What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

stever

Don't forget that Tesla hopes to be harvesting that juice with their solar farms so selling it in the future is another income stream for them. They'd probably love to bypass whatever they call ConEd out there, but I think they are stuck with using the grid to deliver the power.

houdini1

stever said:

Don't forget that Tesla hopes to be harvesting that juice with their solar farms so selling it in the future is another income stream for them. They'd probably love to bypass whatever they call ConEd out there, but I think they are stuck with using the grid to deliver the power.

gagrice said:

Houdini: Think of the loss of gasoline taxes to gov. Might start charging EV drivers the equivalent in gas taxes.

Diesel tax today in CA is 63.09 cents per gallon. Or in my Touareg it adds about 2.3 cents per mile. If they add that to EVs it will push them close to twice as much per mile as my Touareg. And way more than double in Fintail's MB E diesel. You know with states looking at charging tax by the mile the EV will be on their radar. At least when they get established. Kind of like Tesla pulling the free juice from future buyers.

It is really a double barrel hit to gov revenue. The loss of gas tax revenue, plus the 8 to 10 thousand dollar tax subsidy that goes to each buyer of an EV.

I also wonder if those that are getting free juice from Tesla have to declare that amount as income. I would think Tesla takes a tax deduction somewhere for being so generous.

ruking1

Wow, the WSJ article gave the clearest data (to figure the mpg formula, .4 kWh per mile) I've seen to date:

400 kWh (to go) roughly 1000 miles .

17.2 cents per mile driven

(@ Gagrice's electrical (penalty) rates (.43 per kWh * .4 kWh a mile,)

Adding that with other data from other articles I've read, I've presented a rosy picture if I stop there. So if there is a -15% loss (150 miles) after 1 year & -20% seasonal (200 miles), those = -350 miles + 1,000 miles = 650 miles. This is NOTincluding the electrical rate SEASONALITY! So the real world can see 23.22 cents, PLUS , cost per mile driven: fuel.

I've read in more than one article, that one really does not want to regularly deep discharge lithium ion batteries. The regular deep discharge of the batteries gives less range and less capacity, faster.

So which does one want to choose?

17.2 cents to 23.22 cents. PLUS + cpmd: fuel.) electricity

vs

15.2 cents (cpmd: fuel) PUG

( is what the 12 VW Touareg gaser clocks, $2.89 PUG)

vs

7.9697 cents ( cpmd: fuel) ULSD

(is what the (my) 12 VW Touareg clocks (33 mpg, $2.63 USLD local price.)

Hmmmmmmmmmm.....?

Of course, where would we be without TMI ?

ZERO battery impacts?
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/01/19/tesla-motors-dirty-little-secret-is-a-major-proble.aspx

..."Residential electricity consumption in California averages 573 kWh/month, which ranks 48th in the U.S"...

http://www.electricitylocal.com/states/california/

Actual M kWh commodity trades, whsle prices less than 2.4 cents per kWh. Let's see sell @ 43 cents? OMG!!! http://www.eia.gov/electricity/wholesale/xls/ice_electric-2016.xlsh )

RUG $1.50/ ULSD $1.48 whsle.

4 year estimates are continued LOW oil prices!! @ the decimation of domestic oil production?

OPEC Warns Oil Prices Will Stay Low for Longer
OPEC says its share of the global market will increase as U.S. output from shale fields slows down

http://www.wsj.com/articles/opec-says-non-opec-supply-to-fall-until-end-next-year-1478589646

xwesx

Wow; 573 kWh monthly is pretty darn good. I imagine that some of that is subsidized with the availability of natural gas for appliances like heaters, dryers, and ranges. I use about 750 per month, down from about a thousand before I switched to LED lighting and bought a water heater with a heat pump. I've had the water heater for nearly three years now, and it has "officially" paid for itself in electricity savings over that time. Hopefully it will last long enough to pay for the next one before I even need to buy it!

I'm sure the variable rates in CA heavily influence overall consumption. We pay about $00.22 for our electricity today, and it is the same rate for the first kWh as the last.

ruking1

As you have defacto noted, CA users are getting penalized for using LESS! 48th /50 ranked electrical!!! 22 cents kWh vs penalty @ 43 cents= 95% more!

