What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

gagrice

slorenzen said:

"This new powerplant, the Mercedes-Benz OM 654, provides 13 percent lower fuel consumption and CO2 emissions, while gaining 24 hp over its predecessor, the OM 651. The OM 654 is the first four-cylinder diesel in a new family of engines Mercedes says is “future-proof.”

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/mercedes-benz’s-new-ground-breaking-diesel-the-om-654/ar-AAkqIuI?ocid=U145DHP#image=1

As pointed out the new MB diesel has about 75 ft lbs less torque. It also is cleaner than the 2.1L twin turbo. Being single Turbo, it should be more than enough for most drivers. The big question? Will MB put that engine in the GLE?

As of today, I will probably just keep my Touareg TDI a few more years. Unless I leave CA.

fintail

It might be good in a C diesel, if we ever get one. I think weight might end up being an enemy in larger vehicles. The torque worries me though, the effortless waftability of that engine is a key reason it is so good.

ruking1

gagrice said:

slorenzen said:

"This new powerplant, the Mercedes-Benz OM 654, provides 13 percent lower fuel consumption and CO2 emissions, while gaining 24 hp over its predecessor, the OM 651. The OM 654 is the first four-cylinder diesel in a new family of engines Mercedes says is “future-proof.”

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/mercedes-benz’s-new-ground-breaking-diesel-the-om-654/ar-AAkqIuI?ocid=U145DHP#image=1

As pointed out the new MB diesel has about 75 ft #'s less torque. It also is cleaner than the 2.1L twin turbo. Being single Turbo, it should be more than enough for most drivers. The big question? Will MB put that engine in the GLE?

As of today, I will probably just keep my Touareg TDI a few more years. Unless I leave CA.

I'm guessing 3 things:

1. most likely the 6 cylinder will get the job, its stepped up bro/sis in modularity.
2. Higher % 6 cylinder sales.
3. The 6 cylinder also benefits from the 13% decrease fuel consumption

To Fintail's post,

as indicated, power to weight ratios can/does rule perceptions.75 # ft of torque +/- is HUGE in GASSERS! But & So.... I'm guessing a gasser drivers (perception issue) stepping over to (like model) diesel, will love (the then huge) jump in torque.

ruking1

Let's see, VW makes 1.6 cents profit on $1.00 (USD) of revenue. This representative speaks for major ownership & represents huge majorities of majorities of COST centers & he can say with a straight face: he told one so, from decades back, so offering 1/100 th to or less of cents in savings?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmitt/2016/11/21/volkswagen-labor-leader-attacks-porschepiech-shareholder-clan/?ref=yfp#2e6abd3c20a3

So Toyota et al, are "ripping" VW apart, app 5.8 x. in profit etc., etc. No wonder VW's are a screaming buy, with or without diesels!

A warrior from the past @ 289,000 miles or ...so!

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/11/21/junkyard-gem-1982-mercedes-benz-240d/?ref=yfp

houdini1

ruking1 said:

Let's see, VW makes 1.6 cents profit on $1.00 (USD) of revenue. This representative speaks for major ownership & represents huge majorities of majorities of COST centers & he can say with a straight face: he told one so, from decades back, so offering 1/100 th to or less of cents in savings?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmitt/2016/11/21/volkswagen-labor-leader-attacks-porschepiech-shareholder-clan/?ref=yfp#2e6abd3c20a3

So Toyota et al, are "ripping" VW apart, app 5.8 x. in profit etc., etc. No wonder VW's are a screaming buy, with or without diesels!

A warrior from the past @ 289,000 miles or ...so!

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/11/21/junkyard-gem-1982-mercedes-benz-240d/?ref=yfp

Brings back fond memories. Mine was red/saddle tex. Nary a squeak or rattle, quite unlike other cars of that day. Mine was a '78, 2 years old when I bought it for $8,000.

fintail

That was a really good price even then.

It very well might still be on the road today.

houdini1 said:

Brings back fond memories. Mine was red/saddle tex. Nary a squeak or rattle, quite unlike other cars of that day. Mine was a '78, 2 years old when I bought it for $8,000.

