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I often read posts which ask what they should expect to pay for a new or used 997. My take on this is that obviously you should do your homework and get what you feel is a good , fair and reasonable price with the understanding that " Buyer beware " is a practical issue to keep in your forebrain. The often missed issue is this: you are also buying history, racing experience, and ownership in the best built sportscar for the money in the world. Does the Corvette offer you history?? Given, the Porsche is a more expensive car, but check out the interior on the new Corvettes... no comparison, I wouldn't shell out $65,000 for a car that comes with blems on the leather and scuffs on the plastic.. My car was delivered in PERFECT condition.. not a single scratch or knick. I will never drive my 997 170 mph, but knowing I can is enough. Every time I turn that ignition key I get a smile on my face....I could care less about the depreciation... I'm keeping this car for a long time. It's comforting to know that a Porsche family member had input into the design of my car, not a board of 100 designers in Detroit who are employees rather than owners. The next time you question whether a Porsche 997 is the car for you, go take a really close look at the lines, design and build quality of the roof on a 997 coupe, flip those little built-in clips for the roof rack and see what you think. Porsche put more thought into those aerodynamic little gizmos than Chevy put into the entire interior on the Corvette... With a Porsche you are investing in a part of the dream that is Porsche..
I've been dreaming that dream since I was 18..ya, the last 40 years
Chromedome
But to each their own.....there are some kids who grow up dreaming of a 911 and some that grow up dreaming of a vette. You'll never be able to change their dreams for better or worse so let 'em be
Thanks
According to the K&N web site, the air filter for a 2004 911 runs $81, not $292. And the estimated increase in horsepower is 1 to 4 horsepower, not 23. I have heard positive things regarding K&N air filters, but wherever you are getting your information from is way off.
The increase in going from a 997 to a 997S (3.6 liter to 3.8 liter) is "only" 30 horsepower, and that effectively costs about $6,000. Do you honestly think you could get 75% of that benefit from a $90 air filter? If so, I have some "wet" real estate to sell you.
K&N Homepage
K&N Intake System
by K&N
$291.95
CARB Certification Pending Add 23hp to your 1999-’04 996 Porsche® With K&N’s® Aircharger Intake Kit
It’s hard to believe that the Porsche® O.E. intake system is as restrictive as it is, but repeated dyno tests on several 996s have shown that the K&N Aircharger adds 23 horsepower. And the best news is that it uses the O.E. mass-air sensor and requires no custom programming. The installation is simple too – just remove the factory intake and replace it with the K&N Aircharger that fits in the same location. Made out of advanced composites, the HDPE intake tube provides a direct, unrestricted path to your engine for maximum airflow. The K&N high-flow air filter is a 360-degree conical design with carbon fiber lid that provides plenty of clean, cool air. Hot under-hood air is isolated from the filter by black powder-coated sheet metal baffles that incorporate the factory cold air duct. You can plan on the K&N Aircharger performing like new for years to come with its million-mile washable and re-useable air filter, and quality kit components like silicone connecting hoses. Finally, power you can feel from an intake kit! For normally aspirated 996 only and will not fit GT3.
Problem with dyno testing is that you can dial in any horsepower reading you want to see. Dynos are so easily to fudge. Here's how:
http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0402tur_dyno_tricks_problems/
Also, be weary of using the K&N air filter. Some have had great success, others...not. Problem is that the K&N has some oils in the filter(not uncommon) to help collect particles and prevent "drying out" which is theoretically good but Porsche's MAFs are very sensitive to any changes....so much so that oil residue from these K&N filters have led to mucking up the MAF and causing the car to go into limp mode. Some have intentionally dried out their K&Ns by letting them sit but then the filter loses part of its function and particles get through which again, mucj up the MAF
The notion of being less restrictive, and increasing air flow is great EXCEPT for Porsche's MAF system. Thus many have chosen alternate routes in order to tack on extra HPs. The most popular and succesful ways have been so far with less restrictive cats and new mufflers ($2500-5,000+) and/or reprogramming the DME (flashing) which will run about $2000. These two methods have the most pronounced effect with turbo cars. It's difficult to do much with NA cars.
Good luck and enjoy the modding....there is plenty more to do but this is just a start
I have a 2005 C2S with the "Sport Chrono" and "Porsche Sport Exhaust" options. Neither of which are officially credited with any increase in power. But, when activated together, they sure seem to make the car feel quicker. In addition, the Sport Exhaust is, I believe, the same one that is included in the X51 package that does officially add 25+ horsepower.
