What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

gagrice

Michaell said:

ruking1 said:

Michaell said:

I've seen plenty of articles on the 'fixed' 2015's. As noted, they've been on sale for a few months now. Big discounts at first, but then demand got so great that the prices have actually increased a bit.

Too bad no real information is conveyed! Who are the buyers? What % TDI buyers are former owners? What are the TDI percentages, numbers $$'s?

I don't think anybody has compiled that information. All VW dealers and VW corporate care about are that the cars are selling.

I am just glad VW was allowed to repair and sell all those VWs. That would have been an environmental travesty to crush them when you consider the pollution factor in manufacturing vehicles.

Out of 321 VW Touareg TDIs listed for sale, all but 12 are new 2016 MY. Only one matches my 2013 white Lux with brown leather. They are asking $58,780 for the vehicle. That is almost $11k more than I paid for mine new in 2013, with 100% Zero financing. I got a sneaking suspicion, the repaired ones will use a LOT more AdBlue.

ruking1

I'm still waiting for the two Bosch emissions penalties & other TBD penalties funds to find its way to us.

Michaell

gagrice said:

Michaell said:

ruking1 said:

Michaell said:

I've seen plenty of articles on the 'fixed' 2015's. As noted, they've been on sale for a few months now. Big discounts at first, but then demand got so great that the prices have actually increased a bit.

Too bad no real information is conveyed! Who are the buyers? What % TDI buyers are former owners? What are the TDI percentages, numbers $$'s?

I don't think anybody has compiled that information. All VW dealers and VW corporate care about are that the cars are selling.

I am just glad VW was allowed to repair and sell all those VWs. That would have been an environmental travesty to crush them when you consider the pollution factor in manufacturing vehicles.

Out of 321 VW Touareg TDIs listed for sale, all but 12 are new 2016 MY. Only one matches my 2013 white Lux with brown leather. They are asking $58,780 for the vehicle. That is almost $11k more than I paid for mine new in 2013, with 100% Zero financing. I got a sneaking suspicion, the repaired ones will use a LOT more AdBlue.

I think Car and Driver did a comparison between a fixed and an unfixed Jetta TDI, and they concluded the same thing.

They believed the whole point of the "cheat" was to match up the AdBlue refill schedule to that of the oil change interval, for customer convenience.

gagrice

They believed the whole point of the "cheat" was to match up the AdBlue refill schedule to that of the oil change interval, for customer convenience.

I think they are right. However the dealers were in the dark. I had free service and they did not bother to fill the Adblue. Less than a 1000 miles after the first service, at 9k miles, I got the reminder to fill. Took it in and they supposedly filled it. within 5k miles I got the reminder again. When I asked the service manager to explain his response was they only put in one jug so they don't overflow the tank and make a mess. Which they did anyway, splashing it on my spare tire. Very poorly designed tank. Almost an afterthought for the US VWs. The GM Canyon/Colorado has the Def filler along side the fuel filler.

As much as I love driving the Touareg TDI, I will be glad to get rid of it. Not the kind of vehicle I want to own without a warranty. Actually I don't know of any modern vehicle I would like to own without a warranty and a dealer nearby. They all have issues, and that includes the Toyota Sequoia I owned. It was under the extended warranty when we sold it to my wife's grand daughter. And she used it for several things that more than paid for it.

ruking1

If a mid size CUV is what one needs, wants, likes &/or all of the above, out of six; the 2012 VW Touareg TDI has been one of the best! It also has been so on almost every metric that's been important to me.

Getting app 2.5% over the price (bought new) after both 5 years & 64,000 miles was beyond very cool! Kudos to VW ! If anyone knows of any other auto oem that had/would go to that length, please post it here!

Another cool thing is that one can buy another on the used market, after the approved fixes.!