Michaell

houdini1 said:

ruking1 said:

Let's see, VW makes 1.6 cents profit on $1.00 (USD) of revenue. This representative speaks for major ownership & represents huge majorities of majorities of COST centers & he can say with a straight face: he told one so, from decades back, so offering 1/100 th to or less of cents in savings?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmitt/2016/11/21/volkswagen-labor-leader-attacks-porschepiech-shareholder-clan/?ref=yfp#2e6abd3c20a3

So Toyota et al, are "ripping" VW apart, app 5.8 x. in profit etc., etc. No wonder VW's are a screaming buy, with or without diesels!

A warrior from the past @ 289,000 miles or ...so!

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/11/21/junkyard-gem-1982-mercedes-benz-240d/?ref=yfp

Brings back fond memories. Mine was red/saddle tex. Nary a squeak or rattle, quite unlike other cars of that day. Mine was a '78, 2 years old when I bought it for $8,000.

My folks owned a '72 220D when I was in HS (1980-ish). Can't remember what they paid for it, but I do remember it needed an engine rebuild almost immediately after bringing it home. Ours was more of an orangey-red color with the saddle MB Tex interior.

My mom hated that car - having to wait for the glow plugs every time you wanted to start it was aggravating to her.

65HP in a car that size made for some interesting times on the highway. And, it had the stiffest throttle spring I've ever encountered. No cruise; the family took it on vacation from our home in SoCal to Sacramento, and my foot got tired holding the throttle pedal down on I-5.

I got the vanity plate "REAL SLO" for it.

houdini1

Funny thing was, it was my first diesel, but I didn't buy it because it was a diesel. I just drove it, liked it, and thought the price was right. A friend of mine had two of them and wanted to sell one . Back then I probably would have bought the gasoline version if I had a choice, but they were very scarce. It turned out to be an excellent automobile. Fine around town and really good on the road once you got up to speed. I sold it for about what I paid for it after 2 years when I got a company car.

fintail

There was only one gasoline W123 model sold in the US, the 280E - and it was only sold for a few years. The diesels were much more common. That platform was built like a vault and made with a virtually infinite service life, so long as you carried out maintenance by the book, and replaced consumables as they wore out. It's the legend used as a basis for modern diesel passenger cars.

houdini1

Couldn't agree more.

ruking1

It's becoming apparent that unless one has a particularly bad vehicle from say the lower two standard deviation's, just minimum amounts of maintenance are really all the (any) car needs to hit 2 major tune ups worth of miles (200,000 to 300,000 miles).

Most folks, however play that game: how long can one ignore the car before catastophic break downs. Of course, one needs to foist the breakdowns on the car, whether true or not.!

There are of course TMI's for almost every car. Another truth, most folks get bored after a certain amount of time & /or miles. .

Here are three examples that will go along way in keeping a vehicle going:

1. Garaged
2. Clean
3. Battery charger hooked up or on some schedule

Advantage diesel!

Counterpoint
http://www.businessinsider.com/old-cars-in-auto-market-keep-a-sales-boom-alive-2016-11?ref=yfp

VW EU "diesel gate " news! http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-conversation-global/why-its-so-hard-for-europ_b_13144684.html?ref=yfp

Is VW leaving the US diesel market? http://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-withdraw-u-diesel-market-handelsblatt-193519239--finance.html

gagrice

Audi will have to come up with a better looking diesel than the Q7 to keep me in the VW camp. If we are forced into a buy back on the Touareg TDI, I will be test driving all available diesel SUVs and Vans. My Brother in Law went and looked at the Jag F-Pace and really liked it. Only one owner posting on the EPA site claims 37.8 MPG, which is very respectable. Small 15.9 gallon tank limits long range travel. Love my 26 gallon tank.

All that said, I think VW is foolish to abandon 25% of their loyal buyers. Even if they are great at towing trailers.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/zGhqug03C4Q?rel=0&showinfo=0

ruking1

I'm thinking the American farming & ranching & " horsey doo pher" set has a large, but American V8 diesel component. I know that some of these rigs approach $65,000.

Yes, I would agree. So I can only guess the VW TDI (20%) component made less than 1.6 cents per $ 1.00 USD of revenue!

I'm hoping VW TDI's will again hit the US markets in the future. Till then, the 2009 has to be one of the best new car deals (cpmd: depreciation) I've ever had!