Yes we have natural gas for products like : water heaters, clothes dryers, ranges, ovens. There are some articles that indicate a decrease of 75% for natural gas air-conditioning units vs electric. That probably explains why electrical air-conditioning units are so much more available!

gagrice

As you can see from my Sept 2016 bill the rates they claim are far from the rates we pay in San Diego. August was very warm and we used the AC. Not a lot but enough to run our bill up to 910 KWHs used. Anyway you figure it we paid 29.8 cents per KWH used. Several of those charges like Distribution and Transmission you pay even if you have solar panels. I did not reach tier 3 this month. It is never the same.

gagrice

PS
we don't have natural gas in our area. Propane is another HUUUUGE rip-off. That is why I gather wood and use a wood stove on those cold nights. We cook, heat water and use a gas dryer on propane. The two furnaces in the house suck up the propane. We just put on a heavier shirt.

stever

Here's a summary for the last six months or so. We also use maybe $1,200 worth of propane a year, mostly for heating the house. Hard to justify going off the grid, although a dedicated panel for an EV would be fun..

gagrice

stever said:

Here's a summary for the last six months or so. We also use maybe $1,200 worth of propane a year, mostly for heating the house. Hard to justify going off the grid, although a dedicated panel for an EV would be fun..

I have never had a bill as low as $55. I have used less than 485 KWHs and was not rewarded with a low bill. If I ever used 1500 my bill would be over $500. As you can see by last months bill we used about the same and your bill was 40% less. Living in CA ain't cheap. RUG is up to $2.85 close to me and diesel is the same. And a lousy made in Mexico avocado is 2 bucks.

stever

We have a summer rate here and that hammers us, relatively speaking. My wife was an energy auditor for a few years and you know how frugal I am, so that helps a lot. Should I mention our last water bill that was around $12.50?

I'm already dropping hints for a San Fran trip after LA. It may be pricy, but California sure is a nice place to visit. I think y'all have fewer rolling coal nuts too.

Michaell

My electric bill has averaged about $105/mo this year - high of $161 in August, low of $71 in April. We run AC in the summer and we have heated floors, that I just turned on this week, for the winter.

Furnace is natural gas, as is the water heater. That averages about $44/mo so far in 2016.

ruking1

Natural gas : $13./9 therms, or $1.444 per them. That's furnace, water heater, stove, oven.

Electric : $87.79/433 kWh, or 20.275 cents per kWh.

29 days/$ 100.79 = $ 3.476 per day

stever

Sounds like our setup. Bet I could catch up with your low kWh if I'd shut the computer down every night. Need to swap out about 10 floods inside for LEDs too.

ruking1

Too funny! We've 22 par30 75 watts floods. We use computers @ all hours of the day & night. We've got any number of energy wasting battery chargers drawing electricity. I'm partial to 55 in Panasonic plasmas. But I want to LOSE kWh's.!

OMG! What if they do this to old TDI's? http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/11/08/vw-restorers-keep-old-buses-running/93445190/?ref=yfp

stever

Ya, I thought we were moving over the summer but plans changed so I stalled out. Hm, just did a quick count and I guess I only have 5 left to switch out, plus one patio flood. And yeah, the desktop that I'm on now will go into sleep mode when I switch over to the laptop to read in bed, and there's some pinball played on the iPad in the slack time, and my wife is on her iPad all the time. Guess I could shut down the old laptop in the garage instead of letting it sleep. There's not much on it so it boots fast. Got heated floors in the two bathrooms but never use them. Not sure where else I can cut the electrical usage. 433 would be hard to match here.

You win.

kyfdx

I guess coal is cheap. The electric portion of our last bill was $58 for 637 kWh. Or, under $0.10/kWh.
Plus $35 for natural gas. (furnace, hot water)

ruking1

This might be off topic. It's important to also understand the electrical "GRIDs" are even less efficient. When it's powered by (only) wind & solar, the grids can be positively unstable.

I'm sure the irony is not lost on Germany. They are far further down the solar & wind paths than probably the USA will ever be. They are ramping UP coal fired plants in anticipation of more wind & solar!

