I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

lemmer

Found a '29 Buick Sedan for you

Mr_Shiftright

More like .15 cents for that pile of rubble. Where do people get these crazy notions about value from?

fintail

The 33-34 Buick had kind of a pretty grille

Here's a 29 from my own collection...I know exactly where this was taken too, looks almost identical today (probably the same pavement)

texases

C'mon, it's 'Cairo Green'! That's gotta be worth another $0.25, at least...

lemko

Looks like a sedan some Okie converted into a truck. It's probably been sitting there since the Depression.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm looking at an entire complete 29 Buick with decent upholstery and faded paint that ran 5 years ago for $3000. How could anyone justify paying $1500 for what looks to me to be scrap metal at X dollars per pound (if they even want it).

I think this is the first car posted here that I would appraise as "worthless".

lemmer

Yard art at best.

texases

It is amazing, almost like they have a hulk with a valuable VIN # that someone would want to transfer. '29 Buick? I kinda doubt that...

andys120

It's common to see relatively low end, decades old rust free cars (and trucks) being daily driven
in Arizona; today I saw two-

-1960 Chevrolet 4-poster, low end, I think it was a 210, Blue roof over white, dog-dish hub covers. Some dings and not much luster to paint. It's amazing how tall these look in modern traffic.

-1966-ish Ford Fairlane H/T coupe, pale yellow. Didn't get a long enough look to check for engine badges etc. but looked like a decent unmolested original.

lemko

By 1960, the low end Chevrolet would've been a Biscayne. Chevrolet dropped the 210 designation after 1957. The 1960 equivalent of the 210 would've been a Bel Air. The 150 equivalent was the Biscayne.

andys120

Kinda confusing how they moved those names from the top to the bottom of the line isn't? The Bel Air was the top Chevy until 1958 IIRC.

The car I saw had four taillights, a contrasting color on a side moulding and just looked low end with the four-poster body and dog dishes.

I don't know if it was a Biscayne or Bel Air

berri

Did they still have the strippo, no armrest, no heater, no nothin' Chevy Delray in 1960, or was that a one year 58 model line?

Mr_Shiftright

Nope, 1958 was it for the Delray.

explorerx4

I think it looked more like this

andre1969

Yeah, I think the 150/210/Bel Air lineup pretty much became Delray/Biscayne/Bel Air for 1958. Impala was a sub-series that year of the Bel Air, and not really it's own model.

When the Impala became a full range for 1959, I'd always thought that Chevy just bumped the Delray and moved the Biscayne and Bel Air down a notch, but I don't think that was the case. I believe a '59 Biscayne was pretty much the same in status as a '58. And a '59 Bel Air was priced around the same as a '58, with the Impala coming in aorund $150 more, although the convertible and hardtop were priced around the same as their 1958 counterparts.

But, when you factor in inflation, maybe the fact that those prices stayed the same did mean that each model moved downscale a bit. Ford and Plymouth raised their prices that year

It's interesting that Chevy actually kept the Biscayne around through 1971. That year, the pricing was
$3,448 for a Biscayne 4-door sedan, 350 V-8
$3,585 for a Bel Air 4-door sedan, 350 V-8
$3,742 for an Impala 4-door sedan, 350 V-8

the Caprice was only offered as a hardtop coupe or sedan that year, but the hardtop sedan came in at $4134 compared to the Impala's $3813, so figure the Caprice carried a ~$320 premium over the Impala, so if a Caprice 4-door sedan had been offered thatyear, it would've run around $4062.

Now, I can see the difference between a Caprice and an Impala. The Caprice had a standard 400, versus a 350. And a nicer interior. But what, really, did an Impala give you over a Bel Air? I know the Impala had 3 taillights versus the Bel Air/Biscayne's 2. And the Impala had different seat patterns, and the vinyl portion of the door insert was different. but was there really $157 in difference there? I guess the Impala might have had full wheelcovers, and perhaps larger tires as well.