@ 94% ($5,100,$1,000,$1,300) over KBB (= $ 7,875)

(in my case, with no approved fix)

Michaell

Looks like VW is abandoning the diesel market in the US:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/11/vw-ditches-diesel-tech/#more-1458050

stever

I think they'll be fine even if diesels were 25% of their sales here. VW sales are up almost 10% comparing this October to October 2015. (Yahoo)

Gas is cheap and more "greens" are going to be wondering about how clean the battery manufacturing is, so VW is probably better off licensing any EV tech they may need down the road and just focus on getting some more SUVs on the US roads. Gas is cheap and SUVs is where the money is.

fintail

Do greenies really care about battery manufacturing? Around Seattle, the smug emissions from Prius and Tesla make my fintail's exhaust look like that from a bicycle.

I guess it's going to be up to MB, BMW, and GM to keep diesel passenger cars going. Some buyers prefer those to taller rigs.

stever

That's like asking if all Dems/Reps/Indys care about [free trade/health care/Social Security/base closings/insert your favorite issue here]. Internecine warfare is alive and well in all camps.

When oil was discovered in Prudhoe Bay, the Greens were split - many thought a few holes in the ground was a lot better way to fund government than encouraging droves of tourids or mining coal or harvesting trees. Same argument goes on with the nuke crowd.

fintail

I thought the greenie thought was "pollution is OK as long as NIMBY" (and "for thee not me")

Or is that Greens politically rather than emotionally? I am surprised I haven't received the stinkeye or whine from a Prius or Leaf driver, but maybe they aren't attentive enough to notice.

stevedebi

Well, we went to the LA Auto show, and the wife chose her car. We now own a 2017 Subaru Outback. Wonderful car, and they gave us a great price and 1.9 APR. She is thrilled, but now she spends her drive trying to get it past 30 MPG rather than getting the Passat TDI past 40 MPG. LOL.

Thanks for everyone who replied to my posts.

We still have the TDI. Hopefully VW will buy it back before our first payment next year. But we decided to take the chance.

kyfdx

Congrats!

ruking1

I hope you both enjoy the new car! Let us know how you like it, in comparison!

I don't know your miles per yr. But using 18,000 miles per year, (mine) that's 600 gals RUG /450 gals ULSD. 33.3 % more.

Michaell

stevedebi said:

Well, we went to the LA Auto show, and the wife chose her car. We now own a 2017 Subaru Outback. Wonderful car, and they gave us a great price and 1.9 APR. She is thrilled, but now she spends her drive trying to get it past 30 MPG rather than getting the Passat TDI past 40 MPG. LOL.

Thanks for everyone who replied to my posts.

We still have the TDI. Hopefully VW will buy it back before our first payment next year. But we decided to take the chance.

Congrats! What trim level did you get?

ruking1

It's a slow diesel news day! Happy Thanksgiving !

Costco, Folsom, CA: $2.35 ULSD,

$2.19 RUG, $2.45 PUG

..."Over the continental United States, prices range from a low of $1.88 in Houston TX (where prices are traditionally the lowest in the country) to $2.76 in Los Angeles (where they are usually high)."...
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/near-record-low-gas-prices-230000909.html

gagrice

stevedebi said:

Well, we went to the LA Auto show, and the wife chose her car. We now own a 2017 Subaru Outback. Wonderful car, and they gave us a great price and 1.9 APR. She is thrilled, but now she spends her drive trying to get it past 30 MPG rather than getting the Passat TDI past 40 MPG. LOL.

Thanks for everyone who replied to my posts.

We still have the TDI. Hopefully VW will buy it back before our first payment next year. But we decided to take the chance.

If we have to sell our Touareg TDI back to VW AND we move to Hilo HI, I would look hard at the Subarus. Both the Outback and Forester. Diesel is expensive on the Big Island, and dealers for German SUVs scarce. RUG $2.69, Diesel $3.99. Kind of takes the edge off the diesel advantage. Not to mention no place to go where cruising at 70+ MPH is allowed. Very strict on their 55 MPH. That a total 230 miles around the Island makes long range diesel not so important.

ruking1

Is 2017 a good time to buy a new car (17.4 M), but especially a used car (38.3 M) buyer? http://www.businessinsider.com/us-car-sales-begin-to-drop-2016-11?ref=yfp

In the meantime, Mercedes is taking a wait-and-see attitude, past 2017. http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/mercedes-benz-considers-dropping-us-diesels/?ref=yfp

So under "alternative" fuel", 97 to 95% of PVF use 10% ethanol."The diesel niche market" is @ 3% to 5%. It will either remain robust or in slower growth mode. The EV PVF is not even measurable @ less than .05%.