So far, the unit has been (5) win (new), win (in operation: reliability, durability, etc) win (ZERO down) win ZERO % $$'s, win (paid back more $$'s used than new) I'm waiting for the 2012 & other MY's to get the approved fixes! I will probably wait another interval to see how the fixes are received by both new buyers & owners who decided to keep their units. Another year or two will probably not halt inevitable depreciation.!

I'm at a loss to figure what will replace it, with the same or better combination of wins (5, there are many more, but those are TMI)

fintail

Modest drive this morning, maybe 60 miles, probably 80% on interstates which were fairly open at the time. Per the computer, 41.5 mpg, not too shabby given there were many stop lights in the city.

ruking1

Advantage diesels! The ranges of operation (for a decade or more) seems to be better with TDI's!

Fuelly.com 2012 VW Touaregs shows fuel mileage in descending order: TDI, gas hybrid, gas.

gagrice

rukingIf a mid size CUV is what one needs, wants, likes &/or all of the above, out of six; the 2012 VW Touareg TDI has been one of the best! It also has been so on almost every metric that's been important to me.

Getting app 2.5% over the price (bought new) after both 5 years & 64,000 miles was beyond very cool! Kudos to VW ! If anyone knows of any other auto oem that had/would go to that length, please post it here!

Another cool thing is that one can buy another on the used market, after the approved fixes.!

I wonder if they will bother with a fix for the 2012 Touareg? I agree that my 2013 is far and away the best vehicle I have ever owned. That does not mean I want to keep throwing money at little $500+ failures after the warranty expires. The O2 sensor and def tank heater repair was more than I paid for the extended warranty. At 46k miles I am past what I have kept any vehicle over the last 30 years. I kept my 98 Suburban 7 years and 45k miles. Got rid of the Sequoia at 6 years and 36k miles. If I keep the Touareg after the fix it will be the first vehicle I have owned in 30+ years without an extended warranty. I have never wasted money on extended warranty. Always got back more in repairs than it cost. Looks like I will hit close to 12k miles per year on this one. First ever for me. Several long trips to Oregon and Indiana to visit kids. I for sure will not give it away like the Sequoia. With my new 4 car garage I can hang onto it for vacations.

ruking1

Congradulations on your new place!! All the best in your new environment! Getting intergrated in the new place has been great fun for me!

Right now Toyota &/or Lexus have been known &/or have the reputation for reliability & durablity. I'd be remiss if I did not say my 5 Toyota SUV's (1987, 1991, 1994, 1995, 1996 were great!

Yet, each to ALL MY's have had known issues that got budgeted for. For example, all the 02 sensors have required replacing, some multiple times ! We still have the 1996.TLC. A Doctor friend from Canada wanted a call when we should want to sell. It's got app 200,000 miles. One thing on the Toyota's that I do NOT miss are how fast the brake pads wear!

Another is the local Toyota dealer is app .75 miles away!

ruking1

I've not tested the full line of mid size Toyota/Lexus CUV's. But nothing except better resale value (normal) excites me about any to all!

Given the anticipated fall & glut in new & used car prices, it makes sense to look for deals in both segments. At this time, I'm not really inclined to buy new or used in gasoline models. I'd consider used diesels.

So far the newish Jaguar F Pace has captured my attention, but it's a compact CUV. The claim is if it's better than the Porsche Mscan.

ruking1

WARNING! These two articles are probably not sound bite able!

MB bought Chrysler some years ago. http://money.cnn.com/2007/05/14/news/companies/chrysler_sale/

Why is this now different? https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2017/08/14/fiat-chrysler-chinese-automaker/564033001/?ref=yfp

Is this is a case of Yogi Berra's déjà vu all over again ? How is selling Chrysler to a foreign (China) auto oem oing to make America great again? Or how long did it take FIAT (foreign) to fiqure out it got hosed?

IF VW can sell used TDI's 2.0 L, 3.0 L after approved fixes, then this https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2017/08/14/gm-doubles-down-on-diesel-as-2018-equinox-gets-39-mpg-rating-577-mile-range/#5ef3343c2dd8 GM diesel news might be bullish for diesels?

andres3

ruking1 said:

WARNING! These two articles are probably not sound bite able!

