What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

fintail

My E250 weighs ~4200 lbs. I think that's a good weight for diesel efficiency, and I wonder about how new miracle gasoline engines would haul such mass. Especially now that V8s in non-tuned models are becoming less common, they seem to be a good alternative Of course, these heavy premium cars are a small market niche to begin with, and probably haven't passed 10% diesel take rate in 30 years/

Aren't the "fixed" diesels selling out?

Mr_Shiftright said:

No, more like SUVs, pickup trucks, commercial "light" vans and trucks, that sort of thing. I think diesels in sedans or hatchbacks are dead, dead, dead.

You have to keep in mind the "psychology" of diesels in the American mind. It associates diesels with power, ruggedness, hard work, towing much more than penny-pinching economy. This is a different attitude than the European driver might have when thinking about diesel power.

VW had the opportunity to break this cultural barrier and they blew it, and I don't think they'll get a second chance at it.

Everybody who wants a diesel sedan or hatch already has one, or just got rid of one. The market is totally stagnant.

Mr_Shiftright

I think the "fixed" diesels are just swapping one set of owners for an equal number. I don't think they are expanding the market at all. My two friends who "sold out" really like their VWs, but were very leery of having some hodge-podge fix done to them. And besides, the buy-back offer was quite generous.

gagrice

Just pulled the websites of all the VW dealers in San Diego area. Not a Touareg TDI in the bunch. Cars.com shows those dealers all having them. Guess they sold them.

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think the "fixed" diesels are just swapping one set of owners for an equal number. I don't think they are expanding the market at all. My two friends who "sold out" really like their VWs, but were very leery of having some hodge-podge fix done to them. And besides, the buy-back offer was quite generous.

Of course, they (500,000/500,000) are NOT expanding the "past" market/s!? Nobody has made THAT claim!? Why are you? But the 500,000 (eventual) resales does keep the markets from shrinking.

But if one liked/likes the/a buyback model, it's a good opportunity to re buy at reduced prices. The deals can be sweeter with close to zero down & % !

Now what the keep & buyback rates will be are anyone's guess.

fintail

I have read multiple accounts of these vehicles selling out. Are all old owners buying back their old cars, or is their other demand? If the car has a good warranty, I wouldn't worry too much about the fix, especially if it is really just a software issue. I believe there is demand out there. The question is whether or not the demand is worth the marketing and distribution costs.

It'd be most amusing if those who were shedding crocodile tears about VW betraying the green image went and bought back the cars.

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think the "fixed" diesels are just swapping one set of owners for an equal number. I don't think they are expanding the market at all. My two friends who "sold out" really like their VWs, but were very leery of having some hodge-podge fix done to them. And besides, the buy-back offer was quite generous.

ruking1

I've already contacted the VW sales person who sold me the 2012 VW Touareg TDI new. He's on the (longer term) hunt for the 2012 when/if it/they hit/s the market after it's approved fix. Till then, the other model years will have to do.

gagrice

ruking1 said:

I've already contacted the VW sales person who sold me the 2012 VW Touareg TDI. He's on the hunt for the 2012 when if it hits the market after it's approved fix. Till then, the other model years will have to do.

I was thinking, you and others on Fuelly seem to get better mileage with the Gen 1 Touareg TDI than the 2013 and later Gen2 TDI. I always thought they were the same engine until dieselgate. I am wondering if they will try to fix the Gen1 Touaregs? The only ones listed are the 2016 MY from what I can find. Of the 2.0L TDIs only 2015-16 seem to be listed for sale. Be nice to know what is going on with the Gen 2 Touareg TDI.

ruking1

Yes, the gen1 MY still does NOT have the approved fix.

While the lower mpg is a nit, lower still mpg right now (diff gen & after fix) without knowing the future figures are not deal breakers.

There is no doubt in my mind the aftermarket will provide.

andres3

fintail said:

I have read multiple accounts of these vehicles selling out. Are all old owners buying back their old cars, or is their other demand? If the car has a good warranty, I wouldn't worry too much about the fix, especially if it is really just a software issue. I believe there is demand out there. The question is whether or not the demand is worth the marketing and distribution costs.

It'd be most amusing if those who were shedding crocodile tears about VW betraying the green image went and bought back the cars.

