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On an E36 the sunroof cassette adds 65 pounds to the highest point of the car. As TC Kline told me, "It's equivalent to strapping your car's battery to the roof..."
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I, for one, would still do it. Delete the sunroof, that is, even if the price did not decline.
Sunroofs steal headroom, usually about 2 inches. The only car I have been in with a sunroof that did clear my head was a Genesis.
According to my dealer rep, you can delete the sunroof on ordered vehicles. The thing is, however, the thought is you must pay to play when you order a car either in an unpopular color or with options deleted that will make the car, er, "unmarketable."
Increasingly, even the German cars are only purchased "off the lot" -- as we Americans seem to want immediate gratification -- so cars are ordered that the dealer feels confident will sell within some reasonable time frame, thus not incurring interest charges that are above the planned amount.
The off the lot mentality, too, is why so many cars in stock are black, gray, silver with black interiors, etc. We've apparently decided that we want our cars with black paint and black leather -- it is very difficult to find cars with more imaginative color combinations, or without certain packages.
I don't fault the dealers, though, car buying is: test drive and buy on Saturday and, if possible, drive it home on Saturday.
My wife's friend bought a very nice new car, about $70K before discount. A long Saturday test drive, followed by an offer, followed by a pick up on Monday. Wham bam, thank you m'am.
Now, the car in question looked like the Batmobile (well, sort of) and it is a very very nice ride. But, this method of picking out a $70K car seems like settling. I guess it is possible the car was configured EXACTLY as wanted, so ordering it was unnecessary.
But, why not take the time to "build" the car just like many of us build the houses we live in, the suits we wear, etc; and, then wait for the thing to be fabricated to your specifications?
Clearly, there is something wrong with me.
I am thinking that I purchased ONE new Audi off the lot and purchased one "previously owned" Audi (essentially off the lot, too) out of 32 of them. I kept the new one I bought off the lot for less than 12 months because it wasn't equipped to my liking. See, something's just not right with me.
The last time I was in Germany was 2005 -- at that time, the Audi dealer in Munich I spoke with said they keep no inventory other than cars for test drives because "everyone" orders their cars. Well, sure, I thought, you're in Munich -- but the same thing is true in Zurich. Folks decide to buy a car, work with a dealer rep to order the car, wait 4-6 weeks and pick it up -- getting EXACTLY the car they wanted. Is this still European practice?
Anyway, if you don't want a sunroof, order the damn car without it -- it's your money after all.
I, for one, would still do it. Delete the sunroof, that is, even if the price did not decline.
Sunroofs steal headroom, usually about 2 inches. The only car I have been in with a sunroof that did clear my head was a Genesis.
According to my dealer rep, you can delete the sunroof on ordered vehicles. The thing is, however, the thought is you must pay to play when you order a car either in an unpopular color or with options deleted that will make the car, er, "unmarketable."
Increasingly, even the German cars are only purchased "off the lot" -- as we Americans seem to want immediate gratification -- so cars are ordered that the dealer feels confident will sell within some reasonable time frame, thus not incurring interest charges that are above the planned amount.
The off the lot mentality, too, is why so many cars in stock are black, gray, silver with black interiors, etc. We've apparently decided that we want our cars with black paint and black leather -- it is very difficult to find cars with more imaginative color combinations, or without certain packages.
I don't fault the dealers, though, car buying is: test drive and buy on Saturday and, if possible, drive it home on Saturday.
My wife's friend bought a very nice new car, about $70K before discount. A long Saturday test drive, followed by an offer, followed by a pick up on Monday. Wham bam, thank you m'am.
Now, the car in question looked like the Batmobile (well, sort of) and it is a very very nice ride. But, this method of picking out a $70K car seems like settling. I guess it is possible the car was configured EXACTLY as wanted, so ordering it was unnecessary.
But, why not take the time to "build" the car just like many of us build the houses we live in, the suits we wear, etc; and, then wait for the thing to be fabricated to your specifications?
Clearly, there is something wrong with me.
I am thinking that I purchased ONE new Audi off the lot and purchased one "previously owned" Audi (essentially off the lot, too) out of 32 of them. I kept the new one I bought off the lot for less than 12 months because it wasn't equipped to my liking. See, something's just not right with me.
