What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

gagrice

14 MB GLK 250 BT posted 36.3 mpg (570 miles/15.7 gal)

Yesterday driving home from Pahrump NV we had smooth sailing. Running 65-75 MPH with very little traffic. Then we hit the first of 3 Moonbeam Cone Zones at about 173 miles out of Pahrump. I was averaging on the computer 36.5 MPG. By the time we emerged out of the 3 lanes going to one lane an hour later my mileage was down to 26.5 MPG grrrr. Worst part, not a single worker out there. No signs of work being done. Looks to me like a Christie road block to keep the sheep in line. From there to Riverside on the 15 and 215 were two more Cone Zones with NO work being done. I hate CA more and more every day.

ruking1

Yes, indeed! This 36.3 mpg was one tankful in normal grinding comute & multiple trips to SF & SJO- San Jose/Mineta Intl Airport.

Stupid accidents are a fixture on navigation devices radio & the evening news!

So even in commute and grinding traffic, diesels holds the advantage!

Michaell

gagrice said:

14 MB GLK 250 BT posted 36.3 mpg (570 miles/15.7 gal)

Yesterday driving home from Pahrump NV we had smooth sailing. Running 65-75 MPH with very little traffic. Then we hit the first of 3 Moonbeam Cone Zones at about 173 miles out of Pahrump. I was averaging on the computer 36.5 MPG. By the time we emerged out of the 3 lanes going to one lane an hour later my mileage was down to 26.5 MPG grrrr. Worst part, not a single worker out there. No signs of work being done. Looks to me like a Christie road block to keep the sheep in line. From there to Riverside on the 15 and 215 were two more Cone Zones with NO work being done. I hate CA more and more every day.

When do you make the big move?

ruking1

Michaell said:

ruking1 said:

Slow diesel news day!

14 MB GLK 250 BT posted 36.3 mpg (570 miles/15.7 gal)

The VW TDI's 2009 Jetta/2012 Touareg were turned in for VW buyback @ the local dealer. It was a relatively seamless & fast procedure (*2) We were told Bosch & incidental funds would follow after initial funds transfer set up. We did a final interior check (stuff left behind). & the deals were concluded.

So you are down to a one car household?

No! I've not advertised the 2003 VW Jetta for sale yet. I'm guessing the "diesel-gate" brouhaha upped the price on this iconic MY. But if there is interest....

Right now I'm just in gratitude mode for a whole lot less EXPENSES: CA registration fees, taxes, smog fees, asso costs & insurances.

gagrice

Michaell said:

gagrice said:

14 MB GLK 250 BT posted 36.3 mpg (570 miles/15.7 gal)

Yesterday driving home from Pahrump NV we had smooth sailing. Running 65-75 MPH with very little traffic. Then we hit the first of 3 Moonbeam Cone Zones at about 173 miles out of Pahrump. I was averaging on the computer 36.5 MPG. By the time we emerged out of the 3 lanes going to one lane an hour later my mileage was down to 26.5 MPG grrrr. Worst part, not a single worker out there. No signs of work being done. Looks to me like a Christie road block to keep the sheep in line. From there to Riverside on the 15 and 215 were two more Cone Zones with NO work being done. I hate CA more and more every day.

When do you make the big move?

Leaving CA with thousands of other middle class folks. Mostly retirees, that don't want to waste their kids inheritance on silly taxes and welfare leeches. Just bought a home in Pahrump NV. Almost everyone I talk to in Pahrump are from CA. Left for the same reasons we are leaving. Taking my diesel SUV with me. Will buy another in NV.

The Calexit proponent also said it is a "good thing" that the middle class is fleeing the state because it will make room for the "new wave" of immigrants. Singam told Carlson that "the United States" should be thanking "us" for "exporting" the state's middle class to the rest of the country.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/08/01/calexit_proponent_to_tucker_carlson_were_exporting_middle_class_to_make_room_for_next_wave_of_immigrants.html

ruking1

While @ the local VW dealer for the buyback transactions, I noticed a used 2015 VW Golf TDI for sale.

It would be interesting to know the (actual) logistics to get an approved fixed TDI for resale @ a dealer.