Do you think that either the Sport Chrono or Sport Exhaust add to the standard Carrera S output?
At one point I had considered selling my 2005 and getting a 2007 in a different color. I would have ordered the sport chrono for $920, but may have foregone the sport exhaust for $2,400. Would I have noticed a difference in the performance?
Something everyone should keep in mind, especially with any high performance car like a Porsche:
From the air cleaner on one end, through the engine, and to the exhaust tips on the other end--- is basically one long tube...and if you don't address the entire length of the tube, then what you do on just one end or just the other end, isn't going to amount to very much in isolation of the entire system.
So, more air needs more induction needs more fuel needs more cylinder breathing, needs more compression needs more fuel charge cooling needs more exhaust needs more $$$!!
Mr. S
visiting Host
No , sir, I am not that individual. I have been fortunate that the present style allows me to complete shave my head, baldness hidden! At 57 years old and 35 years of marrage, I am totally at easy with myself . All I can say is that at this time in my life I am completely enjoying myself and the Porsche is a big part of that..
Good luck and enjoy your car
Chromedome
I have been in a few Corvettes and have driven my brothers' 2006. The angle at which you sit is a problem for me, the materials are common to Chevrolet. ( I own a 2007 Silverado, Crew Cab, so I like Chevys ) For the buck , I do not enjoy the conotation (sp ? ) of being one who wears silk shirts, gold chains , fake chest hair and spandex pants. Barbie dolls with blond hair sticking outside the windows smoking Camels is not my idea of a cool car. Okay HP!! Lots of it, but I don't want to spin the tires. With a Porsche you buy exceptional build quaility, materials and history. I will stick with that and leave my retired military brother to the Corvette.
Oh well....
Chromedome
'A gentleman recently saw a car of mine (older ferrari) at a car show and told me he;s interested in buying my car. This car took me 18mos to find(very meticulous and wanted the best of the best). I've never thought about selling the car and always planned to just have it "forever" but he's offering 40% more than I paid for it just 6mos ago. And yes I paid fair market value and it has gone up but not nearly that much!
Am I crazy passing this up? Yeah the money would be great but some things just aren't about the money. I can't ask my wife because I know what she would say
I went nuts when I sold my 1976 914 2.0. It had 36k miles afeter 4 years and was in perfect condition. I was always sorry I sold that car because I loved it. The fastest car in 1st and 2nd I have owned. If you actually love the car, don't do it, if it's a step up to a car you will love, do it!
Chromedome
and i definitely don't want to be one of those guys who kick themselves for selling a certain car - not gonna be me
My decision to sell was not as much motivated by financial need as it was time and interest. I knew that I wouldn't get to drive the car as much with a young family and I also knew that any exotic car of that day required a fair amount of routine maintenance and care. I had a great mother and father who spent all their free time with us as kids, and I didn't want to be tinkering with a car when I could be coaching baseball.
After the sale, I put $50,000 of the proceeds into an investment account and my wife agreed that, if we didn't use it up to fund the kids college tuition, I could splurge as an old man on another sports car. Well, here we are. I'm an old man (funny how your perspective on being 55 changes when you actually hit that age). We got the kids through college (almost) via other means. I coached baseball. My kids want to vacation as a family, even when they are in their 20's. I've even snuck in a sports car or two in the intervening years, thanks to other good investments. And we never touched the "M1 Investment Account".
Every once in awhile, when I see an old BMW M1 at a car show or even see a picture of one, I get nostalgic. But I never regretted my decision to sell - it was the right one at the right time. My advice is that if owning a Ferrari is your dream and you feel you deserve it, by all means, enjoy it. But do not think of any car as an investment, think of it as an expenditure.
P.S. That investment account? It now has a $1,924,000 balance (about 16.5% average annual after tax return over 24 years). If I really get nostalgic, I could buy 15-20 M1's.
i haven't looked at this car as an investment, rather as one of the cars on my list of "Cars I want to own". It came true and never really planned on selling it unless a financial crunch dictated so. So when I was approached I saw I could look at it one of two ways:
1. Look at it as if someone just decided to give you an extra $X and not taking this is costing me $X to keep it
OR
2. Does this extra $X (if I sold it) have any sort of financial impact on me now? The answer is no but then spiritinthesky's post about $2M - that does have a financial impact on me
Enough of this, the car is going to grow old with me (Knock on wood) so let's get back to talking about wasting $$$ on Porsches
Everybody with a brain for Porsches and fine cars understands. If you are a " car guy" you just are... I have lived and dreamed Porsches for 40 years. There is not a day that goes by that I don't look at my 2006 C2S and say " this car is way cool ". I will have it for a long time... one of my ( lucky ) kids will get this one . I have only 2238 miles on it..after 19 months of ownership, okay a garage queen... but it's in absolutely PERFECT condition.