The last time I was in Germany was 2005 -- at that time, the Audi dealer in Munich I spoke with said they keep no inventory other than cars for test drives because "everyone" orders their cars. Well, sure, I thought, you're in Munich -- but the same thing is true in Zurich. Folks decide to buy a car, work with a dealer rep to order the car, wait 4-6 weeks and pick it up -- getting EXACTLY the car they wanted. Is this still European practice?
Anyway, if you don't want a sunroof, order the damn car without it -- it's your money after all.
Mark - interesting points you make. As a moderator here at Edmunds, I help folks with lease numbers (MF and residual). Often the question comes up about picking a car that is a good deal - I often reply with something along the lines of "when you're looking at a $30K / $40K / $50K / $60K car, why wouldn't you get exactly what you want rather than what the dealer has on the lot?"
When we bought my wife's Outback in February, she wanted a specific color and option group. Fortunately, a local dealer had one coming in equipped exactly that way, so it was a fairly easy transaction. But, should I find myself in the market for a car with that price range, I'd have no problem ordering it to my exact specs.
Most people buy houses and suits off off the rack too. Like cars, the % of people that design, build and wait is pretty small.
Some people also buy because they need a car quickly. Others aren't that picky about ever option, as long as it looks good, and has the important stuff. Or with a Honda, they are all the same!
Often the question comes up about picking a car that is a good deal - I often reply with something along the lines of "when you're looking at a $30K / $40K / $50K / $60K car, why wouldn't you get exactly what you want rather than what the dealer has on the lot?"
Bingo. There is something in current American culture that prevents people from waiting for anything. That was not how the country was founded, but it is, how it evolved. Instant gratification is so entrenched that people would rather get a different color, no sunroof, or ugly (in their opinion) wheels rather than wait for what they actually want. One would think that products of such high value would be carefully selected and purchased to the specification of the customer, but the waiting seems almost "unamerican". I literally had to deal with blank stares and puzzled looks from all involved, from sales people, to coworkers, when I said I (want to or) ordered my car and it will come in couple of months. "Why would you wait?", they asked.
I think there is a strong feedback loop in this - people want an instant gratifications, so the dealers and manufacturers adjusted to that world view by taking large inventories of product (nowhere else in the world car dealers have such enormous inventory) - which in turn conditions them to attempt to push for sales of what they already have (financing cost of the inventory) rather some future product that may even get canceled. Sale can be really booked when when the product and funds changes hands, not when order is made and just a small deposit is made. The finality of spot delivery gives a lot of incentives to everybody involved to accept what is there, rather than what may be there. This of course creates sales people with blank stares and puzzled looks when they meet a "pickey" cutomer (like me), who wants an exact color, style and options and is willing to wait for it. Customers know that, too and they know their power of instant gratification works the other way, as well as their own. Unit taken off the lot today, is one with no more financing cost.
I always read that an ordered car should be less expensive than one from the lot, because it's not financed. This is true in theory, but the psychology works in exactly opposite direction. The sales people act like they're making you a favor by accepting a future order rather than taking the car from the lot (and for reasons stated above, they may even believe that), which means you should pay for that "favor". If you were more "accommodating" to their immediate needs (take one unit from the lot), they may be more "accommodating", too. As a result, some people who would be willing to wait hear they could get extra $1000 off the car on the lot (even if it doesn't make any sense from cost-plus point of view), so they adjust their expectation and take one with a different color or wrong options, just so they can believe they got a better deal. It even works for them long term, as such a customer, who bought a "deal" may be more willing to accelerate next purchase, as they may never get over that color, or those wrong options.
That's how the feedback loop closes - since people are willing to accept "imperfect" product, why change the business model that "works"?
The vast majority of Americans want their new cars TODAY!! Waiting 6-12 weeks isn't the norm.
Now I decided to check out an Audi dealer in Birmingham UK. They have 174 Audis in stock and a total of 896 among it's 4 locations. I checked out a couple of Audi dealers in Frankfurt and Berlin. Each has about 100 new Audis in stock but when you do a search, it returns 5,790 new vehicles available - I'm guessing those are all the Audis in stock somewhere in Germany. A dealer in Paris has 37 vehicles in stock.
So even in oh so special Europe, it looks like it's easy to buy off the lot like a plebe.
My local dealer has 319 Audis in stock. Following is the color breakdown:
Gray 104 Black 93 Blue 49 White 34 Silver 31 Brown 5 Red 3
So even in oh so special Europe, it looks like it's easy to buy off the lot like a plebe.