As we all know, 85% is the (non penalty) (of app 500,000 cars) buyback goal for the 2.0 L TDI. In the worst case, VW would not have ownership control of 75,000 cars. So as soon as VW can perform approved fixes to each car, in theory ALL fixed cars in VW ownership & control can go back on the used car markets.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1104718_vw-diesel-settlement-details-buybacks-payments-modifications-fines-all-the-details

Defacto, this mechanism (in theory) can serve to re inflate the (used) 3. To 5% diesel car take markets! VW OEM (& certainly others) I'm sure will monitor the used TDI take rates. This will help them to decide whether to get back in to increase the TDI markets!?

As I've said before, which this mechanism will probably prove, this is a renaissance in the PVF TDI markets !

Advantage TDI's !!

fintail

I talked to the indy mechanic to whom I entrust my fintail - I've been going to him for well over a decade, and he has a following here. He told me that by far the modern MB he would consider most is a Bluetec like my car.

gagrice

While @ the local VW dealer for the buyback transactions, I noticed a used 2015 VW Golf TDI for sale.

If I get rid of my Touareg TDI and buy a Canyon/Colorado diesel, I will look for a runabout. A late model Beetle TDI would be high on the list. I see a couple hundred 2015 Beetle TDIs on the market. Both new and used. Have to guess they got the fix. Of course if Jeep gets the go ahead on Grand Cherokee diesels that is another option. Happy diesel days are here again....

ruking1

fintail said:

I talked to the indy mechanic to whom I entrust my fintail - I've been going to him for well over a decade, and he has a following here. He told me that by far the modern MB he would consider most is a Bluetec like my car.

Surprising for me are the VERY robust used car prices for the 2014 MB GLK 250 BT. ( the 2.1 L twin turbo TDI/BlueTec) Most are @ more than we paid new!? @ 49,000 miles, we are loving it! The engine continues to perform like a trooper!

On the other side, equally as surprising are the GREAT deals that can be found in ( the 2.1 L twin turbo TDI/BlueTec) "CARS" like yours! Time will tell when prices will begin to bottom & also head north again.

TMI

In the case of of the latest VW developments, I haven't a clue what that will do to TDI markets. However, most to the issue, all developments should be positive!

I can not help but feel gratitude to edmunds.com for the information provided over the years especially concerning TDI's!!! They have provided the tools to help navigate the "process". Major KUDO's are in order!

In the auto markets, as a consumer, it is hard enough to buy/sell, both, wisely, let alone well! It's hard enough to buy a new, great car! When one adds to that, that retains optimum resale value, the tasks becomes almost daunting.

Yet due to information on edmunds.com, et al., choices & information led to a total of 2 cars with 210,000 miles total cost per mile driven:depreciation: .00476 cents. No, I don't know if this figure will be completely true, as various TBD penalties $$'s are still coming in.

fintail

Much larger demand for little SUVs, I think. You'll mostly only get brand diehards and old guys looking at a relatively expensive square diesel sedan, but more people will look for the cute ute.

If I don't buy out my lease at the end, I might seek another similar car. But I am very picky about colors, options, and condition, so time will tell.

ruking1 said:

Surprising for me are the VERY robust used car prices for the 2014 MB GLK 250 BT. ( the 2.1 L twin turbo TDI/BlueTec) Most are @ more than we paid new!? @ 49,000 miles, we are loving it! The engine continues to perform like a trooper!

On the other side, equally as surprising are the GREAT deals that can be found in ( the 2.1 L twin turbo TDI/BlueTec) "CARS" like yours! Time will tell when prices will begin to bottom & also head north again.

TMI

ruking1

There is nothing wrong about one looking for "needles in the haystacks" ! Happy hunting!

On the subject of compact utes, you are spot on!

gagrice

ruking1 said:

There is nothing wrong about one looking for "needles in the haystacks" ! Happy hunting!

On the subject of compact utes, you are spot on!