MB bought Chrysler some years ago. http://money.cnn.com/2007/05/14/news/companies/chrysler_sale/

Why is this now different? https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2017/08/14/fiat-chrysler-chinese-automaker/564033001/?ref=yfp

Is this is a case of Yogi Berra's déjà vu all over again ? How is selling Chrysler to a foreign (China) going to make America great again? Or how long did it take FIAT (foreign) to fiqure out it got hosed?

IF VW can sell used TDI's 2.0 L, 3.0 after approved fixes, then this https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2017/08/14/gm-doubles-down-on-diesel-as-2018-equinox-gets-39-mpg-rating-577-mile-range/#5ef3343c2dd8 GM diesel news might be bullish for diesels?

There are a few automakers out there that wish humans didn't have long memories.

Or perhaps they wish that early onset Alzheimer afflicts 100% of the population.

fintail

Talking to some dealer employees at the MBCA gathering yesterday, a couple believe diesel MBs will be back here within 3 years.

ruking1

For a whole host of reasons, it makes total sense for MB CA to get back into diesel markets asap & with way higher like models & %'s!

fintail

The dealer people said they field many inquiries about diesels, but I don't know if that niche would be enough for a return. I guess having more than zero demand can only help. A new larger engined C diesel with the 9 speed might be amazingly economical, yet swift.

At the MBCA event yesterday, there as a private import 2002 S400 CDi, which was a short run V8 diesel. Unusual car, owner was quite happy with it.

ruking1

MB diesel statistics have been hard for me to find. But I'm way open to maybe I'm not being diected to the correct places!? (Key words, order, etc)

That also makes me wax nostalgic for earlier 10 cylinder VW Touareg!

I just received the 2009 to 2014 2.0 L TDI VW gen 1 AT. paper work/broilerplate.

ruking1

2018 Chevrolet Equinox diesel, 240 # ft.http://blog.caranddriver.com/cheaper-by-the-diesel-2018-chevrolet-equinox-diesel-priced-at-31435-nears-40-mpg/?ref=yfp

Michaell

ruking1 said:

2018 Chevrolet Equinox diesel, 240 # ft.http://blog.caranddriver.com/cheaper-by-the-diesel-2018-chevrolet-equinox-diesel-priced-at-31435-nears-40-mpg/?ref=yfp

I'm a bit surprised it won't get 40 MPG on the highway. Too much weight?

ruking1

To those of us who have experienced TDI's (in my case: 1.9 L, 2.0 L, 2.1 L, 3.0 L) with 5/6/7/8/9 speed A/T's & M/T's, its inexplicable, sans the cost & appropriateness in market factors. . To those used to gasoline (1.5 L) & 6 sp A/T. it can be a thrill to get closed to, nail, exceed 39 mph! Use of the 1.6 L engine rather than larger L engine, indicates mpg was a major goal. I'm sure the gasoline/TDI torque contrast will be thrilling as well.

On a number of issues, the Equinox is interesting. It's a GM/China (state owned) foreign market product, made in China. It's long in the tooth. It lost traction in those markets. There are huge minorities of union ownership of GM shares. The union has 2 seats on the board & appoints key executives & ratifies major decisions. I'm not sure what portions of that stew in the pot that brought it to the US markets!?

Mr_Shiftright

ruking1 said:

Gasoline advocates (95 % to 97% PVF) should find this "ethanol " clip enlightening. Another massive advantage diesel! The environmentalists were forced to admit they were & remain wrong! They now admit ethanol is FAR worse for the environment than gasoline!!! For every gal of ethanol, there are $1.78 GOVERNMENT subsidies, not including jacked up commodities prices. ( over gasoline) https://youtu.be/OFTcmORherM

It wan't "environmentalists"--it was the farm lobby. They cashed in on ethanol.