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think the "fixed" diesels are just swapping one set of owners for an equal number. I don't think they are expanding the market at all. My two friends who "sold out" really like their VWs, but were very leery of having some hodge-podge fix done to them. And besides, the buy-back offer was quite generous.

In our case we dropped the TDI and picked up the 1.8T gasser.

Not a huge fan of the 1.8T, but it is competent and with the DSG and moves along well. The Alltrack is a good package, deserves the 2.0T. Handles well despite the higher ride height.

Michaell

andres3 said:

fintail said:

I have read multiple accounts of these vehicles selling out. Are all old owners buying back their old cars, or is their other demand? If the car has a good warranty, I wouldn't worry too much about the fix, especially if it is really just a software issue. I believe there is demand out there. The question is whether or not the demand is worth the marketing and distribution costs.

It'd be most amusing if those who were shedding crocodile tears about VW betraying the green image went and bought back the cars.

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think the "fixed" diesels are just swapping one set of owners for an equal number. I don't think they are expanding the market at all. My two friends who "sold out" really like their VWs, but were very leery of having some hodge-podge fix done to them. And besides, the buy-back offer was quite generous.

In our case we dropped the TDI and picked up the 1.8T gasser.

Not a huge fan of the 1.8T, but it is competent and with the DSG and moves along well. The Alltrack is a good package, deserves the 2.0T. Handles well despite the higher ride height.

The new VW 2.0T from the Tiguan is going to appear on the new Passat and Beetle for 2018. 180HP, 221 torques. And, better fuel economy.

Guess we'll have to wait for it to show up in the rest of the fleet.

fintail

Just imagine how much better it would be with diesel torque (and range).

andres3 said:

In our case we dropped the TDI and picked up the 1.8T gasser.

Not a huge fan of the 1.8T, but it is competent and with the DSG and moves along well. The Alltrack is a good package, deserves the 2.0T. Handles well despite the higher ride height.

xwesx

fintail said:

Just imagine how much better it would be with diesel torque (and range).

Are you trying to taunt him?!

ruking1

40/43 mpg & 236 # ft of torque from the VW 2.0 L TDI has been the standard for a very long time.

On fuelly.com: 2015, 2016, 2017 posts avg 29.5 mpg for the 1.8 L gasoline. VW Golf.

I've grown accustomed to the MB 2.1 L twin turbo BT 369 # ft. The heavier weight + 4 matic puts mpg @ 36.

fintail

You know it

It sure is nice sometimes not needing to rev.

xwesx said:

fintail said:

Just imagine how much better it would be with diesel torque (and range).

Are you trying to taunt him?!

andres3

fintail said:

You know it

It sure is nice sometimes not needing to rev.

xwesx said:

fintail said:

Just imagine how much better it would be with diesel torque (and range).

Are you trying to taunt him?!

Actually, they built the 1.8T to feel a lot like the 2.0 TDI motor. Lots of low down torque, but not so much top end speed. A little less torque, a little more HP, less MPG, how much is diesel in CA these days; haven't been paying attention.

Paid 2.59 for regular 87 unleaded gas at Costco the other day.

Michaell

andres3 said:

fintail said:

You know it

It sure is nice sometimes not needing to rev.

xwesx said:

fintail said:

Just imagine how much better it would be with diesel torque (and range).

Are you trying to taunt him?!

Actually, they built the 1.8T to feel a lot like the 2.0 TDI motor. Lots of low down torque, but not so much top end speed. A little less torque, a little more HP, less MPG, how much is diesel in CA these days; haven't been paying attention.

Paid 2.59 for regular 87 unleaded gas at Costco the other day.

Mid grade was $2.48 the other day here in Colorado

kyfdx

$2.95 for Shell PUG on Wednesday

gagrice

I have to drive 13 miles to get RUG for $2.77 Diesel $2.81 on CC. Close to home Shell Diesel $3.07 RUG $3.22. PUG $3.49. Glad I don't drive the Lexus much. We are giving LS400 to nephew that is sort of a collector. Good riddance wasted space in the garage.

xwesx

gagrice said:

I have to drive 13 miles to get RUG for $2.77 Diesel $2.81 on CC. Close to home Shell Diesel $3.07 RUG $3.22. PUG $3.49. Glad I don't drive the Lexus much. We are giving LS400 to nephew that is sort of a collector. Good riddance wasted space in the garage.