I am very disappointed in MB for not continuing the 2.1L diesel sales in the USA. I was looking at the GLC gasser of course, I would have liked one with that great diesel engine. They lost my interest with their lazy attitude toward diesel sales in the USA. MB Dealers in San Diego are rather snooty anyway.

ruking1

It's really inexplicable, as they already pass the forward looking standards ! We shall see if they even get back into the game.

Michaell

ruking1 said:

It's really inexplicable, as they already pass the forward looking standards ! We shall see if they even get back into the game.

My guess - and it's only a guess - is that the marketing and sales orgs have looked at the state of the diesel market in the US and have decided to bail on the segment.

While all the engineers are locked in a room and don't get to participate in the conversation.

gagrice

Just want to say to our moderators. Edmunds used to be a great site to price out vehicles. I just tried to build a Chevy Colorado diesel and it keeps sending me to the Chevy website. I could go there to start with. What ever happened to the Edmund's pricing?

Michaell

gagrice said:

Just want to say to our moderators. Edmunds used to be a great site to price out vehicles. I just tried to build a Chevy Colorado diesel and it keeps sending me to the Chevy website. I could go there to start with. What ever happened to the Edmund's pricing?

Can you describe where you start?

Try the "make / model / year" pull downs at the top of the page and let us know where you end up....

fintail

I think that's right re: MB diesels - the marketers think it isn't worth the effort to sell them, as they appeal to a small niche. I can't see how this is real, as MB barely tried to sell them in recent years to begin with, but I bet that's the reasoning.

A GLC, or C wagon with the 2.1 would be quite a rig, A C with this engine would be relatively quick, and probably pass 50mpg without a lot of trouble. The engine is alive and well in Europe, of course.

kyfdx

gagrice said:

Just want to say to our moderators. Edmunds used to be a great site to price out vehicles. I just tried to build a Chevy Colorado diesel and it keeps sending me to the Chevy website. I could go there to start with. What ever happened to the Edmund's pricing?

Use the Make/Model/Year tabs to choose your model.
That will take you to a page with 10 header choices arranged horizontally. Click on "pricing".
On the next page... scroll down.. and down, and down.. until you see the "Build and Price" button.

That will take you to here:

https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/colorado/2018/options/?legacy=true&sub=&color=

ruking1

fintail said:

I think that's right re: MB diesels - the marketers think it isn't worth the effort to sell them, as they appeal to a small niche. I can't see how this is real, as MB barely tried to sell them in recent years to begin with, but I bet that's the reasoning.

A GLC, or C wagon with the 2.1 would be quite a rig, A C with this engine would be relatively quick, and probably pass 50mpg without a lot of trouble. The engine is alive and well in Europe, of course.

2019 MY would probably be the earliest MB would re enter the "D" markets.

The 2014 MB GLK (2.1 L, 250 BT, 2015 last MY) is the GLC's predecessor. (2016 1st year)

A slow diesel news day TMI

Evidently, VW specially trains TDI buyback representatives. The local VW dealers' could not make the agreed upon time appointment, so some person from the (unrelated) Audi dealership, 30 miles away came & took the appointment.

fintail

And that is doubtful IMO. 2018 is already decided, no diesels. There will need to be a critical mass of demand, maybe we need to start writing letters

ruking1 said:

2019 MY would probably be the earliest MB would re enter the "D" markets.

The 2014 MB GLK (2.1 L, 250 BT, 2015 last MY) is the GLC's predecessor. (2016 1st year)

A slow diesel news day TMI

Evidently, VW specially trains TDI buyback representatives. The local VW dealers' could not make the agreed upon time appointment, so some person from the (unrelated) Audi dealership, 30 miles away came & took the appointment.

ruking1

Since MB companies are already BIG diesel players, (EU & world wide, etc) my guess: they are gauging absorption rates in the US markets, 500k plus USED VW TDI's.2.0 L & 3.0 L. They could see a new diesel car opportunity, starting in 2019.

This is purely anecdotal, but I would love to buy MY 2012 Touareg TDI (2009 VW Jetta, for that matter) for Dec 2017 KBB prices after fixes, aka, less than what they gave me, sans emissions penalties. I know it will go back on the used car market AFTER the approved emissions approvals & subsequent fixes. The questions will obviously be when, where and how!