I wonder what they were doing by that time to differentiate the Biscayne from the Bel Air? $137 might not sound like a big difference, but adjusting for inflation, that's like $715-750 today...not exactly a small chunk of change.

texases

Ah, the coupe verion of the equivalent of today's A4. Not so excited, then...reminds me of a jumbo version of my '79 Scirocco.

ab348

Interesting... according the the oldcarbrochures.com scans of Chevy catalogs, the last year Biscayne was shown is '69.

bhill2

The Standard Catalog (which isn't infallible) indicates that there was indeed a Biscayne even in '72. Also, the Caprice was available in a wagon as well as the coupe and sedan. Chevrolet just named the wagons differently; in this case the Kingswood Estate.

uplanderguy

There was a Biscayne available up through the '72 model year; however, the earlier poster is correct that '69 was the last time it showed up in the regular full-size Chevy brochure. This makes me think the '70 and later Biscaynes were for fleet sales only.

bhill2

You are probably right. It is interesting, however, that in those last 3 years the V-8 outsold the six by more than 10 to 1 in the Biscayne. In 1969 it was 30 to 1. Was the six so gutless by that point that even fleet buyers got the V-8?

kyfdx

In my memory... no one bought 6-cylinders in full-size body cars, in the late '60s, early '70s..

My first car was a ragged out '70 Galaxie... no air, vinyl interior.. and a 302 V-8.

ab348

Does the standard catalog limit itself to the US only? I ask because in Canada I know that the BelAir continued even into the late '70s on the downsized B-bodies even though it was not available in the US. I wonder if the same might be true for the Biscayne a few years earlier.

Speaking of six-cylinders, I knew of a '77 Pontiac up here that had the inline six under the hood. But that was a much smaller car than the preceding dinosaurs.

explorerx4

I had an '80 Scirocco 'S'. Fun little car.

Mr_Shiftright

Here's a very RARE BISCAYNE

imidazol97

I'd like to say it was before my time, but it wasn't. My question is are the red line tires original and correct for that era. I know there were red sidwall lines at one time, but I was thinking a little later than 1968.

Mr_Shiftright

I have no idea. This is from Canada. Canada looks like the US but isn't.

jwilliams2

Firestone Wide Oval red line tires came standard on several '67 cars. I think they made them up until about 1974 or so as did several other tire companies.

texases

Mine was also an "S" - black with a silver/red stripe and a pretty deep air dam (factory). Could have done without the stripe, but it was a very fun car. I put a set of Phoenix Stahflex tires and Boge shocks/struts, and it handled pretty well.

imidazol97

>came standard on several '67 cars.

Thanks.

My memory slipped on the years for that. I should have associated the red stripe with Firestones Oval Tires.

I had Wide Oval tires. I didn't realize that name meant the roundness of the tire rather than the profile. They also didn't last very long. 1967 Mustang.

jwilliams2

1967 Mustang.

Was yours a GT? I had a '67 Cougar GT with the 390 (think it was rated at 335hp) and the rears wore out in about 6-7k as I recall. Course I had a lead foot back then......and I worked for Firestone (30 years) so replacements didn't cost much.

explorerx4

Mine was Black too. I cracked and had to glue up the front air dam several times. My upgrades were a Monza exhaust plus a bigger stereo and speakers in the doors and back deck.
I traded it in on an '83 T'Bird Turbo Coupe.

hpmctorque

Sixes were very rare mainly because full size cars had grown so large and heavy.

bhill2

To answer your question, as far as I can tell the book I am using, the Standard Catalog of American Cars, in fact only includes cars sold in the US.

uplanderguy

I like that Biscayne. Biscaynes of that ilk (396, 427) show up on eBay more often than you might think. I think a lot of people like the 'sleeper' nature of them.

I always liked how the "427" emblem on the '68 big Chevys had a red background instead of black, like all the other engine sizes had. I clearly remember that on a '68 Biscayne 427 cop car in my hometown.

uplanderguy

In answer to Andre's question:

In '71, the Biscayne and BelAir were virtually indistinguishable from the outside...only by nameplates. The Biscayne only had a woven vinyl interior and I'm pretty sure rubber on the floor. The BelAir had a standard cloth interior that had seat trim that was about on-par with what you got in Pontiac Catalinas up until that time, although with no woodgrain trim inside whatsoever.

The '71 Impala added three taillights on each side, wide rocker moldings the length of the car, roof drip moldings, door frame moldings, IMO much better standard cloth seat trim, soft vinyl upper door panels with woodgrain accents, and woodgrain accent on the instrument panel (right side).

imidazol97

>Was yours a GT?

It was a coupe with an option package that inclulded the recessed lights in faux hood scoops. 289 V8 with 3-speed manual. No AC. I also ordered the limited-slip differential which changed the 2.75 rear to a 3.00 ratio. It was quick llittle puppy.

andre1969

I think the American Standard catalogs do limit themselves to US cars, although I think production figures would include cars built in Canada and shipped to the US. I think my '82 Cutlass Supreme was built in Canada.