It's all relative. Don't compare Birmingham to Paris How many dealerships and units are available in all five boroughs of New York City?
Europe has quadruple number of versions and options of same models sold in the US. 3-series had something like 4 gas and 4 diesel engines available, many options stand alone, etc. What here is a four-five page option sheet, there is a thirty-fifty page book. It costs over twice as much, of course. But I'm sure there is still plenty of inventories for those wanting one today. There may me more warehouses there, rather than actual dealers lots. It's quite common there to have a showroom downtown and off-site lot in commercial suburbs.
Also without ordering, many people still pick what they want. Just rpthrough dealer swaps or incoming allocations. So you can wait a few days at most and get pretty much anything.
I think this discussion is more about the small # of fanatics that obsess about certain things like a moonroof impacting COG. Or a stick shift! Very few people track their cars. Including BMW and audi buyers. So not many folks will wait 10 weeks to get a unit without a moonroof. They just keep the shade closed.
So outside of truly custom builds (off the menu). With all the inventory around, you can probably find 95% of anything in a few days.
We do it because we can. Simple as history. If there were megalots of cars sitting on every corner in Euro cities they would be doing the same thing. They order because they have to. In Europe the car dealers probably took over the space where carriages were custom ordered. In the U.S., the car dealers just built facilities on the next 10 acre vacant lot in the suburbs. It's just a different way of doing things and for every anal car addict that posts here(and I don't mean that derogatorily) there are thousands of people who look at cars as transportation.....even those cars costing $70k. They just consider them just more luxurious transportation. I'm pretty sure cars a less expensive in the U.S. and people turn them over a lot quicker than they do in Europe on average. If I knew I was going to keep a new car 10-12 years and it cost me a lot more I may be a tad bit more picky too.
Also without ordering, many people still pick what they want. Just rpthrough dealer swaps or incoming allocations. So you can wait a few days at most and get pretty much anything.
So outside of truly custom builds (off the menu). With all the inventory around, you can probably find 95% of anything in a few days.
Depends. It may be true for some brands, where options and packages are limited. Not so much in BMW or Benz (even if their options are limited vs. Europe, they still come with plenty of available combinations). Probability of finding my favorite combination within 300 miles is basically null. I'd like 435i Grand Coupe with sport line (but not M-sport - ripoff, well let's say "too expensive for value") with red exterior, black upholstery w/ red stitching, dark burl walnut wood trim, premium package, technology package, driver assistance package, harman kardon sound (negotiable), but no lighting package (ripoff), I'm flexible on wheels. No. of cars within 300 mile - ZERO. There is nothing even close, like one option missing/too many. Even compromising on the color and/or upholstery and/or trim still does me no good. So no, "pretty much anything" does not apply. Sport line is rare, there may be one or two units per five local dealerships - of course in a completely wrong configuration. It just so happens that my perception of value seems to be completely different than sales managers of those dealerships. I see Sport line as a highest value, because it gives you seats and suspension without all that other fluff - and you get gorgeous red on black stitching (if you choose that color) to boot. They seem to think that if you want the suspension and seats, you must also want all those other aesthetic additions and accents that BMW charges you extra 2 grand. I disagree, but who am I?
Same thing, Benz - there may be 50 or 100 units in C-class on a local major dealer lot (TB Mercedes), yet ZERO (literally) with real leather, all that fake stuff. This is how it were at some point, anyway - perhaps today they have one, who knows. That's what people buy, they say. It may be true. Leather is expensive at Benz and the fake stuff looks "just as good" - so they say. I wouldn't know, as there isn't even a single one to inspect.
Good point about ordered cars costing less than on-the-lot cars. My wife ordered a 2005 and a 2008 BMW X3 and the sales rep was quick to inform her that an ordered car gets an immediate MSRP discount of $500 (maybe it was $300, I don't remember exactly) since the dealership won't have to pay "floorplanning" (a.k.a., interest) fees.
I've not even attempted to order an American car, although when I test drove a new CTS, I got the sense "it would not be necessary," since "anything" could be found using the dealer locator software. I didn't pursue this path, so I don't know how accurate that statement was.
At my dealership, my salesrep claims he would rather send people out on test drives of the various models and then sign up new customers to order the exact cars they want. He says this is because so many of their cars are "on allocation." Apparently, this means you will allocated so many A7's (for instance) and that is it -- be guided accordingly. This excludes "ordered" cars.
