Real-World Trade-In Values

g8orgrant

Yeah, I was thinking about writing a letter to someone, although in this day and age of corporate ownership of so many dealerships, I'm not even sure how I go about finding someone who might actually care.

There had been a hypothesis here earlier that maybe the car had to go to auction, and that jived with the idea of insurance on the residual for the bank. But for me to have turned it in on Friday and it's already showing as a CPO shows that there's a process in place for this.

What's also interesting, and I didn't mention in my earlier post, was that after my local dealer told me no, I contacted a second local dealership and explained what i was trying to do. I didn't get directly to a manager there, but through the sales person, this dealer was insistent that residuals are not negotiable.

Perhaps there's something in place like @kyfdx suggested. But even if so, than why not be up-front and just explain that. Certainly would have been more plausible than telling me the car may wind up in the midwest (I'm on Long Island). And maybe I'd have considered taking a different CPO car from him or leasing something new.

nyccarguy

@g8orgrant - also, make sure you don't cut your nose off to spite your face. If you really like the car you leased and want to buy it out CPO, then go for it. Go in, see if NOW they will negotiate with you. Yes it might be more expensive than some others on his lot, but you do have the advantage of knowing the previous owner . Thanks for keeping us updated & please continue to do so. We want to know what you end up with.

g8orgrant

I'm actually pretty far down the road on a lease of an Infiniti Q50 AWD base with moonroof. MSRP $41K. $315/month with 1st month and DMV up-front. 39 months, 10K. It's such a great deal that I'm not sure if it's worth going back to the S60 at that point. I'd be looking at about $450'ish/month, or a smidge more, on a 48 month loan. So in 48 months, I own the car free and clear, but whatever it's worth needs to be offset by the extra $140-$150/month I'm paying over the next 48 months.

I did think about it, but there's too much value in the brand new one at only $315/month.

Michaell

g8orgrant said:

I'm actually pretty far down the road on a lease of an Infiniti Q50 AWD base with moonroof. MSRP $41K. $315/month with 1st month and DMV up-front. 39 months, 10K. It's such a great deal that I'm not sure if it's worth going back to the S60 at that point. I'd be looking at about $450'ish/month, or a smidge more, on a 48 month loan. So in 48 months, I own the car free and clear, but whatever it's worth needs to be offset by the extra $140-$150/month I'm paying over the next 48 months.

I did think about it, but there's too much value in the brand new one at only $315/month.

Yeah, $315/mo for a new Q50 is a smoking deal.

nyccarguy

g8orgrant said:

I'm actually pretty far down the road on a lease of an Infiniti Q50 AWD base with moonroof. MSRP $41K. $315/month with 1st month and DMV up-front. 39 months, 10K. It's such a great deal that I'm not sure if it's worth going back to the S60 at that point. I'd be looking at about $450'ish/month, or a smidge more, on a 48 month loan. So in 48 months, I own the car free and clear, but whatever it's worth needs to be offset by the extra $140-$150/month I'm paying over the next 48 months.

I did think about it, but there's too much value in the brand new one at only $315/month.

I always preach new over used, especially if you are going to be making payments anyway. The Q50 is a really sweet car & they seem like they can be had for good deals now. My only problem with leasing is that I drive over 20K miles per year, so the monthly payments don't go that cheap for me.

g8orgrant

Well as the guy who returned (albeit after trying to buy it CPO) a 2012 S60 with 13K miles, the mileage on leases isn't a problem.

nyccarguy

Nice!  That's so little driving.  I bought my car at the end of last September & have close to 18K miles on it.  You live on Long Island?  Drive to the train station & back 5 days a week?

g8orgrant

Yup, 5 days round trip to the train. < 2 miles each way. Nights out with the wife, and occasional trip. But we also have a QX60 for lugging the family around, so most of the non-commuting drives are still only 5-10 miles at a time.

Maybe I'll have better luck buying this one at the end of the lease . It's a 56% residual after 39 months. Car's too new, and too much can change sin 3+ years, to really have a sense as to whether there's some value there at the end. I'd hope if I'm under miles there might be, but was totally off on the S60.

stickguy

Dealer was right. Residual is fixed so had to go back. Dealers do have special auctions for returns though, so my guess, they do it kind of like eBay. Dealer reports the return, and someone at Volvo credit puts a BIN price out, with dealer holding unit maybe getting first dibs.