I'm sure the Hawaii car rental companies have an interesting inventory, ready to move.

ruking1

209 miles up to South Lake Tahoe CA , 36.5 mpg for the tank, onboard computer. There were a few chokepoints, where traffic was very slow. Otherwise, normal amount of traffic

stevedebi

Michaell said:

stevedebi said:

Well, we went to the LA Auto show, and the wife chose her car. We now own a 2017 Subaru Outback. Wonderful car, and they gave us a great price and 1.9 APR. She is thrilled, but now she spends her drive trying to get it past 30 MPG rather than getting the Passat TDI past 40 MPG. LOL.

Thanks for everyone who replied to my posts.

We still have the TDI. Hopefully VW will buy it back before our first payment next year. But we decided to take the chance.

Congrats! What trim level did you get?

Premium, but with the EyeSight package added on. It has just about eveything we want except keyless entry, and that requres the Touring.

stever

Sounds like EyeSight is the best safety package available right now. Congrats!

gagrice

stever said:

Sounds like EyeSight is the best safety package available right now. Congrats!

I don't think I would like that feature. I forget to turn off the auto wipers and watch in panic as they swish away going through the car wash. I am not ready for any autopilot features on my vehicle. Even ABS can be a big pain.

EyeSight® is a driver assist system which may not operate optimally under all driving conditions. The driver is always responsible for safe and attentive driving. System effectiveness depends on many factors such as vehicle maintenance, and weather and road conditions. See Owner’s Manual for complete details on system operation and limitations. Please remember to turn off EyeSight when going through a car wash.

stever

lol, the last time I went through a car wash was in Anchorage in my Tercel. I had worked one weekend and parked in an alley, and some yahoos were spray painting a building. After I yelled at them for getting spray on my car, they gave me $5 and I washed it down at the car wash out by the Spenard La Mex.

Irritated me because I had to take the roof racks off. That was probably 1995 or so.

One shop in Boise washed my van as a courtesy after doing a sensor repair. The driver's side mirror fell off in that one (someone smashed it in Venice CA and I had epoxied it back together). Best to avoid those mechanical monsters.

I just ordered new glasses, some more photograys and this time I got a pair of clear lenses for night driving. You know how you can be cruising along a highway and spot a deer on the shoulder just after you pass it?

That happened to me a couple of weeks ago on a 40mph surface street. Only this time it was a pedestrian with dark clothing on. If my wife had not yelled at me to move over, I may never known he was so close to the white line. I pulled over and made her drive the rest of that evening.

Don't know if EyeSight is doing that yet, but I'd like the extra help.

stever

Sorry for the diversion (maybe car washes are powered by diesel generators and that's why they don't like me).

Back to diesels, you may have a chance to save some bucks on a Cayenne. There's about 1,500 one year old ones sitting at dealers waiting for the 3.0l fix and when they get fixed, they'll be sold as used cars.

What's happens to Porsche's parked diesels? (autonews.com)

fintail

I loved going to the MB dealer owned car wash and seeing the workers hurry to the cars when the auto wipers would start going, and the drivers who were mysteriously able to afford such a car but can't figure out how to disable a simple function, had to be rescued and helped out. These are also the same people holding a phone to their ear when their car has factory bluetooth.

I've never had an issue with auto wipers or ABS. I wish there could be an intergated dashcam, or at least a mount with hardwired power.

stevedebi

gagrice said:

stever said:

Sounds like EyeSight is the best safety package available right now. Congrats!

I don't think I would like that feature. I forget to turn off the auto wipers and watch in panic as they swish away going through the car wash. I am not ready for any autopilot features on my vehicle. Even ABS can be a big pain.

EyeSight® is a driver assist system which may not operate optimally under all driving conditions. The driver is always responsible for safe and attentive driving. System effectiveness depends on many factors such as vehicle maintenance, and weather and road conditions. See Owner’s Manual for complete details on system operation and limitations. Please remember to turn off EyeSight when going through a car wash.