Here's a 1978 Pontiac brochure from Canada. I notice it's showing a 3-tier lineup of full-sized cars: Laurentian, Catalina, and Parisienne. That probably equated to the Canadian Chevy lineup of Bel Air, Impala, Caprice.

The brochure also looks like it's listing Chevy engines...4.1 6-cyl, 5.0 V-8, 5.7 V-8. In the US, that would've been the 3.8 V-6 (Buick), 4.9 V-8 (Pontiac) 5.7 V-8 (Pontiac in most areas, Oldsmobile in California and similar areas), and 6.6L (Pontiac 400 in most areas, Olds 403 in Cali and similar areas)

Pontiac tended to be more of an equivalent to Chevrolet in Canada, rather than a step up, didn't it? I think every once in awhile they'd offer a US-spec Bonneville, but that was back in the 1960's, perhaps?

I wonder if it was really worth it to offer the Laurentian by this time? The car looks just like a Catalina to me, although inside, the seat looks like it's taxi/police car/fleet spec, and the door panel looks like an Impala door panel with the fake woodgrain removed.

Here's something I've always wondered...what were the full-sized 1982 Canadian Pontiacs like? In the US, the big Pontiac Catalina and Bonneville were dropped after 1981. And in mid-1983, we got the Parisienne, but it was really more like an Impala with slightly different taillights, a Pontiac grille designed to fit into a Chevy header panel, and even a Chevy dashboard, just with four round dials instead of four square ones.

So, were the big Canadian Pontiacs "real" Pontiacs like the 1981, or thinly disguised Chevies, like the 1983-86 Parisienne?

andre1969

Looks like for 1976, the Canadian Pontiac lineup was even more bloated.

They had a Laurentian, Catalina, Parisienne Brougham, and Bonneville/Bonneville Brougham.

The Laurentian looks like it has the Bel Air door panel, and probably Bel Air-grade seats, but I'd guess still a Pontiac,rather than a Chevy dashboard. And for being the stripper, it's interesting that they offered the Laurentian as a 2-door hardtop. The Catalina looks like about the equivalent of the Catalina we had here in the US.

But then the Parisienne Brougham seems like an odd fit. It's trimmed nicer than a Catalina, yet the Catalina offered a bigger engine. Almost seems like they tried to take a Catalina and give you luxury similar to a bonneville, but then go ahead and offer the Bonneville anyway. If nothing else, the two offered different body styles....4-door sedan and hardtop coupe for the Parisienne, and 4-door hardtop and closed coupe for the Bonneville.

ab348

Canadian Pontiacs were always somewhat different in those days. To answer your last question first, the Canadian fullsize Pontiacs in the early 80s were victims of GM corporate's decision to drop the unique B-body Pontiac bodywork and interior, so they took an Impala and put a somewhat unique grille on it. It had the Chevy dashboard, etc. It was similar to the Parisienne that was sold later in the US when they brought the big Pontiacs back.

For reasons I do not fully understand, Pontiac was always a more significant part of the Canadian market than it was in the US, even into the recent last days of the brand. GM Canada and its dealers were hurt a lot by the decision to discontinue Pontiac, as it made decent volume for them. Traditionally, most Canadian GM dealers were either Chev/Olds or Pontiac/Buick/GMC pairings, with Cadillac a wild card that could go to either. When Pontiac disappeared those dealers had little left to sell.

GM Canada tended to make Pontiac mirror Chevy almost exactly until the late 60s in terms of engine/chassis -- the real Pontiac engines did not get offered here until the late 60s muscle cars showed up, and a "wide-track" Pontiac of the 60s wasn't wide track in Canada, because it had the Chevy chassis. It made some of the big Pontiacs look pretty crazy, with their front wheels inset into the body quite a bit. But in any event, your hypothesis is correct. In the 60s, Pontiac's full-size line in Canada looked like this from low-end Biscayne equivalent on up:

Strato Chief
Laurentian
Parisienne

Then in the mid-60s they introduced the Custom Sport 2+2, which was an upscale coupe that took some Grand Prix and Bonneville trim pieces but did not have the unique GP roofline.

During this same period we did not get the LeMans A-body, but Pontiac dealers instead sold the Beaumont, which was a Chevelle with a different grille and taillight treatment with Chevy drivetrains.

At some point - I want to say '69 or '70 but I may be wrong, it might have been later than that -- GM Canada began to introduce American Pontiac model names (at least, I dunno if they went with the entire design or just the model name) to the Canadian market. So at one point I'm pretty sure you could buy a Parisienne or a Catalina simultaneously in Canada.