So in theory, it did revert to Volvo credit, and was auctioned to dealer at market value.

Bottom line, you obviously didn't really want it, because if they listed at $21, your 20k target seems reasonable!

And don't worry, if there was an option for the sales manager to make a quick buck by doing a little paperwork and never touching the car, he would have!

xwesx

@g8orgrant - Yeah, what a run-around.

Offer them $19.5K on the S60 and if they balk, take the lease! Honestly, with the miles you drive, you could easily keep the S60 for a decade and still have a new car. The lease on the Infiniti doesn't build any equity, and that's still a lot of scratch for something you barely use.

g8orgrant

@ stickguy - that's pretty interesting. Not sure if it's something the dealer could have better articulated, or perhaps even suggested that it could play out that way. I mean, if there's a case where the dealer with the car gets first dibs, than the path to me re-buying it could have been crystal clear, especially if I brought the car to the dealer I wanted to buy from. Whatever the value was on 8/14 (turn in date) wasn't all that different from what it would have been on 7/31 (when I visited the dealer), and if nothing else, the dealer would have known what an approximate cost for him was, and could have said "you know, i can cpo it and sell it right back to you for $20k". That'd have been a long way down the path toward getting a deal done.

I might have been more interested other than the fact that I spent the last 2+ weeks after meeting with the local Volvo dealer trying to find another car. He seemed pretty insistent that he wasn't going to keep my car, and I didn't feel like having to watch the car wind through a real auction process or needing to find a proxy-bidder for me. Plus I really did want it CPO'ed, since Volvo has one of the top 3-4 CPO programs around.

@xwesx - The lease doesn't generally build equity, unless your combo of being under miles and/or a strong resale market helps you. I had previously leased an 08 Santa Fe, and while I wasn't that far under mileage when it went back in 2011, I was able to buy it on behalf of a family member who wanted it. There was a decent chunk of equity in it, so she got a great deal on it, and I got a few $ back toward the payments I had made the previous 36 months.

nyccarguy

@g8orgrant - how do you like your QX60?

g8orgrant

@nyccarguy - i really like it. It's primarily my wife's truck, but I'll drive it on the weekends.  It's the antithesis of my 2011 ml 350 which I hated from the get go. As our kids get older the extra space is definitely appreciated and I really do like the way it rides.  I added the deluxe touring which gives upgraded wheels, panoramic moonroof and ventilated seats, and I think we all enjoy the extra natural light from the larger moonroof. 

steine13

@g8orgrant -
>> So I turned it in on Friday, and it's already on his lot as a CPO for $21K. I recently had some back and forth here[..]

I'm late to the party here, having been on vacation..
My first reaction was the same as nyccarguy's: If you like it, try to buy it for your price.

I understand why the dealer did what they did -- for one thing, they're tired of having their profit structure laid open, and it is in fact none of your business. But then, you didn't really care about their $$ -- you cared about your$, which would have been my approach.

From the dealer's POV, he is in a better position -- he has many potential customers, plus he has you. And by tipping your hand, you made the car more valuable to him: You're obviously a car guy, and you're the previous owner, and you want it... so he knows it's a good car! It's not like they don't buy the occasional turd at auction; there's no magic involved.

As far as they giving you the runaround.. I don't know how to say this, but there's the truth, and there's lying, and then there's what you say when you negotiate. "We've got more than that in it" says the dealer, and on craigslist, the private seller says, "I really can't sell it if i don't get X".
That's just the sound of negotiation and there's nothing wrong with it.

The dealer should have said, "I appreciate what you're saying, but that's not how we operate. I'll take the car in at lease end, and then I have to bid on it if I want it. And I'll only want it for my business and all my customers -- that makes more sense than limiting myself to just one customer."
And 80% of car buyers would have been put off by THAT statement, so whatever they do is wrong, so they just gave you the stiff arm. I'm not in the business... could be they handled it perfectly.

And don't write letters of complaint, unless you have a specific remedy in mind -- and I can't think of one.
You're not their nanny.

Welcome to the car business. I find it endlessly fascinating, but it sure is weird.
Also it's 04:30 and I have jet lag, so I've got time to ramble on edmunds...