Mr_Shiftright

fintail said:

The dealer people said they field many inquiries about diesels, but I don't know if that niche would be enough for a return. I guess having more than zero demand can only help. A new larger engined C diesel with the 9 speed might be amazingly economical, yet swift.

At the MBCA event yesterday, there as a private import 2002 S400 CDi, which was a short run V8 diesel. Unusual car, owner was quite happy with it.

Mazda is upping their game on gasoline engine technology:

http://www.alphr.com/cars/1006574/mazda-s-new-breakthrough-just-killed-diesel-engines-once-and-for-all

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

ruking1 said:

Gasoline advocates (95 % to 97% PVF) should find this "ethanol " clip enlightening. Another massive advantage diesel! The environmentalists were forced to admit they were & remain wrong! They now admit ethanol is FAR worse for the environment than gasoline!!! For every gal of ethanol, there are $1.78 GOVERNMENT subsidies, not including jacked up commodities prices. ( over gasoline) https://youtu.be/OFTcmORherM

It wan't "environmentalists"--it was the farm lobby. They cashed in on ethanol.

Of course the farm lobby & corn farmers benefits & will continue to ! But to say that the environmentalists had absolutely nothing to do with it is @ best revisionist history . So to me, the answers are pretty simple. Offer rug/pug with and without 10 to 15% ethanol. Drop "ethanol" subsidies. Drop the " mandator"portion. I already know what the most probable outcomes will be and probably so do you !?

ruking1

Mr_Shiftright said:

fintail said:

The dealer people said they field many inquiries about diesels, but I don't know if that niche would be enough for a return. I guess having more than zero demand can only help. A new larger engined C diesel with the 9 speed might be amazingly economical, yet swift.

At the MBCA event yesterday, there as a private import 2002 S400 CDi, which was a short run V8 diesel. Unusual car, owner was quite happy with it.

Mazda is upping their game on gasoline engine technology:

http://www.alphr.com/cars/1006574/mazda-s-new-breakthrough-just-killed-diesel-engines-once-and-for-all

Indeed to NOT give credit to efforts like Mazda's to "tilt windmills" so to speak would be a shade against transparency. Indeed, I wonder out loud how many tax credits, write off's and other concessions Mazda & Toyota are receiving for efforts like these.

The gas/ hybrid took app 17 years (2000) to get on car reviewers longer term hit parades. Natural gas seems to be a bust. The rotary engine died out. EV reports indicate way more efforts are in order. So the verdicts are way away !! To me the acid test would be 35 to 40 mpg on the (now) Mazda CX-9. (mid size CUV)

Again trying to get rid of the 3 to 5% diesel is not even addressed by the barrel of oil ratio 19 gals rug,pug/13 gal ULSD. This would also mean that there is a measure of foot to use more barrels of oil, i.e. 3 to 5% to 10 % MORE.

fintail

Mazda engine is interesting, but most of the cars it could be attached to kind of leave me cold. At least they don't have clown faces anymore. It'll be interesting how that plays out in real world use.

gagrice

Didn't Ford make claims their Eco-Boost would be the end of diesel engines. That is a Huge flop according to some reviews. Getting well below EPA mileage. I think it is all hype from Mazda. I am thinking the Equinox will be a decent runabout with that diesel engine. I would be tickled with a CUV getting 30 MPG around town and close to 40 on trips out of town. Also with only GM and Jeep represented in my new home town, my options are limited. Not going to drive 50-70 miles from home for service.

Michaell

ruking1 said:

On a number of issues, the Equinox is interesting. It's a GM/China (state owned) foreign market product, made in China. It's long in the tooth. It lost traction in those markets. There are huge minorities of union ownership of GM shares. The union has 2 seats on the board & appoints key executives & ratifies major decisions. I'm not sure what portions of that stew in the pot that brought it to the US markets!?

The current generation Equinox is produced in Ontario, Canada.