Even uncle Warren said solar, wind only makes sense with massive tax credits/write offs & write downs. So BH is loading up on two power companies with that in spades! One will be loathed to see much movement off 40 % coal!

Another irony tha Germany sees, but we do everything to ignore: it is mathematically impossible to use less gasoline in the gasoline PVF without a much higher diesel % PVF, i.e., closer to 60% diesel!

Even the eia.gov noted the barrel of oil gallonage, 19/13. This of corse converts to ratios. Diesel cars use far less, to go more miles than gasoline. ( i'm surprised I still feel the need to say this: like models.)

andres3

stever said:

Get over it? Haven't talked to any Government Motors fans lately eh? (not to mention the first Chrysler bailout in the late 70s.).

VW is still dealing with WWII, there's not going to be any easy "getting over" a 7 year cheat scheme either.

Get back to me when Winterkorn goes to jail and then we can talk.

My main problem with the policy of bailing out Chrysler in the 70's is that it allowed them to still exist in the '90's, which allowed them to cheat, swindle, defraud, and steal money from me in the form of a lemon. My elders failed me in this regard; they could have spared me with reasonable policies to not bail out failures.

"It used to be cars were built in Flint and you couldn't drink the water down in Mexico, now you have cars being built in Mexico and you can't drink the water in Flint" (favorite line of 2016).

andres3

stever said:

We have a summer rate here and that hammers us, relatively speaking. My wife was an energy auditor for a few years and you know how frugal I am, so that helps a lot. Should I mention our last water bill that was around $12.50?

I'm already dropping hints for a San Fran trip after LA. It may be pricy, but California sure is a nice place to visit. I think y'all have fewer rolling coal nuts too.

For Rolling Coal type nuts visit the central Valley, along Highway 99 from Bakersfield to Fresno! Also, go to Santee in East County of San Diego.

ruking1

The "lack of quality" is both endemic & systemic. Selling Chrysler to FIAT was either a stroke of genius or evilness, and/or both. To wit, (the going forward) $$'s cost per car to catch up to even FORD or GM ( emissions wise) makes it a perpetual candidate for bankruptcy: even if both FIAT USA & Fiat World were doing gang busters! It's a great buy if a auto oem needs a boat anchor or massive losses.

So to some, the diesel side is good news! But then to get political PU trucks & SUV'S http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/11/08/survey-republicans-prefer-pickups-democrats-want-suvs/93464090/?ref=yfp

On topic. Make mine diesels!

gagrice

For Rolling Coal type nuts visit the central Valley, along Highway 99 from Bakersfield to Fresno! Also, go to Santee in East County of San Diego.

We moved from Santee. They have a couple specialty shops that work on big diesels. They put the stacks up through the bed. Straight pipes with all the tricks to make them super fast. Well off yuppie cowboy country for sure. They also have VERY aggressive law enforcement.

gagrice

Just visited with a lady that has a 2011 Touareg TDI. She just did a 90k mile service. The service people told her that her vehicle may be in the diesel recall. I asked if she got the $1000 gift cards. She had not. Hers looks Identical to mine. I thought the change came with the 2012 model? They bought it in Scottsdale, AZ, They could not find one without sun roof here. Lifetime mileage 26.5 MPG. She absolutely loves the vehicle. What's not to like?

ruking1

It would appear that she's on 18,000 mile per year ,... pace. I'm glad she likes it. Did she say how her 90,000 miles experiences on the TDI were?

To add to her like, I really like ours! I really wanted the no panoramic sunroof option. I'm also guessing she has the 19 or 20 in wheels.

I'm for a fix. I'm also for a fix, especially IF VW is on hiatus for TDI's.

GM Colorado TDI http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/colorado/2016/2016-chevrolet-colorado-z71-diesel-review-update-2/?ref=yfp

andres3

fintail said:

Excellent point. Same elephant in the room that exists with autonomous cars (and their lack of lawbreaking) - this new tech disrupts public sector revenue streams. Someone will have to compensate.

houdini1 said:

Think of the loss of gasoline taxes to gov. Might start charging EV drivers the equivalent in gas taxes.