Cheers -Mathias

qbrozen

steine13 said:

The dealer should have said, "I appreciate what you're saying, but that's not how we operate. I'll take the car in at lease end, and then I have to bid on it if I want it. And I'll only want it for my business and all my customers -- that makes more sense than limiting myself to just one customer."
And 80% of car buyers would have been put off by THAT statement, so whatever they do is wrong, so they just gave you the stiff arm. I'm not in the business... could be they handled it perfectly.

Put off? Maybe. But flat-out fibbing to a customer is never the right course of action. That puts off 100%.

Mr_Shiftright

Neighbor of mine has a 1996 Lexus SC300, 37,000 original miles, immaculate car. SF Bay Area. I thought if he was patient he might get $7500 for it. Ideas?

qbrozen

hell, I have almost no clue. No data to go on, of course, so its totally a matter of desire.

What's the color combo? White over tan, perhaps? Probably the best to hope for. Maybe black over black, but I think that would attract a younger crowd with less money.(?) hmmm... I would imagine the 100k mile examples are commanding maybe $4k? $4500? For some reason I can't describe, $6500 strikes me as the right number, but certainly someone out there would pay more.

kyfdx

Now.. if it only had a stick..

henryn

2013 Ford F150 XLT Crew Cab (Supercrew, in Ford speak)
5.0 V8
6 speed auto
color: Blue Jeans Blue
Texas Edition
301a equipment package
bench seat, cloth upholstery, side steps, trailer towing, 18 inch chrome wheels

miles: 8,400
original owner, perfect condition, one oil change

location: Houston, TX

Trade in value, please?

Thanks in advance,
Henry

qbrozen

4wd, yes?
somewhere in the $27k-$28k zip code.

henryn

qbrozen said:

4wd, yes?
somewhere in the $27k-$28k zip code.

And here I tried so hard to remember everything!

Not 4WD, only 2WD

kyfdx

2008 BMW 135i

https://raleigh.craigslist.org/cto/5190834327.html

Put a number on that, please..

Thanks!

roadburner

Nice! MB of Fort Mitchell has an M235i but it's an automatic and they are asking $41k...

qbrozen

henryn said:

qbrozen said:

4wd, yes?
somewhere in the $27k-$28k zip code.

And here I tried so hard to remember everything!

Not 4WD, only 2WD

Oh, then make that $26k

qbrozen

kyfdx said:

2008 BMW 135i

https://raleigh.craigslist.org/cto/5190834327.html

Put a number on that, please..

Thanks!

He meant Premium package, not Performance package.

$16k, tops, private party. Then budget for the HPFP every 30k or so, walnut blasting the intake and valves every 40-50k, and vanos sensors with what seems like every oil change. ;b

kyfdx

qbrozen said:

kyfdx said:

2008 BMW 135i

https://raleigh.craigslist.org/cto/5190834327.html

Put a number on that, please..

Thanks!

He meant Premium package, not Performance package.

$16k, tops, private party. Then budget for the HPFP every 30k or so, walnut blasting the intake and valves every 40-50k, and vanos sensors with what seems like every oil change. ;b

That's okay.. I only drive 11K/yr now. ;-)

And, yeah... I caught the premium package thing. I like that it's a one owner with low miles. And, that interior color! ( and, stick-shift + 300 hp. lol)

stickguy

OK, that BMW is a nice looking car. love the interior. and stick.

robr2

Here's another:

2014 Mazda 6 Grand Touring
24K miles
Silver over Gray leather
Auto
All the usual Grand Touring items
No Nav
Boston Area

Here's a link:

http://www.boch.com/certified/Mazda/2014-Mazda-Mazda6-c43b57d40a0a0065040020d8bb4d4eff.htm

qbrozen

$22k? CPO? That's remarkably cheap. Auction value is right around $20k.

stickguy

I like that 6. a bit more miles than I am comfy with on a 14 for that much money. Nice car though.

explorerx4

I see a few cars in my neighborhood with Boch badges on them.

robr2

stickguy said:

I like that 6. a bit more miles than I am comfy with on a 14 for that much money. Nice car though.

Per carfax, it was first registered in May of 2013. The 2014 Mazda6 came out early in 2013 so this one has averaged about 12K per year.

robr2

qbrozen said:

$22k? CPO? That's remarkably cheap. Auction value is right around $20k.