I don't want to make you feel bad, Gary, but I must share that I paid $2.65 for diesel a few days ago at one of the more expensive stations in town (Holiday). It always makes me feel good when the ppg here is lower than somewhere else. Doesn't seem to happen all that often anymore.... even with CA prices!

Of course, I also just ordered a thousand gallons of #1 heating oil for my tank, and that's at $2.34 per gallon. A lot better than the nearly $4 per gallon I paid five years ago, but still not an easy pill to swallow.

ruking1

Hopefully it will be a mild winter! South Tahoe, CA has 3 mo of higher natural gas usage. It's hard to shut it down completely, due to hydronic heating (21 therms/$23.)

gagrice

xwesx said:

gagrice said:

I have to drive 13 miles to get RUG for $2.77 Diesel $2.81 on CC. Close to home Shell Diesel $3.07 RUG $3.22. PUG $3.49. Glad I don't drive the Lexus much. We are giving LS400 to nephew that is sort of a collector. Good riddance wasted space in the garage.

I don't want to make you feel bad, Gary, but I must share that I paid $2.65 for diesel a few days ago at one of the more expensive stations in town (Holiday). It always makes me feel good when the ppg here is lower than somewhere else. Doesn't seem to happen all that often anymore.... even with CA prices!

Of course, I also just ordered a thousand gallons of #1 heating oil for my tank, and that's at $2.34 per gallon. A lot better than the nearly $4 per gallon I paid five years ago, but still not an easy pill to swallow.

I paid less for gas in Kona Hawaii than in CA last May. I put down all the pros and cons to leaving CA for a better state. So far I don't have any CONS. Nothing left in CA I want. CalEXIT into the Pacific would give me Ocean front property in NV.

ruking1

12,000 to 15,000 miles avg mpg per avg US driver for its PVF remains true (2015). https://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx So in our case, 36 mpg uses 417 gals ULSD per (commute) yr. But why pay more when less should be paid? CA has even charges more taxes per gal, but has made seeming no accelerated efforts to fix the roads as promised.

Carson City, NV RUG $2.55, MGUG $2.67, PUG $2.77, ULSD $2.45

Oh but they do promise to accelerate that $ 86 B bullet (bb gun) train to no where?

I love this eries, but this one is on diesel filters.

https://youtu.be/UmAABwzubYo

gagrice

Carson City, NV RUG $2.55, MGUG $2.67, PUG $2.77, ULSD $2.45

Oh but the do promised to accelerate that $ 86 B bullet (bb gun) train to no where?

Always found Carson City a good place to buy gas and diesel. The Moonbeam Train to nowhere is on the list of reasons to get out of CA. Someone has to pay for all the nonsense. This is the last year I will be paying in CA.

Getting our Driver's License changed when we go to close in a week. No test just turn in the CA DL and get the Federally accepted REAL ID NV license.

ruking1

We actually go to Carson City, NV a lot, when using South Lake Tahoe, CA as a base.

gagrice

ruking1 said:

We actually go to Carson City, NV a lot, when using South Lake Tahoe, CA as a base.

Closest Costco. Just no diesel at that store. You want cheap diesel, Prescott AZ Costco, is only $2.09. I really like the area. Just housing is very high priced. Too many tourist in the Summer.

ruking1

Yes, & if one is an animal lover, this is the place for big sacks of food! Every time I've gone I've never failed to get a parking space up @ the entrance!

gagrice

Never shopped at the Carson City Costco. Only filled once coming back from Tahoe in the Sequoia. Gardnerville had good diesel prices last Summer when I was in Tahoe. I think it was Washoe Chevron. Owning a diesel you fill much fewer times than with a stinking gas vehicle.

Looking back at the 6+ years I owned the 07 Sequoia, we put 36,153 miles on the ODO. Filled 166 times at a cost of $7588. To date on the 2013 Touareg TDI we have 44,762 miles. Filled it 92 times at a total cost of $5271.
Sequoia = .20988 per mile
Touareg = .11775 per mile

44% less to drive the diesel Touareg. I rest my case.

ruking1

We really have liked & benefited (still) from the (way) longer ranges between ULSD fill ups.! It also lets one better shop the ULSD "sale" days & weeks, i.e. $$'s savings Articles in Gas Buddy & Yahoo.com? have documented the ebb & flow of prices.