But, the 2017/2018 back drop: too much new car product & falling prices. Subprime new car loan defaults are growing. Also another guess: the USED car markets will probably grow fromo (2016) 33 M & prices are dropping precipitously. Heavy replacement was accomplished circa 2016. 2015 PVF = 281.3 M

gagrice

Michaell said:

gagrice said:

Just want to say to our moderators. Edmunds used to be a great site to price out vehicles. I just tried to build a Chevy Colorado diesel and it keeps sending me to the Chevy website. I could go there to start with. What ever happened to the Edmund's pricing?

Can you describe where you start?

Try the "make / model / year" pull downs at the top of the page and let us know where you end up....

Make: Chevy, Model: Colorado, Year: 2017, Crew Cab, scroll down a little and it has Build and Price. That takes me right to the Chevy website. I love Edmunds Forum. The buying portion has really gone to pot. I think I found what I wanted way down the page. Why do they let IT people fix what ain't broken????

kyfdx

gagrice said:

Michaell said:

gagrice said:

Just want to say to our moderators. Edmunds used to be a great site to price out vehicles. I just tried to build a Chevy Colorado diesel and it keeps sending me to the Chevy website. I could go there to start with. What ever happened to the Edmund's pricing?

Can you describe where you start?

Try the "make / model / year" pull downs at the top of the page and let us know where you end up....

Make: Chevy, Model: Colorado, Year: 2017, Crew Cab, scroll down a little and it has Build and Price. That takes me right to the Chevy website. I love Edmunds Forum. The buying portion has really gone to pot. I think I found what I wanted way down the page. Why do they let IT people fix what ain't broken????

Before you scroll down, make sure you click on Pricing on the horizontal banner that has about ten choices. From the next page, scroll down and choose "Build and Price". It's a solid button.

Just tried it three times, and it works every time.. Or, click on the link that I put in my post above.

andres3

gagrice said:

14 MB GLK 250 BT posted 36.3 mpg (570 miles/15.7 gal)

Yesterday driving home from Pahrump NV we had smooth sailing. Running 65-75 MPH with very little traffic. Then we hit the first of 3 Moonbeam Cone Zones at about 173 miles out of Pahrump. I was averaging on the computer 36.5 MPG. By the time we emerged out of the 3 lanes going to one lane an hour later my mileage was down to 26.5 MPG grrrr. Worst part, not a single worker out there. No signs of work being done. Looks to me like a Christie road block to keep the sheep in line. From there to Riverside on the 15 and 215 were two more Cone Zones with NO work being done. I hate CA more and more every day.

Cal-Trans......

Also, construction in general is riddled with over-regulation that causes delays due to decision paralysis.

ruking1

Can't wait till the lanes Highway 50 portion (SB out of South Lake Tahoe, CA, pull off & #2/2) get put back into service. They rolled off the side of the mountain during the 2016/2017 winter record snowfall.

fintail

I wonder if people involved with the buyback will be able to trace the VIN and re-purchase their old car (at a discounted rate)? I can't see why not.

ruking1

I'm planning to! It's pretty easy. Ask the VW dealer to call when they locate a " specific" one!

Edmunds.com indicates VW gave me 141% MORE than what it (12 VW Touareg TDI) should sell for on the Aug, 7, 2017 used market! In my mind, there's not much wrong with this scenario! I don't see why the 2012 3.0 L would not be approved, since the 2009 Jetta on up were.

Well perhaps one issue, I'd have to pay another 10% tax on the similar/same product.

xwesx

Definitely trying to keep appraised of my Passat. I really wouldn't mind having that car again! I plan no such thing for the Q7.

The only downside on the Passat (getting it back, that is), is that is is basically the nicest one in existence. Thankfully, with the light interior, that will turn a lot of folks away. Still, will probably have to travel a long way to reacquire it, if at all.

ruking1

Well, one can give physical as well as VIN description!!! Armed with the VIN, it can be directed to the area closest to you!