Only the 3.4L V6 engine of the gen 1 Equinox was made in China.

ruking1

Then the questions becomes what % comes from where & were they offered in China? Just because an unknown % was made in Ontario, CN does not ban/preclude it being made / assembled n China. Mexico, etc. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Equinox. RE: per your post V-6 (100%?) made in China.

It's a great TDI starter.

The 6 sp TDI would almost be a deal breaker, for me. For me, it would be in the running with 2.0 to 2.5 L, twin turbo, 250 # ft to 375# ft, 8/9 sp A/T.

Michaell

ruking1 said:

Then the questions becomes what % comes from where & were they offered in China? Just because an unknown % was made in Ontario, CN does not ban/preclude it being made / assembled n China. RE: per your post V-6 (100%?) made in China.

It's a great TDI starter.

The 6 sp TDI would almost be a deal breaker, for me. For me, it would be in the running with 2.0 to 2.5 L, twin turbo, 250 # ft to 375# ft, 8/9 sp A/T.

Everything you wanted to know (or not) about the Equinox:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Equinox

Only the current (3rd) generation Equinox is being built in a facility outside North America. Gen I and Gen II were built either in Canada or the old Saturn facility in TN.

Mr_Shiftright

fintail said:

Mazda engine is interesting, but most of the cars it could be attached to kind of leave me cold. At least they don't have clown faces anymore. It'll be interesting how that plays out in real world use.

I think the point of the article was that the gasoline engine is still evolving technologically. Certainly one could at least say that in the last 30 years or so gasoline engines have markedly "closed the gap" on diesel power and economy.

fintail

Closing the gap, but IMO not even yet, and this new tech will need baptism by real world use.

These hyper-efficient gasoline engines make me think most about torque, and if they will have any.

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think the point of the article was that the gasoline engine is still evolving technologically. Certainly one could at least say that in the last 30 years or so gasoline engines have markedly "closed the gap" on diesel power and economy.

ruking1

fintail said:

Closing the gap, but IMO not even yet, and this new tech will need baptism by real world use.

These hyper-efficient gasoline engines make me think most about torque, and if they will have any.

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think the point of the article was that the gasoline engine is still evolving technologically. Certainly one could at least say that in the last 30 years or so gasoline engines have markedly "closed the gap" on diesel power and economy.

The (Shiftright) position diesels are standing still is inexplicable!? The 2014 MB GLK 250 BT posts 36 mpg ULSD vs PUG @ 21 mpg or 15 mpg behind. Diesel posts 71% better! # ft torque 369 vs 273 = 96. # ft.

However the message is clear, PVF diesels are being decimated to exterminated.

gagrice

The fact that GM is willing to buck the trend makes me want to support them. If FCA could ever get their act together I likely would have bought the Jeep Grand Cherokee in 2013. They are still flailing with diesel. Have never seen one for sale. I would not buy an Equinox for long road drives. Not even sure I would like driving the GMC Canyon diesel on a long road trip. I don't expect to ever own a better vehicle for long road trips than the Touareg TDI. If they don't buy back and just give me the $13k and an approved fix, I will try to get an extended warranty. Or put the money aside for any repairs. I kind of like the looks of it sitting in front of our new home in Nevada.

ruking1

I prefer the white! Mine was the darker flint ometallic grey with black interior. The darker interior had a calming effect, especially over long distances (3 hrs,210 miles)

I already omiss the 2012 VW Touareg! The engineering even now, many years ago, remains hard to duplicate, let alone exceed. It was a great deal when bought new in 2012. The 2017 VW buy back was even better!

kyfdx

That Touareg looks great! I'd have a hard time giving it up, especially since it's been discontinued.

gagrice

kyfdx said:

That Touareg looks great! I'd have a hard time giving it up, especially since it's been discontinued.