Well, hey, if you don't like it you can save a couple grand and get one without the system.

The wife loves it.

The most obtrusive feature is the lane keeping, which actually steers the car between lanes. That one has to be manually turned on. The wife hasn't even tried that one, although it might be nice on long interstate drives. The other features turn off with a switch, and the switch is remembered after shutting the car down.

Here what else it does:

Each side mirror has a yellow icon that lights up if there is a car to that side. This is amazingly valuable in traffic.

The adaptive cruise control maintains a set distance from the car in front - and it is speed sensitive, so at highways speeds it increases the distance (for example).

The lane minder sounds a beep if you drift out of your lane without the blinkers on. The sound can be customized louder or softer.

It has pedestrian auto stop, and will auto brake if if detects you are not stopping for a vehicle in front of you.

Rear warning of vehicles off to the side when backing up (in addition to the backup camera).

ruking1

Yeah, The short version: 1. a waste of money, 2. costs too much to fix, on inevitable break down, 3. little, if any residual value. Yes it's apparent cars are being computerized! Indeed that computerization was the way VW got the "diesel-gate, with the 18 B loss.

I think most of the "systems" CAN give one false senses of securities! (Single to layered) Again no statistical studies. No discounts . Each needs procedural learning curves & how they relate in the bigger picture. My wife is a TOTAL techie & multi-tasker. Yet when I ask her to do things idriving n the MB GLK 250 BT, even she says it's distracting & not safe. It makes me laugh, because I am also out of fighters and bombers, etc., where ADD can be an asset.

I remember when ABS was first coming online, the insurance company gave a discount.: save lives, mudderhood, flag, apple pie, yada, yada, yada. After about the fourth year of gathering data, in a very small blurb, the insurance company said : data did NOT support the continued discount for ABS. How many people can really say that they've gotten in situations where it saved ones life! For me, I only function it I want to demonstrate to myself that it actually still works . The long story short and over 1 M miles, I have yet to use it.

Takata airbags are another example of how the rush to safety has come back to bite us in the butt. Tall hat, NO cattle! There seems to be no real data on how many people it has actually saved statistically, as opposed to how many people it's killed. There are no real discounts for airbags. Or perhaps I should say that my insurance company has never given any. The reasons should be obvious, no statistical correlation.

This is Harley motorcycle related, but I remember almost killing a hog Harley motorcycle rider (full HA colors) with a passenger because the pipes were so loud that the rider didn't hear me coming up alongside of him, as the rider was trying to change lanes into my passenger door. He didn't even hear me standing on my horn. So why does the greater board think he would have been paying attention to Lane software? Either way, no statistical correlation.

stever

Maybe you're too old.

"Reimer cites antilock brakes (ABS) as an example. He says older adults still have their conception of hard braking, which is to pump the brakes. Younger adults drive faster with ABS because they can stop faster. "Teens need to learn the limitations in a much better, more functional way and older drivers need to learn what they can benefit from." Reimer suggests more driver training and maybe a refresher course every 5-10 years."

Vehicle technology can help save lives, if drivers know how to use it (consumerreports.org)

ruking1

Yes but no! I think I stated clearly I know how they both function & how to use them !? The best way to travel fast is not to put ones self in the kinds of situations where one needs ABS to save one from poor calculations, i.e., 100 ft stop with a 109 ft stopping reality. I've always (might be an exaggeration, so more like 55 + years) thought speed limits were far too low . Long kept statistics have basically verified that has been true and for a long time.

houdini1

I remember reading somewhere that the MB GLC Diesel would be released in U.S. late in 2017. It is getting pretty late, has this timing changed?

ruking1

There is no dealer (NorCA) word as of last week with internet manager, where the GLK 250 BT was bought.

Michaell

houdini1 said:

I remember reading somewhere that the MB GLC Diesel would be released in U.S. late in 2017. It is getting pretty late, has this timing changed?

I think MB has suspended the release of any diesels for the time being.

fintail

I know some time ago the sales manager at the local dealer told me C diesel orders had been canceled. I translated this into meaning all diesels were at best on indefinite hold. I've read nothing on the various MB forums with upcoming diesel dates.

