nice and friendly.
    2023 Chevrolet Silverado, 2019 Chrysler Pacifica
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,184
    I picked up the old car today, and my indy mechanic took at look at the E250. He loves it, and said he has been thinking about picking one up himself (as with all of these, depreciation has been fierce). He says so far the 4cyl diesel has had very few issues.
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    kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 237,541
    henryn said:

    Boy, we really have a lot of very defensive people in here, don't we? Not at all like the rest of the Edmunds forums, where people are genuinely nice and friendly.

    Hi, Henry! :p

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