On th MB GLK 350 21 mpg /250BT 36 mpg, (and 715/417 gal, 15,000 miles per yr/ 15.6 gal)

= 46 fills vs 27 fills. If each fill takes 15 mins, that's 4.75 hrs per year one isn't filling.

On the 2012 VW Touareg, I've also done only 1 oil & filter change on my own in 63,000 miles (first 30,000 miles, three dealer oil & filter changes included in warranty) I really wasn't planning to sell this early, but oh well. Specification diesel oil is very robust! I've used Castrol, Total, Mobil 1 ESP, to good effects. ZERO issues in mixing. I've also documented very low oil consumption in 4 separate diesels over. 413,000 miles! The most "consumptive" was .75 L in one 30,000 miles oil & filter change. The 4 TDI engines were 1.9 L, 2.0 L, 2.1 L, 3.0 L.

So to add to your posting,...Advantage diesel!

Wind turbine concept dating back to the Persian Empire!?

https://youtu.be/Wlxz-KzebbQ

But WAIT!? Imagine every NYC & SF city building with these & solar panels!! Right, most to all will pull an Al Gore?

The producers didn't say a peep about db or comparison to GE wind turbine products.....

ruking1

But eia.com says solar is .9% ( less than 1%) https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

65% of US electrical energy product comes from "fossilized" (it not fossilized) fuel ! Combine with out of favor 20% nuclear, 85% plus are provided by tsk tsk, "unwanted" sources.

Frack on!

So the environmental shrills seriously want to replace 85% of unwanted sources; when after 30 + yrs plus, the markets & governmentstax credits & write-offs & force have put less than 1 % solar on the markets? You all should journey out to the Mohave Desert to view that monstrosity of a solar farm. I wonder if they will let you eat the freshly killed birds?

ruking1

Altamont Pass, CA on either side of the I580 main freeway has been wind turbine farms for 47 + years. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altamont_Pass_Wind_Farm Its not ceased to kill birds even with, before, during & after massive & ongoing studies to keep bird killing from ever happening again. It looked bad when new. Now the new GE wind turbines are even more massive. They now look like a good back drop for a Canadian SciFi, action adventure or zombie apocalypse movies.

On the other side, nothing says recycling like P 38 fighter aircraft engines in a 55 ft Lake Tahoe, CA wooden boat ? Emissions controls? We don't need no stinking emissions controls!

https://youtu.be/HUSOOcMUfAQ

ruking1

In addition to 37 cents per kWh, one might want to read about a real structural house issue for EV home recharging https://finance.yahoo.com/news/many-homes-aren-t-ready-100330627.html

USA Amarahkin translation!?

http://www.constructionowl.com/100-or-200-amp-electrical-service-that-is-the-question/

Well, IF one is going to get two EV's, nothing says fire safety like upgrades from 100/200 amps to 400 to 500 amps? (100 amps each) Cost you say? Don't worry about it! You're paying for it!

andres3

gagrice said:

ruking1 said:

We actually go to Carson City, NV a lot, when using South Lake Tahoe, CA as a base.

Closest Costco. Just no diesel at that store. You want cheap diesel, Prescott AZ Costco, is only $2.09. I really like the area. Just housing is very high priced. Too many tourist in the Summer.

I love the drive through Prescott on the way to Sedona. Long drive, but lots of it is fun.

Going to Sedona in February; thinking 8E to some El Centro connector to 78 E to 10 E to the Arizona connectors through Prescott into Sedona will be my route again.

Just have to watch it on the 8 East in CA, the Sheriffs will pull you over for 10 over and no front license plate, and then want to check your trunk for drugs.

Michaell

andres3 said:

gagrice said:

ruking1 said:

We actually go to Carson City, NV a lot, when using South Lake Tahoe, CA as a base.

Closest Costco. Just no diesel at that store. You want cheap diesel, Prescott AZ Costco, is only $2.09. I really like the area. Just housing is very high priced. Too many tourist in the Summer.

I love the drive through Prescott on the way to Sedona. Long drive, but lots of it is fun.

Going to Sedona in February; thinking 8E to some El Centro connector to 78 E to 10 E to the Arizona connectors through Prescott into Sedona will be my route again.