Not CPO. I'll go check it out now that I know it's a solid number.

qbrozen

Then why do they have a little mazda cpo symbol on the webpage?

explorerx4

The description says 'Dealer Certified', which is a bit confusing.

stickguy

I was wondering that too. They tout the dealer certification (lifetime engine guarantee?) but looking at the carfax, it was never certified by mazda, since it was bought at auction by a Honda dealer. I don't think they can sell it as certified even if there is a Mazda dealer in the family. So that might be a stray symbol, but odd for a Honda dealer to have that.

henryn

qbrozen said:

henryn said:

qbrozen said:

4wd, yes?
somewhere in the $27k-$28k zip code.

And here I tried so hard to remember everything!

Not 4WD, only 2WD

Oh, then make that $26k

It's a strange world out there. About a year ago this truck was worth $24k to the dealer, and $25.5 to CarMax. This year, I'm getting almost exactly the same offer from a dealer (start at $22k, jump to $23.5).

I think this is due to the new trucks getting more expensive, so a late model low mileage is holding steady or even increasing in value.

Last fall, a closeout 2014 Ford F150 like mine was about $29k. This year, the 2015 models seem to be about $33k. Equivalent Chevy Silverado is about $31k, due to more rebates / incentives on the Chevy. From what I've read, Ford has had problems keeping up production on these new aluminum body trucks. Looking at available inventories from the local big dealers, the Ford dealers have far fewer new trucks in stock.

Makes me wonder if this is the year Chevy finally overtakes Ford in truck sales?

qbrozen

hmmm... I'd certainly be arguing with them about that Mazda. It says Mazda Certified Pre-Owned right there on the ad. As a matter of fact, they have 3 mazdas that all say they are mazda CPO. Definitely worth checking out.

robr2

I find it odd as well because Boch doesn't have a Mazda store. I'll try and go by there tomorrow.

kyfdx

So.. this is how it starts.

2011 135i, this time..
https://newhaven.craigslist.org/cto/5153080681.html

As always, thanks!

stickguy

That one I like. Sounds like perfect prior owner too!

kyfdx

stickguy said:

That one I like. Sounds like perfect prior owner too!

Maybe you could chip in? I'll let you drive it, when you are in town.

roadburner

My turn- per my wife's request: 2013 CPO 135i M Sport
It seems to have every option available...

qbrozen

tough one. good miles and color. But manual trans, no nav, and snowbelt in September. I'm gonna say... oh, boy... $21k trade, $22k auction, $24k purchase. I could be a little high.

kyfdx

qbrozen said:

tough one. good miles and color. But manual trans, no nav, and snowbelt in September. I'm gonna say... oh, boy... $21k trade, $22k auction, $24k purchase. I could be a little high.

Thanks! At least he isn't starting at an unreasonable number.

stickguy

So KY, hop on a plane with 220 Benjamin's to wave under his nose, and drive it home!

nyccarguy

kyfdx said:

qbrozen said:

tough one. good miles and color. But manual trans, no nav, and snowbelt in September. I'm gonna say... oh, boy... $21k trade, $22k auction, $24k purchase. I could be a little high.

Thanks! At least he isn't starting at an unreasonable number.

Get me the guy's address and contact information and I'll arrange to meet with him on your behalf.

kyfdx

Quit pushing already!! lol

Still mulling this over.. thanks for the support, though.

robr2

robr2 said:

Here's another:

2014 Mazda 6 Grand Touring
24K miles
Silver over Gray leather
Auto
All the usual Grand Touring items
No Nav
Boston Area

Here's a link:

http://www.boch.com/certified/Mazda/2014-Mazda-Mazda6-c43b57d40a0a0065040020d8bb4d4eff.htm

I went and checked this out. It now has 28K miles as the finance manager has been driving it since they bought it at auction in May. It's black leather and does have NAV. It is NOT CPO. I test drove it and it's really a nice driving car.

They say their cost on the unit is about $24K including 2 new tires and a synthetic oil change. I kind of balked on it as it was the first car I drove. I am looking at another one at around the same price. It's red and carfax shows a rear end accident. I am also checking out Volvo S60's at more money.

The used car manager said they may consider sending it off to auction was open to an offer should they decide to do so.

So q - the $21,993 still sound fair?

qbrozen

$22k is still fair, but that whole CPO thing rubs me the wrong way.

I've seen a number of CPO S60s for less. 2012s-2013s with 3-4 years of warranty for $18k'ish-$20k.