Chromedome
..After 19 months of ownership of my 2005 C2S Cab, 13,600 miles and it's in PERFECT condition. I think my daughters have logged twice as many miles in the back seat than you have on your car. But if you are happy that's all that matters.
Part of the beauty I see in the 997 is that it CAN be driven daily. If I had a bit more disposable income and wanted a pure garage queen, I might have been tempted by the Ferrari 430 that I could have picked up for MSRP in September 2005 (unique circumstances). But even though that $190k would now be worth $250k +/-, I wouldn't have had a fraction of the fun I've had with our "family car".
Yes a " Garage Queen " and then we step over to the area of discussing your or my definition of " Perfect " . My description includes: no dents , dings , stone dents , pings, stone chips, scratches , smuges, swirls ( either straight or circular, ) lint on the carpet, stains, water marks, inside window scum buildup, excess crap in the trunk.. back seat or glove compartments, any brake dust on wheels, or brake calipers, or on back of wheels. unwaxed surfaces or unwashed surfaces. Yep I'm nuts about Porsche.. but I have known people worse than me. Here in Southern California there are many car crazy epople. The weather allows you to keep cars really clean and rust free for years..and when you add German anal retentive qualities to ones heritage you get me. My wife knows i'm nuts. Thank God
I have other cool cars to drive
Chromedome
But I must admit that I would side more with habitat in that Porsches are designed and meant to be driven. The Wall Street Journal had an interesting cover story on Ferrari this week, talking about the 2-3 year wait list on most of theri models. They broke their promise to limit production to 5,000 vehicles a year worldwide and pumped out 5,500 last year. Porsche produces a little over 100,000.
If you "garage queen" a $95,000 911S for 5 years and 10,000 miles, each one of those miles will have cost you about $4 just in depreciation. If you hang in there for a $190,000 Ferrari 430, garage queen it for 5 years and 10,000 miles, you will MAKE $4-5+ on every one. Yet, if you drive a 911 for 40,000 miles over those same 5 years, the depreciation will not be significantly worse. On a Ferrari 430, you will get creamed.
Maybe it's because I come from a family of racing enthusiasts that I see no point in admiring, but not DRIVING a Porsche 911. I am fortunate enough to have inherited some original Gustov Stickley furniture pieces and a couple of Picasso's and Dali's (small). They make for a nice appreciating "view" in my condo. But I can't wait to get my 911 C2S to the Porsche track events and, if the end result is a stone chip on the fender, I won't shed any tears. A wreck into the wall would be another matter.
As far as your definition of "Perfect", you obviously have high standards. What is your definition of "Cool" as in your other cars? Mine is such that there are only a handful that qualify, all more expensive than the C2S.
Everyone has a different station in life, obviously yours is elevated from mine. My top car is a 2006 C2S. Other cool cars by my definition are a new 2007 Chevy Silverado CrewCab and a 2004 BMW 5 series. " Cool " and "Perfect " are on a sliding scale for everyone. What I enjoy, you may not. Your day at the tract may be my day at the beach , I surf so a good day of slids at the local reef keeps me happy. Keeping my Porsche in perfect condition by my definition fullfills my dream...enjoy life and no worries..I'll never have a Ferrari or a Picaso.. don't want them or a Rolex.. but I am really happy. Don't need the bling, and I didn't buy my Porsche for anyone but me.
Chromedome
My preferred colors are meteor/atlas grey, basalt black or midnight blue. But I also like the Carmona red. What is the general view on resale value for Carmona red?
For those of you with cabs with black interior: when you leave the top down in the sun, don't the seats get unbearably hot? I don't like the beige interior, but I don't want to have something that is unpleasant to use.
You are correct, there are not many of these out there, and appears there will be less for the US market.
On price, I would think the best deal you will get will be on an in-stock 2007. But you may need to take a color combination that isn't your first choice or some additional options you don't want. The closer you get to the release of the 2008's the better your negotiating power should be. I got a 10% discount on my 2005 in September 2005. 7-8% should be achievable now in my area, but pricing seems to vary by geography. On the other hand, if you want to order the car exactly as you want it in your preferred color combo, you will likely get slightly less of a discount but will save on unwanted options. At this point in the model year, if I were to order, I'd probably wait and go with a 2008. The price increase probably won't be that significant, and made up in resale value.