Just have to watch it on the 8 East in CA, the Sheriffs will pull you over for 10 over and no front license plate, and then want to check your trunk for drugs.

Especially coming down the hill through Jerome. When I was in college in Phoenix, I'd go up the back way through Prescott and Sedona to Flagstaff, then home on I-17. Was a nice drive.

On one of our first trips to Sedona, the wife and I went to Prescott for the day, through Jerome, then back on I-17.

gagrice

andres3 said:

gagrice said:

ruking1 said:

We actually go to Carson City, NV a lot, when using South Lake Tahoe, CA as a base.

Closest Costco. Just no diesel at that store. You want cheap diesel, Prescott AZ Costco, is only $2.09. I really like the area. Just housing is very high priced. Too many tourist in the Summer.

I love the drive through Prescott on the way to Sedona. Long drive, but lots of it is fun.

Going to Sedona in February; thinking 8E to some El Centro connector to 78 E to 10 E to the Arizona connectors through Prescott into Sedona will be my route again.

Just have to watch it on the 8 East in CA, the Sheriffs will pull you over for 10 over and no front license plate, and then want to check your trunk for drugs.

My Touareg has no front License plate holder. So I never put it on. 4 years in and out of the state through checkpoints and no one said anything.

We stayed in Cottonwood and took the train through the Verde Canyon. A very nice trip. Worth the extra money going first class. https://verdecanyonrr.com/

We were considering Cottonwood as a place to buy and get out of CA. AZ has some nice places. Just a bit over priced for what you get. And higher taxes than NV. Sedona is pretty and the drive up through Jerome to Prescott
is Great.

gagrice

ruking1 said:

In addition to 37 cents per kWh, one might want to read about a real structural house issue for EV home recharging https://finance.yahoo.com/news/many-homes-aren-t-ready-100330627.html

USA Amarahkin translation!?

http://www.constructionowl.com/100-or-200-amp-electrical-service-that-is-the-question/

Well, IF one is going to get two EV's, nothing says fire safety like upgrades from 100/200 amps to 400 to 500 amps? (100 amps each) Cost you say? Don't worry about it! You're paying for it!

All the houses we looked at in Pahrump were minimum 200 Amp service. Our new home has three 3 ton AC/heat pumps. The electric company said the highest bill over 3 years was $303 in the winter. House is 3300 sq ft and the 1200 sq ft garage is heated and cooled. Don't think I will be buying any EV except a golf cart.

fintail

I think if one appears to be at or above a certain socio-economic level, front plate laws aren't really enforced. My anecdotal observation has the take rate for them on Tesla here at no more than 50%, and much less for semi-exotic cars.

andres3

fintail said:

I think if one appears to be at or above a certain socio-economic level, front plate laws aren't really enforced. My anecdotal observation has the take rate for them on Tesla here at no more than 50%, and much less for semi-exotic cars.

It is just finding the wrong officer at the wrong time I think. Also, if they have nothing better to do, and while they wouldn't normally pull over a person going 10 over, well now, hell, they have 2 reasons (vehicle codes) to pull you over now!

Of course, if one is followed and doesn't realize it, they could probably rack up multiple vehicle code infractions on just about anybody. Last I checked our code in CA topped 40,000 possible citations.

ruking1

Well, no & yes to the first premise. It's like if one worked for the IRS & decides ONLY to audited those returns with the highest chances of giving money back!.

But it's totally undeniable that vehicles have been/ are "revenue generators". One example, SF, CA over time meter parking (downtown, as of 2013) $74. In the case, when you haven't gotten back (in time) to clear the violation/s, they can give you multiple tickets at $74 each. After a prescribed number of multiple tickets, for the same violation i.e. overtime parking, they can tow your car away. Nothing says $300-$700 like a towed car.

As to the myriad of ways & reasons one can be stopped, it can be as "logical" as stopping you to see if ones car ( invisible) sticker #'s on the license plate match the #'s on registration paperwork that one is supposed to have.

One should also develop driving sight patterns to include: seeing to knowing (intuitive or otherwise) when LEO's are there! So for example, 10 mpg over fades into mootness, if they have a lazar/radar gun. Aks gotcha dead to rights @ 56 mph in a 55 mph zone. On the est. side, it can also mean (using Kentucky windage) they can give you a ticket @ 8/9 under. They can then say: we'll see ya in court! Oh & what are these other things....