At this point the ball is in VW's court. As long as they continue the warranty until they come up with a solution. I will keep enjoying the ride. Two things could happen if I keep it. The value could go in the toilet with a poor fix. Or it could become a collector's car for those of us that are gungho diesel fans. Waiting on VW....

kyfdx

gagrice said:

kyfdx said:

That Touareg looks great! I'd have a hard time giving it up, especially since it's been discontinued.

At this point the ball is in VW's court. As long as they continue the warranty until they come up with a solution. I will keep enjoying the ride. Two things could happen if I keep it. The value could go in the toilet with a poor fix. Or it could become a collector's car for those of us that are gungho diesel fans. Waiting on VW....

I wouldn't worry too much about a DEF model having any issues, post-fix. Not too sure about that 2.0 litre fix, though. Guessing they might lose some MPGs.

andres3

gagrice said:

The fact that GM is willing to buck the trend makes me want to support them. If FCA could ever get their act together I likely would have bought the Jeep Grand Cherokee in 2013. They are still flailing with diesel. Have never seen one for sale. I would not buy an Equinox for long road drives. Not even sure I would like driving the GMC Canyon diesel on a long road trip. I don't expect to ever own a better vehicle for long road trips than the Touareg TDI. If they don't buy back and just give me the $13k and an approved fix, I will try to get an extended warranty. Or put the money aside for any repairs. I kind of like the looks of it sitting in front of our new home in Nevada.

That is a great SUV.

Do you know where it was built/assembled? I'd have more trust in the long term durability if it was not Mexico. However, I will say our Golf Sportwagen and Golf Alltrack have been very reliable in the 24K miles between the 2.

fintail

I think the Touareg is built in Slovakia, just outside Bratislava.

Michaell

Looks like GM is courting all the disaffected VW diesel owners.

ruking1

Further, they are built on the same line as the Porsche Cayenne. The more custom Porsche work is done in another place & line. Indeed the Porsche Cayenne was & probably still is the secret to Porsches sales success!

I ran the 2012 VW Touareg TDI through the Edmunds.com used car site. It posted a price from just under $25,000 to $18,300 in outstanding condition.

gagrice

Michaell said:

Looks like GM is courting all the disaffected VW diesel owners.

They are spot on. I would never own another gas vehicle. And GM will get my business if they build what I want. I love German engineering, but have no problem putting GM diesels in my garage. I might add one of our old Edmund's friends Rocky is in love with his Cruze diesel. Hoping to get the new one when his lease is up in November. He was a real skeptic until he leased one. Of course he would rather have a Tesla. Not really in his beer budget.

Mr_Shiftright

ruking1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

ruking1 said:

Gasoline advocates (95 % to 97% PVF) should find this "ethanol " clip enlightening. Another massive advantage diesel! The environmentalists were forced to admit they were & remain wrong! They now admit ethanol is FAR worse for the environment than gasoline!!! For every gal of ethanol, there are $1.78 GOVERNMENT subsidies, not including jacked up commodities prices. ( over gasoline) https://youtu.be/OFTcmORherM

It wan't "environmentalists"--it was the farm lobby. They cashed in on ethanol.

Of course the farm lobby & corn farmers benefits & will continue to ! But to say that the environmentalists had absolutely nothing to do with it is @ best revisionist history . So to me, the answers are pretty simple. Offer rug/pug with and without 10 to 15% ethanol. Drop "ethanol" subsidies. Drop the " mandator"portion. I already know what the most probable outcomes will be and probably so do you !?

It was a series of government mandates going way back to the Reagan era that created the ethanol industry initially

gagrice said:

The fact that GM is willing to buck the trend makes me want to support them. If FCA could ever get their act together I likely would have bought the Jeep Grand Cherokee in 2013. They are still flailing with diesel. Have never seen one for sale. I would not buy an Equinox for long road drives. Not even sure I would like driving the GMC Canyon diesel on a long road trip. I don't expect to ever own a better vehicle for long road trips than the Touareg TDI. If they don't buy back and just give me the $13k and an approved fix, I will try to get an extended warranty. Or put the money aside for any repairs. I kind of like the looks of it sitting in front of our new home in Nevada.