On the Audi Q7, again you have 20/20 hindsight, just as I do on mine: albeit with far different conclusions!! You know what SPECIFICALLY what you do NOT want & I do!

xwesx

ruking1 said:

On the Audi Q7, again you have 20/20 hindsight, just as I do on mine: albeit with far different conclusions!! You know what SPECIFICALLY what you do NOT want & I do!

Yes, definitely! I really like the Q7 save for the lack of that necessary extra 6" in interior height.

Michaell

My local dealer has a few TDI's for sale, again. The ones I looked at were priced between $15-20K

ruking1

Without the details, do they seem like good prices?

So VW has control of how, what, where, when & how it's approved USED TDI inventory hits the marketplace.

Michaell

ruking1 said:

Without the details, do they seem like good prices?

So VW has control of how, what, where, when & how it's approved USED TDI inventory hits the marketplace.

Honestly, I couldn't tell you. They are all 2015's that have had "the fix" applied to them.

ruking1

Seems they are putting the 2015 TDI's on the markets!

kyfdx

They already released the new 2.0 liter 2015 models back in April.

ruking1

I think they want to NOT emphasize sales of the approved "fixed" TDI's. Or perhaps a news blackout was part of wink & nod agreements. I've not seen ANY articles about TDI used car sales.

So unless VW shoots a lot of TDI's in the head, VW having app 500,000 used & fixing units for resale is totally bullish for diesels!

Indeed not a word about emissions air quality with ALL these VW TDI cars in parking lots!

Michaell

I've seen plenty of articles on the 'fixed' 2015's. As noted, they've been on sale for a few months now. Big discounts at first, but then demand got so great that the prices have actually increased a bit.

ruking1

Price increases are bullish ! (especially on used [TDI's] cars! ) Since I've seen no articles or #'s, I would dare say that this also insulates them from falling used car prices ! Again bullish for VW & buyers!

gagrice

kyfdx said:

They already released the new 2.0 liter 2015 models back in April.

I would think that a challenge in itself. Selling brand new cars that are 3 years old. Unless it is a diesel wonk like those of us on Edmunds, it is a hard sell. They have to go into detail with the customer why they have a new old vehicle on their lot. All I have seen listed are new with some sort of emissions fix. 2015-16 Touareg TDIs mostly listed at MSRP. What they are selling for is a good question. I got $7k of MSRP when I bought my 2013. I sure would not buy the exact same vehicle with a 2016 MY attached for the asking price of $59k. A car sitting for 2+ years on a storage lot has deterioration to the paint. And old tires cannot be that good. If they would give me a 2016 T reg TDI Lux for my 2013 I would accept it as payment for my pain and suffering.
In reality they have lost their luster. And moving to a place without a VW dealership closer than 66 miles away is a huge turnoff. If I cannot get rid of this back to VW, I will probably take whatever cash and trade it in on a Jeep GC diesel when they get back on the lots.

ruking1

Gasoline advocates (95 % to 97% PVF) should find this "ethanol " clip enlightening. Another massive advantage diesel! The environmentalists were forced to admit they were & remain wrong! They now admit ethanol is FAR worse for the environment than gasoline!!! For every gal of ethanol, there are $1.78 GOVERNMENT subsidies, not including jacked up commodities prices. ( over gasoline) https://youtu.be/OFTcmORherM

kyfdx

gagrice said:

kyfdx said:

They already released the new 2.0 liter 2015 models back in April.

I would think that a challenge in itself. Selling brand new cars that are 3 years old. Unless it is a diesel wonk like those of us on Edmunds, it is a hard sell. They have to go into detail with the customer why they have a new old vehicle on their lot. All I have seen listed are new with some sort of emissions fix. 2015-16 Touareg TDIs mostly listed at MSRP. What they are selling for is a good question. I got $7k of MSRP when I bought my 2013. I sure would not buy the exact same vehicle with a 2016 MY attached for the asking price of $59k. A car sitting for 2+ years on a storage lot has deterioration to the paint. And old tires cannot be that good. If they would give me a 2016 T reg TDI Lux for my 2013 I would accept it as payment for my pain and suffering.
In reality they have lost their luster. And moving to a place without a VW dealership closer than 66 miles away is a huge turnoff. If I cannot get rid of this back to VW, I will probably take whatever cash and trade it in on a Jeep GC diesel when they get back on the lots.