On the ballot here in San Diego there were two Propositions or Measures adding up to a total of 14% in additional Hotel Tax to tourists and people travelling on business. I guess gouging unsuspecting tourists and travelers is the new local revenue stream of choice. The argument in favor was that other big City's like LA and SF were already doing it. If everyone does something, it kind of takes away the advantage of it.

ruking1

http://www.fodors.com/community/united-states/san-francisco-hotel-tax.cfm

Downtown San Francisco hotel tax is 16 % .

gagrice

ruking1 said:

It would appear that she's on 18,000 mile per year ,... pace. I'm glad she likes it. Did she say how her 90,000 miles experiences on the TDI Were

To add to her like, I really like ours! I really wanted the no panoramic sunroof option. I'm also guessing she has the 19 or 20 in wheels.

I'm for a fix. I'm slso for a fix especially IF VW is on hiatus for TDI's.

GM Colorado TDI http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/colorado/2016/2016-chevrolet-colorado-z71-diesel-review-update-2/?ref=yfp

We only talked a few minutes at the grocery store. She was parked next to us and I asked her how she liked her diesel Touareg. She lives up in the mountain East of San Diego, where diesels really shine. We agreed not having to look for a station every 300 miles was a big plus. When you are 30-60 miles East of downtown San Diego gas stations are few and expensive. It was her husband that insisted on NO Sun roof. I glanced at the wheels and would say she has the 20" which I thought only came on the Executive model. They looked like mine so may have been the 19". Though I have those larger Michelins that are not low profile.

gagrice

It looks like the San Diego voters are smarter than LA or SF. They have defeated the higher tax on tourist. If the Chargers leave good. Never that great of a team anyway. We don't need them for tourism. San Diego is the number one destination. We need to keep it affordable for families. Now that cheap diesel cars are going away.

Measure C, a $1.8 billion stadium funding bill on Tuesday's ballot in San Diego, appears destined to fail, pulling well less than the two-thirds margin required for passage.

Chargers owner Dean Spanos admitted that the measure had lost in an early-morning statement Wednesday.

The failure of Measure C, which would have increased hotel taxes and issued more than $1 billion in bonds to pay for a new Chargers' stadium in San Diego, likely means the Chargers will announce a move to Los Angeles in the coming weeks.

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/san-diego-chargers-stadium-vote-results-los-angeles-la-nfl-110916

ruking1

Even after 4.5 years, it's still hard for me to believe that it can go 15/16 days to refuel. (of 54 miles a day, 33 mpg)

“This isn’t just a GM issue,” he said. “The whole small car industry is suffering with the shift.”
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-gm-layoffs-20161109-story.html?ref=yfp
As it inexorably shifts to SUV/CUV's, the diesels advantage only makes more sense as GASSERS & gasser hybrids don't handle the truth as well!

..."Regulators recently found auto makers are on track to achieve roughly 50.8 mpg, or about 36 mpg in real-world driving."...

36 mpg real world is the new 50.8 mpg! The 2009 VW Jetta already then gets 56.44 mpg or 40 empg rea world!!

http://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-victory-unsettles-car-mileage-debate-1478693598?mod=whatnext&cx_navSource=cx_picks&cx_tag=contextual&cx_artPos=4#cxrecs_s

ruking1

gagrice said:

It looks like the San Diego voters are smarter than LA or SF. They have defeated the higher tax on tourist. If the Chargers leave good. Never that great of a team anyway. We don't need them for tourism. San Diego is the number one destination. We need to keep it affordable for families. Now that cheap diesel cars are going away.

Measure C, a $1.8 billion stadium funding bill on Tuesday's ballot in San Diego, appears destined to fail, pulling well less than the two-thirds margin required for passage.

Chargers owner Dean Spanos admitted that the measure had lost in an early-morning statement Wednesday.

The failure of Measure C, which would have increased hotel taxes and issued more than $1 billion in bonds to pay for a new Chargers' stadium in San Diego, likely means the Chargers will announce a move to Los Angeles in the coming weeks.