There's a place for diesels in heavier/larger vehicles, but in passenger cars, it doesn't look like much of a future.

ruking1

The 3 to 5 % PVF= 14.065 M diesels (2015 NHTSA = 281.3 M units), with 50% being CARS, 50% cars to "light trucks" flies in the face of that assertion.

With 100% of those VW "dieselgate" cars (app 500,000 units, but 485,000 is often officially cited) getting approved fixes (EPA/CARB ) in theory, ALL are returnable to the PVF.

So by now, I think everybody knows that there are forces afoot that want to institutionalize the burning of MORE gasoline, & more ethanol rather than less! While that might sound BAD for diesels, the banning makes US diesel inventories better than flush. It also keeps the price of gasoline LOW!

fintail

Heavier/larger vehicles like say a 4000lb car?

ruking1

Would I buy my 4,975 # mid size CUV back? In a heartbeat, absolutely! @ $18,300 to $25,000 ? Oh yeah! However the jury is still out on the 2012 VW Touareg approved fix.

A twin turbo supercharger would be almost wild! It would fly even better with a 300 # diet!

gagrice

In 1979, President Jimmy Carter's administration creates federal incentives for ethanol production. Federal and state subsidies for ethanol amount to about $11 billion between 1979 and 2000

ruking1

With all praise & accolades, JC POTUS was a GA peanut farmer. That past career didn't help put him in the best presidents category. Indeed some of the best "corn" whiskey (bourbon is 51% minimum? corn) is from the south.

Indeed when cars got its start, diesel production (from plants & other sources) was an almost go to product. So was ethanol. jD Rockefeller, on the other hand had way too much waste in gasoline from oil refining, ergo wanted/needed to fine a use/useful outlet.

So the answer is to use LESS imported barrels of oil! Or so that is the professed goal.

I've been pointing out (using gasoline 19 gal/ ULSD 13 gals. i.e.,) 50 to 60% diesels. Gas hybrid, diesel hybrid, EV, ethanol, E85, natural gas, etc. are other markets. Indeed most of the problems have been caused trying TO convert the whole PVF TO gasoline!!!!

In effect, ethanol burning has ZERO emissions mitigation, while cars built to run gasoline does! Even with ethanol emissions mitigation, it's still worse! Even environmentals were forced by the facts to admit the truth. They were majorly wrong! Not that the pig-headedness is something to cheer about. I've even posted the EPA/CARB had to grant MASSIVE exemptions for MASSIVE pollution due to ethanol burning!!

I am so glad the hosts pointed out the farm & ethanol industries, etc. & lobby cabals.

ruking1

Speaking of corn! http://blog.caranddriver.com/corn-nuts-bill-to-squeeze-more-ethanol-into-gas-tanks-is-stalled-for-now/?ref=yfp

Mr_Shiftright

fintail said:

Heavier/larger vehicles like say a 4000lb car?

No, more like SUVs, pickup trucks, commercial "light" vans and trucks, that sort of thing. I think diesels in sedans or hatchbacks are dead, dead, dead.

You have to keep in mind the "psychology" of diesels in the American mind. It associates diesels with power, ruggedness, hard work, towing much more than penny-pinching economy. This is a different attitude than the European driver might have when thinking about diesel power.

VW had the opportunity to break this cultural barrier and they blew it, and I don't think they'll get a second chance at it.

Everybody who wants a diesel sedan or hatch already has one, or just got rid of one. The market is totally stagnant.

ruking1

Edmunds.com, among others have & continue to document the extreme stagnation of the small car/sedan market segments. So who really knows when it will turn around. So if VW didn't learn anything from the so called "diesel gate" beating,... shame on VW!

I'm guessing the segment is down from 25% small cars. I'm guessing the mid sized cars to light trucks have expanded from 75%.