It was all very confusing. I think it originally had something to do with import duties and the fact that it was easy for GM Canada to build a Pontiac body but not so easy to build Pontiac engines and chassis, and so prior to the auto pact of the mid-60s they avoided paying duties on importing those Pontiac components by substituting Chevy items.

andys120

For reasons I do not fully understand, Pontiac was always a more significant part of the Canadian market than it was in the US

I don't understand it either, nor do I understand why GM would go to the trouble of adapting Ponchos to use Chevy hardware. That would seem a big expense to serve a relatively small market (no offense).

andre1969

I don't understand it either, nor do I understand why GM would go to the trouble of adapting Ponchos to use Chevy hardware. That would seem a big expense to serve a relatively small market (no offense).

Well in those days, Pontiac was usually considered more of an equivalent to Chevy, than a step up. Because the Canadian market was more thinly spread than the US market, they paired Chevy with Olds and Pontiac with Buick (or maybe it was Chevy-Buick and Pontiac-Olds, I can't remember now). Chevies were built in Canada, but Buicks and Oldsmobiles were imported, and slapped with steep tariffs. It would have been too cost-prohibitive to import the US spec Pontiacs, because while people would have been willing to pay a premium for a Buick or Olds, Pontiac just wasn't upscale enough. So most Canadian Pontiacs were built using Chevy frames and drivetrains, but with Pontiac interiors, dashboards, front-end clips, and sheetmetal. A Pontiac front clip and doors will bolt right to a Chevy body, as they're both the same B-body. the only difference is in the rear quarter panel. To use 1967 as an example, Chevy was on a 119" wb, while the Pontiac Catalina was on a 121" and the Executive/Bonneville were on a 124". All that length was added just ahead of the rear axle, which stretched out the rear deck and rear quarter panels, but had no bearing whatsover on the passenger cabin.

Ford did something similar to ensure wider brand coverage in Canada. All Ford dealers sold a Mercury-based model, and all Mercury dealers, I believe, sold a Ford-based model. One of them was called "Meteor", but I can't remember which one that was.

And Chrysler did weird things as well. For instance, I believe there was a call called the Chrysler Valiant, which was a Dodge Dart with a Valiant front-end clip (all the Dart's extra length was in the back seat area, so the clips were interchangable). And even more recently, I've seen Chrysler Intrepids.

but, I believe there were Dodges sold in Canada, as I recall a car called the Dodge Crusader in the late 50's, which was a Plymouth with Dodge trim. In 1957-59, Dodge/Plymouth front clips were interchangeable, as, once again, the extra 4 inches that punched a Dodge wheelbase from 118 to 122" were all in the back

fintail

I actually saw a Crusader a few weeks ago, it was the 1955-56 bodystyle though. It was extremely lowline, apart from bumpers I don't know if it had any chrome.

andys120

Thanks Andre, that's a pretty good explanation. Weren't Dodge trucks sold in Canada under the brand name "Fargo". I wonder why?

ab348

Here in Canada we had Chrysler-Dodge and Chrysler-Plymouth dealers (or I suppose in smaller communities, , all combined). In the 60s if you were a Chrysler-Plymouth dealer up here you got to sell Fargo trucks instead of Dodges. In my memory they were identical except for the badging. I must admit that I haven't seen one in years.

ab348

I don't quite get it though. I understand that the Canadian market, especially back then, was much more likely to buy a lower-cost, lower-line car, and that Pontiacs imported from the US would cost more. But GM Canada was able to build the other lines - my '68 Cutlass was built in Oshawa, but is identical otherwise to the Lansing-built Oldsmobiles, with a Rocket engine that was built in Lansing and all the same trim and specs. I don't know why they couldn't do the same thing for Pontiac.

lemko

1958 was kind of confusing per Chevrolet model names:

Delray= 150
Biscayne = 210
Bel Air

Technically, the Impala was a "Bel Air Impala."

lemko

I believe I saw it or one like it at one of the Carlisle shows.

uplanderguy

Even with the minimal Biscayne trim, that basic bodystyle is still handsome IMO. I do remember when my Dad came home from work one day and said he saw the first truckload of '68 Chevys coming into town. He said, "They have the taillights in the bumpers. How stupid!"

Looked nice though.

texases

I parked next to a '68 Chevy two nights ago. Had 22" wheels, but otherwise not too molested...

lemko

Heck, I loved when Chevrolet put the taillights in the bumper from 1968 through 1970. My Dad almost bought a used gold 1968 Bel Air back in 1970 until he discovered the dealer filled the crankcase with STP to hide the burnt valves.