Regarding ABS/airbags, I wouldn't buy a new car without them. I have an old car without such tech - it only has lap belts, so I am not exactly a fraidy cat, but they do more good than harm.

ruking1

There are not many new cars one CAN buy sans the ABS &/or normal complement of air bags.

gagrice

stever said:

Maybe you're too old.

"Reimer cites antilock brakes (ABS) as an example. He says older adults still have their conception of hard braking, which is to pump the brakes. Younger adults drive faster with ABS because they can stop faster. "Teens need to learn the limitations in a much better, more functional way and older drivers need to learn what they can benefit from." Reimer suggests more driver training and maybe a refresher course every 5-10 years."

Vehicle technology can help save lives, if drivers know how to use it (consumerreports.org)

Our truck brakes would lock up and slide on gravel, ice and snow. ABS is hazardous and least when they first came out in the 1990s. We had an S10 Blazer with ABS that the front brakes were always locking up. I don't know what all my Touareg has, it does not do any weird things when I am driving. May have just been early ABS. Can't say I have had any problem with vehicles on pavement.

fintail

I think ABS and airbag have been mandated for some time in NA, airbag maybe on everything for the past 20 years, probably close to that for airbag.

You could get a MB with drivers airbag and ABS as early as 1980.

ruking1

Outside of functioning the 12 Touareg's ABS (on road) to see what it felt like, surprising on a very slow off road path, the ABS went off. It was a complete mystery to me why.

Here is why a small % (1.6% of 32%) used diesels might be very good buys! http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/11/27/record-number-car-buyers-upside-down-trade-ins/94506786/?ref=yfp

gagrice

ruking1 said:

Outside of functioning the 12 Touareg's ABS (on road) to see what it felt like, surprising on a very slow off road path, the ABS went off. It was a complete mystery to me why.

Here is why a small % (1.6% of 32%) used diesels might be very good buys! http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/11/27/record-number-car-buyers-upside-down-trade-ins/94506786/?ref=yfp

I have said that for the last 5 years. SubPrime auto loans would soon come back to bite US in the behind. Not a big deal if you were smart enough to buy a high resale value diesel.

ruking1

[non-permissible content removed]

I'm not too concerned about the VW diesels dropping out for a little while. Whether they come back or not is a different story. Should that time return, I don't think 25% TDI's of the total sales will be the goal.

In the meantime, a lot of screaming opportunities are coming! Here's one: 1500 newish used Porsche Cayennes?
!https://www.yahoo.com/news/may-soon-able-buy-brand-195442705.html

ruking1

We had a slow diesel news weekend !

$ 2.41 ULSD, Costco, Folsom, CA . RUG $2.19/PUG $2.45

Geez, I think it's the hot dog/ drink combo & clean girls room.

The last two tanks fills (27.15 gals, 1,019 miles) posted about 37.5 MPG. (should had been 36 mpg)

I guess we ignored the TP for too long, so the lights in the dashboard had an extreme hissy fit. You would have thought Scotty was calling from the engine room with: you D/S, it's going to blow!

Nothing my tire shop could not fix in three minutes or less. But we diy'd with the home TP unit.

I'm purely guessing, but if we had the normal 3 PSI about placard, the mpg would be better.

The wife got 41.4 MPG on the Interstate (150 miles or so) where I normally negate the down grade (49+) mpg .... well, you all know the drill here.

We watched about a 10 to 15 in over night snow dump ! I'm sure the higher elevations (9,500 ft) got a lot more.
This must be Subaru land. I saw absolute boatloads !

Life is grand!

ruking1

Yippee! lower oil prices! http://www.wsj.com/articles/opec-discord-sends-oil-prices-lower-1480394173

http://money.cnn.com/2016/11/28/investing/opec-meeting-oil-prices-saudi-iran/?ref=yfp

The leading tower of San Francisco, is this proof positive global warming is true ? https://www.yahoo.com/news/leaning-san-francisco-tower-seen-sinking-space-001653608.html

ruking1

Got milk? You all will be buying surgically affixed beltch, dung, & methane processors, if CARB has its way? http://www.seattletimes.com/business/california-targets-dairy-cows-to-combat-global-warming/?ref=yfp

Or the predictable rise in dairy & beef prices?

fintail

Oh greenie weenies, their inanity (and hypocrisy) knows no bounds.