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/san-diego-chargers-stadium-vote-results-los-angeles-la-nfl-110916

The "San Francisco" 49ers are really/have been the SANTA CLARA 49ers !!! In fact, the training facilities have been in Santa Clara for a much longer time ! Indeed the Santa Clara, CA 49ers new stadium is close by, in Santa Clara, CA. San Francisco would/could not even present a competitive package to keep a NFL team, that they almost insist should bear the city of San Francisco 's name.

But then, the Santa Clara 49ers make news by becoming one of the acknowledged worst football teams. They, then pay a then first string, now 3rd string quarter back, 1 first string quarter back monies to back up a 2nd string qb doing the real job, making no where near what the 3rd stringer makes. The third string quarterback, not to be outdone tries to make social statements by kneeling during the playing of the national anthem, on national tv..

But, all is not lost. I guess I'll have to take the current Santa Clara profits to the (an uncle Warren's company) Wells Fargo Bank bank, in the TDI. Oh that's right, check deposits can be made by iPhone anymore, however tedious that can be.

(Steve is always around to haunt me! I probably shouldn't say that in print, Samsung was a long time client too.)

stever

Let me guess, was VW USA a client too?

ruking1

stever said:

Let me guess, was VW USA a client too?

No! But if VW wants to start a dialog...
But, I do have to say some years ago, our local VW GTG (get together) contingent, was hosted by VW @ the Stanford University grounds to see both the DARPA & "autonomous" Touareg (& TDI ) prototypes. The autonomous VW Touareg TDI eventually won the desert DARPA challenge. (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency.)

No trees on the Stanford University campus were harmed during this demonstration (pony rides) .

gagrice

I know none of you follow politics. I am wondering how our new President will handle different situations like Dieselgate? I see two countries are ready to renegotiate their trade agreements.

Ottawa (AFP) - Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said Thursday he is willing to renegotiate the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), which US President-elect Donald Trump has said he wants to change or scrap.

During the campaign, Trump called NAFTA the worst trade deal the United States has ever signed, while proposing protectionist measures to repatriate American jobs lost to free trade.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/canada-pm-trudeau-says-ready-renegotiate-nafta-trump-165713892.html

Canada and Mexico agreed Thursday to US President-elect Donald Trump's demand to have a fresh look at their tripartite 22-year-old free trade pact, fearing they could be shut out of the US market.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/mexico-says-ready-modernize-nafta-trump-181527988.html

ruking1

It's more than obvious to everybody but the Eco conservatives, that a strong car business is key & essential to a county's economy. Yet the first order of Eco conservatives seems to be to get crafted regulations designed to increase both costs & prices: so only giant companies can compete & fewer parts of the population can afford to buy.

It will be a very sad day, if US regulators are successful in putting a German but # 1 or 2 world car maker on life-support !

xwesx

As sad as it is, free trade is critical to maintain competition. If we closed our borders tomorrow and forced everyone to buy their diesels as "100% American," we (consumers) would be in a world of hurt as far as paying the price! Competition is already pretty small on the world stage; domestically, it is dwindling rapidly. So, sure, look at revisions to improve, but please keep thy head out of thy shell!

Not only am I interested in expansion (re-establishment?) of diesel vehicle selection, but I would also, very much, like to be able to "affford" at least a few options that are out there.

houdini1

gagrice said:

I know none of you follow politics. I am wondering how our new President will handle different situations like Dieselgate? I see two countries are ready to renegotiate their trade agreements.

Ottawa (AFP) - Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said Thursday he is willing to renegotiate the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), which US President-elect Donald Trump has said he wants to change or scrap.

During the campaign, Trump called NAFTA the worst trade deal the United States has ever signed, while proposing protectionist measures to repatriate American jobs lost to free trade.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/canada-pm-trudeau-says-ready-renegotiate-nafta-trump-165713892.html

Canada and Mexico agreed Thursday to US President-elect Donald Trump's demand to have a fresh look at their tripartite 22-year-old free trade pact, fearing they could be shut out of the US market.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/mexico-says-ready-modernize-nafta-trump-181527988.html

Maybe he will allow VW to calculate how much money they have saved the citizens of the U.S. over the years by using diesel instead of gasahol, and deduct that amount from whatever fine might be imposed.

ruking1

The data has always been hidden in VERY plain sight. Our PVF (with 95/97% gasoline) ihas been, is, will remain designed to use WAY more (oil) gasoline than say a "similar" sized PVF: like the EU PVF. In fact, this has been true for generations! Again, the driver has been true since JDR, the 19 gals gasoline / 13 gals diesel per barrel of oil RATIO!