On options, no disrespect to ringleader, but the $920 sport chrono is well worth it, IMO. The increased throttle and braking response in sport mode is enticing. And, given that you are going for an "S", with PASM standard, it makes for a very sporty combination. The chrono part is a bit of a gimmick, but the sport part isn't, IMO. If I was cutting out an option on your list, it would probably be the Bose. I haven't heard the base system, but the Bose upgrade is not very impressive. And driving around with the top down, I doubt you could tell a huge difference. I have the Nav and it's a pain to use compared to our Acura's, but it still is valuable enough in my travels.
On the color, I have Seal Grey / Black and have not had a problem with the interior getting too hot. I do leave the top down on occasion, but not at high noon on a sunny day. I think the Carmona Red is a great color for the 911 and think it looks best with a black interior, although that's obviously highly subjective. I'm also a big fan of tomtomtom's Speed Yellow/Black, but the Carmona Red is a bit more conservative, while still being different than the mainstream silver/grey/black.
Good luck.
Same Carmona Red under different lights
More colors here:
http://www.porschepassion.com/colours997.htm
I agree about buying what you want.. but, if they are cutting you a deal on that color, they have a reason... It will be a tough re-sell..
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Not in my opinion. I've seen the color in person and it looks like a deep rich ruby pearl / maroon, not Barney purple. Photo's can be deceptive. Take a look at the samples in the above post. The "Seal Grey" bears no resemblence to my car. It looks more like BMW's "Steel Blue".
But hey, colors are subjective. I actually thought the "Phoenix Yellow" on the BMW M3 looked great in low light / dusk when I first saw it. My wife saw it in bright sunlight, and relabeled it "Regurgitated Green"
Even though everything about ordering a 911 is subjective, let me make this one easy for you. Forget the $500 5mm wheel spacers. According to my dealer (a former Porsche factory engineer), they put that one on the list just to see how stupid some buyers (Americans) might be. And although he was half kidding with that comment, he was half serious.
5mm is about 1/5 of an inch. If you can actually see the difference, it will only be after a bit of eye strain. And, by the way, if you are getting a C2S with the standard 295mm width rear tires, those wheels will accept the 305mm width tires that come on the C4S and Turbo. Havign just replaced mine at 12,500 miles, the cost increase to go to 305's vs. 295's would have been $20-25 per tire on the Pirellis or Michelins. The 10mm wider tires will have 5mm of width added to each side of the wheel, essentially producing the same effect as the spacers. At less than 10% of the cost. (And if you do get the spacers, you have to remove them if you decide to go with the wider tires).
Porsche gets away with charging insane prices for some of their options. I now try to abstain from calling someone "nuts" for spending hundreds or thousands of dollars for color coordinated seat belts and rear center consoles with speed yellow instrument guages. After all, it's their money. But even my dealer jokes about the $500 5mm wheel spacers. Apparantly, it was Porsche's "official" answer after hearing of some owners who achieved the same effect by purchasing ten 5mm washers for a grand total of $2.00 to slip over the lug bolts before mounting the tires.
Next time you are in a dealership, look at a C2 (without PASM) next to a C2S and post what you notice is the difference in appearance. Hint: I'm not referring to the wheels and tires, and it's more than 5mm. If you are sharp enough to identify the difference, then maybe you would actually notice the 5mm wheel spacers. But even then, I'd strongly recommend getting 305 series tires in a year or buying $2 worth of washers today. But please don't waste $500. There are better ways to spend that money in a 911. I'd even put my somewhat frivolous $1,990 sport exhaust as way, way above the wheel spacers in financial prudence and bang (or boom) for the buck.
In any event, if you are going to purchase a high end car, be it a lotus, ferrari or Porsche.. make sure it makes you happy when you drive it. To hell with what others think. Personally, looking at a Picasso hanging on a wall doesn't bring me to that "Place"... that is what stocks an ETF's are for :-)
T from NH
I must say, though, this "great inner peace" and "bring me to that Place" talk is a little creepy, even for someone with multiple family members on Porsche's payroll. I'm getting visions of Gene Wilder bent over working on the engine bay of a 997 and suddenly proclaiming "It's ALIVE!".
Seriously, please enjoy your 911TT as you see fit - on the road, in your garage, or even in your living room. As far as "comparing performance data" with the RS, that's a tough one. The high revving, high strung, RWD, lightweight GT3 might not seem that much different on paper than the 911TT, but is a very different driving experience in person.