More on point, I've never been stopped by officers who solely wished me to have a great day. Have any of them been nasty? Absolutely not!

gagrice

I think VW is missing the boat not offering their van in diesel as well as EV. Then I probably would not buy either. 270 mile range with likely half of that when it is hot with AC going. Just don't get it.

http://www.businessinsider.sg/vw-volkswagen-microbus-coming-2022-2017-8/#.WZ0nPIfwMxg.facebook

ruking1

I would totally agree with having to have the diesel option! I would guess it'd be like 85% diesel option. There are a host of TMI issues! Why no solar panels & battery storage capabilities is baffling & inexplicable. !

The VW Mircobus/Camper concept really brings me backward & forward in time! I had wanted 38 years ago to buy a Euro, but Am spec VW Camper to tour all of Europe, over a 3 yr tour on every available holiday (33 days) , weekend (156 days) & vacation time (90 days). Some very close friends did massive upgrades to their old VW camper. They also upgraded the garage to park it under cover! The son commissioned a retro VW camper in addition!. He's already done a western states tour in it!

I seem to still like the MB Sprinter diesel camper concept! While bigger & taller, it will still fit in the South Lake Tahoe garage. I still fancy doing multi trips to any & all 49 states & two or more foreign countries! Some portions of South American continent are hot spots.

Advantage diesels!

andres3

VW misses the boat a lot.

They should offer a Sportwagen GTI, and a Sportwagen R or Alltrack R.

They probably should offer a Golf 400 too.

christyboucher

ruking1 said:

Then the questions becomes what % comes from where & were they offered in China? Just because an unknown % was made in Ontario, CN does not ban/preclude it being made / assembled n China. Mexico, etc. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Equinox. RE: per your post V-6 (100%?) made in China.

It's a great TDI starter.

The 6 sp TDI would almost be a deal breaker, for me. For me, it would be in the running with 2.0 to 2.5 L, twin turbo, 250 # ft to 375# ft, 8/9 sp A/T.

yes, I agree with you

ruking1

This is not diesel related, so feel free to delete/ignore it. A relative is looking at the six series 2015 BMW with > than 50 miles. $84,995 MSRP/now @ $59,500 It's interesting the model year is going on third/fourth year. The dealer is trying to sell as "new".

Among other things one could chime in with, this is one anecdotal example of new (2017) car sales that are stalling. Prices of used cars continue falling also.

kyfdx

ruking1 said:

This is not diesel related, so feel free to delete/ignore it. A relative is looking at the six series 2015 BMW with > than 50 miles. $84,y995 MSRP/now @ $59,500 It's interesting the model year is going on third/fourth year. The dealer is trying to sell as "new".

Among other things one could chime in with, this is one anecdotal example of new (2017) car sales that are stalling. Prices of used cars continue falling also.

Sounds like a bad deal. I'll guess the dealership already "punched" the car as sold to collect an incentive, so the warranty is probably half gone.

I wouldn't pay any more than you would for a comparable used car (something under 20K miles)

ruking1

@ the right prices, these kind of "new" old products are sleepers! It would be interesting to know how many "new" cars are counted as sold, but remain in various inventories past their model years.

gagrice

ruking1 said:

This is not diesel related, so feel free to delete/ignore it. A relative is looking at the six series 2015 BMW with > than 50 miles. $84,995 MSRP/now @ $59,500 It's interesting the model year is going on third/fourth year. The dealer is trying to sell as "new".

Among other things one could chime in with, this is one anecdotal example of new (2017) car sales that are stalling. Prices of used cars continue falling also.

Or did it get crashed and rebuilt in a demo? I would think that would be easy to find out. The dealer may as well use it as he is probably stuck with it. Sell it as an executive car. Not being a diesel it is worthless to me.

ruking1

It could very well have been. Dealer however seems pat on price.

It's pretty silent on the used diesels I'm looking for!

ruking1

VW dieselgate Scapegoat? http://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/article169284442.html?ref=yfp

fintail

"destroyed the very foundation of our economic system"

That's some hilariously bad drama, maybe not surprising given the self-awareness of that vocation.

ruking1

Yup he should have gotten on IRS tax cheat reporters program! Imagine the % IRS pays out on cheating! ?