Nobody to very few people have taking the time to even just take a close look at the MB GLK 350, 22 mpg/ 250 BT 36 mpg, ( 18,000 miles yearly, oil, gasoline- 818 gal ULSD 500 gal. . (the functional equivalent of counting ones' fingers and toes to get to 20) Getting rid of TDI's will cause even more oil & gasoline to hit the markets! The switch to EV will only strengthen CLEAN COAL & CLEAN NUCLEAR .

Various articles that I've read put 24.8 mpg as the (2014) "current" US PVF average. Anybody has what they need to run their own numbers. As of 2014 274.8 M were in the PVF.

houdini1

Stever, will that Keystone pipeline be coming thru your back yard?

ruking1

houdini1 said:

Stever, will that Keystone pipeline be coming thru your back yard?

It would be better to run that pipeline to CANADIAN ports (east/west) for exportation! Or NOT!! ?? The Canadian government really has a lot of options. The Canadian oil sands has been known since 1715 or so.(301 years. Why they didn't want to be a more prolific oil producer than Saudi Arabia will make an interesting story.
http://www.cnbc.com/2013/11/04/canadian-oil-rides-south-even-without-keystone-pipeline.html
I mean we really have to be stupid not to complete a pipeline. The last I checked, the Canadians do NOT hate the US.

It is been demonstrated time and time again that people do not like uncle Warren's "rolling market sensitive" pipeline. A pipeline is inherently safer! Whether that's good, bad or indifferent is not the purpose of the discussion. Defacto & without further adieu, the "rolling pipeline remains a HUGE profit area.

Be that as it may, NON sulfur diesel (gasoline, etc) can be chemically/molecularly " MADE" @ a POS!! The POS just needs access to the correct chemicals & natural gas. This is HUGE ! It is radical! It is an absolute game changer!!
http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Natural-gas-to-1-gasoline-5701521.php

Michaell

houdini1 said:

Stever, will that Keystone pipeline be coming thru your back yard?

Doesn't look like it:

https://thebottomline.as.ucsb.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/keystone.pipeline.route_.jpg

ruking1

This article might explain why the Keystone pipeline MAY be DOA? Uncle Warrens turf? https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2016-11-11/berkshire-hathaway-bnsf-railroad-deal-shines-bright-in-hindsight?ref=yfp

stever

There's probably something around here - if you start hunting you'll find all kinds of pipelines buried around you. Our first Boise house backed to a main natural gas line going to downtown down the alley and there was an emergency relief vent near our garage. After talking a friend who was a right of way attorney for a pipeline company in Houston, I called the gas company and got them to put some bollards around it so the garbage trucks couldn't take it out so easily.

Down in south Mississippi, my dairy farmer uncle had a gasoline pipeline cutting across one of his pastures. It leaked off and on for several years before they finally fixed it for good - that would have been in the 80s sometime.

Ah, here we go - found a hazardous liquid pipeline within a half mile of my house. It leaked jet fuel back in '06 about 10 miles south of here, just across the TX/NM state line. NPMS link.

gagrice

Tar sands is a dirty word to Environmentalist. Last I checked Norway's immense wealth holds a sizable share of the Tar Sands. I think the US has the only refineries that can handle that thick stuff. May Be one in Eastern Canada also. Trudeau would like to shut it off. Not sure Alberta would go along with it. He would probably have Albrexit facing him.

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2011/12/theres-no-hiding-tar-sands-oil

houdini1

ruking1 said:

This article might explain why the Keystone pipeline MAY be DOA? Uncle Warrens turf? https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2016-11-11/berkshire-hathaway-bnsf-railroad-deal-shines-bright-in-hindsight?ref=yfp

It is true that "Uncle Warren" has had a sweet deal hauling oil for the last few years. He has also been a big backer of the current admin. and that was what stopped Keystone. I have a feeling that those days are over, but I am sure that Buffet has contingency plans.

ruking1

I'm scratching my head on that one for "mobil pipelines" : Yes, short would be like 40 years! WB would be 127 years old by then. Don't forget that railroad right-of-way's are as close to owning the land in perpetuity as any other entity !!!