They had $5000 rebates, and 0% financing for 60 months. They didn't have any trouble selling all of them at MSRP - $5000. They all sold out within a week.

ruking1

gagrice said:

kyfdx said:

They already released the new 2.0 liter 2015 models back in April.

I would think that a challenge in itself. Selling brand new cars that are 3 years old. Unless it is a diesel wonk like those of us on Edmunds, it is a hard sell. They have to go into detail with the customer why they have a new old vehicle on their lot. All I have seen listed are new with some sort of emissions fix. 2015-16 Touareg TDIs mostly listed at MSRP. What they are selling for is a good question. I got $7k of MSRP when I bought my 2013. I sure would not buy the exact same vehicle with a 2016 MY attached for the asking price of $59k. A car sitting for 2+ years on a storage lot has deterioration to the paint. And old tires cannot be that good. If they would give me a 2016 T reg TDI Lux for my 2013 I would accept it as payment for my pain and suffering.
In reality they have lost their luster. And moving to a place without a VW dealership closer than 66 miles away is a huge turnoff. If I cannot get rid of this back to VW, I will probably take whatever cash and trade it in on a Jeep GC diesel when they get back on the lots.

To me, the key is/are to make the right $$'s deal/s. Knowledge gained here & real life experiences are other keys. Even with UP to 500,000 used units for sale, TDI's are still niche markets (3% to 5% PVF ) . ZERO % $$'s is/are a good place to start/seal a great deal.!

ruking1

Michaell said:

I've seen plenty of articles on the 'fixed' 2015's. As noted, they've been on sale for a few months now. Big discounts at first, but then demand got so great that the prices have actually increased a bit.

Too bad no real information is conveyed! Who are the buyers? What % TDI buyers are former owners? What are the TDI percentages, numbers $$'s?

Michaell

ruking1 said:

Michaell said:

I've seen plenty of articles on the 'fixed' 2015's. As noted, they've been on sale for a few months now. Big discounts at first, but then demand got so great that the prices have actually increased a bit.

Too bad no real information is conveyed! Who are the buyers? What % TDI buyers are former owners? What are the TDI percentages, numbers $$'s?

I don't think anybody has compiled that information. All VW dealers and VW corporate care about are that the cars are selling.

ruking1

IF VW A sells 250,000 to 500,000 USED TDI units in one year, that puts them into the big leagues & with the big boys!

Michaell

ruking1 said:

IF VW A sells 250,000 to 500,000 USED TDI units in one year, that puts them into the big leagues & with the big boys!

That's a big IF - we shall see.

fintail

VW can sell 250K used TDis easy, but it would take more than this market.

ruking1

There might be delays due to logistics (such as: parts) & decisions to enter (other) markets. I'm led to believe the TDI "affected" cars can be sold world wide with the approved EPA/CARB fixes.

kyfdx

ruking1 said:

There might be delays due to logistics (such as: parts) & decisions to enter (other) markets. I'm led to believe the TDI "affected" cars can be sold world wide with the approved EPA/CARB fixes.

Exactly.. logistics. If they have the dealers do the "fix", which is what I would guess, They won't roll back out as quickly as they were re-purchased. Plus, I have to believe there are plenty that are still with their owners, and may never hit the market. They can get the fix and the bonus payment, and keep their vehicles.

ruking1

Well, I think the TMI are in the details! https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/

http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl/final-settlement-2-Liter

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/3Liter/Notices/VW 3L Settlement Notice.pdf

So for example, of 500,000 affected units (2.0L) the VW buyback goals are 85% (425,000) without additional penalties. @ that take rate, it only makes sense (to me anyway) to have the approved fixes done @ or near logistics assembly points. Then either rail car loaded or 8 car transportation loaded, for transportation to VW dealers.

This of course leaves 15% (75,000) of units or less that are probably in states that don't really care about this approved fix brouhaha. Or want the approved fixes to be locally accomplished.

We should not forget individual choice makes it VOLUNTARY compliance and not MANDATORY compliance, like EPA/CARB want us to believe.