1. REMAINS a major way to JIT (crude) markets in lieu of ANY old/new pipelines.
2. All 50 major customers each spent billions of dollars to reconfigure for Tar Sands. There are approximately 139 to 148 oil refineries in the United States http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pnp_cap1_dcu_nus_a.htm
2. all pipelines face significant legal & environmental challenges, even if Trump grants "first 100 days approval", to last 100 days, even though Uncle Warren implied Trump's a disaster
3. "Uncle Warren" is fast getting up there" so IF Trump is wildly successful Buffet benefits
4. Berkshire Hathaway has a reputation for holdings that approach "forever"
5. they have only held them 7 years.
6. The assets are nowhere near the forward sales prices they had in mind when purchased
7. Any capital gains sales will trigger massive taxation, even under Trump's plan
8. They've "only"made $22 billion in dividends
9. Dividends of that magnitude (3.14 B yr) probably have highly complex IRS tax advantages, also & also
10. The prices paid for the assets was the highest for any asset paid to date.

So just by articles analysts estimates alone, the whole system is gear for far more barrels of oil that now! Again 60% diesels will cut oil demand as a minimum by half! Perhaps that is really the problem !?

In case folk haven't figured it by now, (one last shot) one estimate ca be got from FARS data total miles/avg mpg (24.8)

ruking1

gagrice said:

Tar sands is a dirty word to Environmentalist. Last I checked Norway's immense wealth holds a sizable share of the Tar Sands. I think the US has the only refineries that can handle that thick stuff. May Be one in Eastern Canada also. Trudeau would like to shut it off. Not sure Alberta would go along with it. He would probably have Albrexit facing him.

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2011/12/theres-no-hiding-tar-sands-oil

LOL! Norway has put themselves in many real pickles. Here are a few. It's a highly "socialists type" country. Taxation is through the roof. They are almost singularly dependent on natural mineral/oil exports. They have no foreseeable substitutes. They see themselves as environmentalists while being wildly dependent on oil. They vilify others, like ... USA! http://www.wsj.com/articles/norway-sovereign-wealth-fund-to-no-longer-invest-in-duke-energy-1473271601?mod=whatnext&cx_navSource=cx_picks&cx_tag=contextual&cx_artPos=2#cxrecs_s

They will not to never admit to that.

To finish up the above posts thought, why would WB buy a railroad with static or declining freight loads??
http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspxd

gagrice

I think that GreenPeace has their work cut out for them. Weening Norway from Oil production will not happen in our lifetime.

Statoil was once known as an environmentally responsible oil company. But the 2007 acquisition of the tar sands leases in Canada for 12 billion NOK has changed this image.

http://www.greenpeace.org/norway/no/kampanjer/tjaresand/Statoil-and-the-tar-sands-in-Canada-/

The Norwegian economy, once one of Europe's brightest, ground to a halt in late 2015, leaving full-year growth at its lowest in six years and consumer confidence at its lowest in 24 years, strengthening the case for central bank rate cuts.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-norway-economy-idUKKCN0VP1LZ

stever

Follow up on the second VW cheat:

VW, Audi Confirm Investigation Into Carbon Dioxide Levels in Some Audi Cars (WSJ - may be a registration link).

ruking1

Toyota dinged for $3.4 B. 1.5 M trucks $15,090 per unit? http://www.wsj.com/articles/toyota-in-3-4-billion-settlement-over-corrosion-in-some-trucks-and-suvs-1478972740

Is an interesting title wave coming enough to cover up Exxon-Mobil? http://finance.yahoo.com/news/exxonmobil-digging-own-grave-150000943.html

stever

Nothing to do with diesels? Or were they imitating Canadians and putting (diesel) oil on the underbody to prevent rust?

ruking1

Enough for me to forego Toyota & Honda cars!?