The Audi leasing system devalues Prestige Audis residuals, so the dealers, knowing that the vast majority of the cars they sell will be leased, order in Premium Plus models which have higher residuals, hence lower monthly payments. My wife wanted (hold on) the heated cup holder in her 2014 SQ5 -- guess what? Only comes on the Prestige model (of course). The tracking headlights, too, Prestige only.
We got around the lease penalty by buying the car @ 2% APR -- no lease residual hit. I'm assuming, however, that the trade in value will be lower since the car has virtually everything on top of being a Prestige.
Here's another issue with the current American Way of buying: there is virtually no opportunity to experience certain options, since the dealer rarely stocks cars with (for example only) Blind Spot Monitoring or Top View Camera, etc. Also it is virtually impossible to find a car with sports seats in stock since "sport seats" only come on cars equipped with "summer only" tires and here in SW Ohio, no one wants summer tires, and so on.
The Munich dealer, on the other hand, seemed to have at least ONE of everything (to test, but not to buy) so that the customer could see it, feel it, hear it, experience it and drive it.
I'm not sure what "oh so special Europe" suggests, but it seems somewhat of a dis. I'm not saying the [apparent] "European way" should be adopted here in the US. Most folks seem happy with buying off the lot -- to each his/her own self be true --and the cars that I want can still be ordered exactly as I want them, so we do have a system that certainly seems like it's working.
As a further point of clarification, hundreds of thousands of people -- check that, millions of people -- build new houses (or they hire companies and contractors to do so). I realize that many of these built houses are from "Home Building" companies that offer customers "The Pemberton," "The Gladstone," and "The Barrington" (or some such names) that are floor-plans that allow some customization (kind of like a car). There are also custom "Home Builders" that will build it entirely your way. And, there are local builders who offer highly customizabel houses based on a couple dozen blueprints. Even those who do not build their houses from the dirt up typically shop until they find the facing and floor-plan that satisfies certain criteria. Some folks take months and months of house hunting before they pull the trigger on a $400,000 house, but will turn around and buy a $40,000 car after a 15 minute test drive (and they buy car after car after car the same way). Some folks probably spend more money on cars over a 20 to 30 year real estate mortgage term than they do on the house they call home -- always settling for what's on the lot.
It's not about Europe being "Oh so special". It's just a statement of fact that in the US we pay much less for cars, but in turn we have to accept limited choices provided by the manufacturers (like only 2 gas and 1 diesel engine on 3-series sedan, even less choice on other body styles, no manual transmissions, etc.), which is even more narrowed by dealers due them stocking only what they believe they can sell quickly - and customers wanting to drive away with the car at the day of the transaction, not in six weeks, not even in next day, or two. It's all part of the system, a tradeoff for significantly lower prices. Again, I don't blame them, just stating the fact. The reason of those systems evolving that way are many, some cultural, some geographic, some legal, some economic. In overall, I'll take lower prices for less choice every day of the week - but it doesn't prevent me from wishing there was more choice, at the same price, of course . But as a realist I know ain't gonna happen.
Dino, isn't the 4 GC by definition a rarity, so easily within the 5% margin? You are likely pretty unique in terms of what you want, so certainly should order. But that doesn't mean the majority of buyers aren't getting what they want by settling.
I guess though this is a board about higher end, more expensive cars. So out of the mainstream!
It also would suck if your car died, and you had to wait 12 weeks for a replacement.
One, new home construction hasn't been over a million per year in years. It may be that someone actually pays more for cars than housing over a 30 year period but IMO it would be exceedingly rare. I pay more in real estate taxes alone than I pay for my present 3 vehicles per year. Equating a home purchase with a car purchase is apples to oranges at best. Americans can and probably should be ridiculed for many things but the way they buy cars should be way, way down the list.
Dino, isn't the 4 GC by definition a rarity, so easily within the 5% margin? You are likely pretty unique in terms of what you want, so certainly should order. But that doesn't mean the majority of buyers aren't getting what they want by settling.
I guess though this is a board about higher end, more expensive cars. So out of the mainstream!
It also would suck if your car died, and you had to wait 12 weeks for a replacement.
Agreed on that one. Yes, it would suck, if the car died. However, the arrangements can be made, like buying a cheap car for time being (it is of course much more hassle, but I once almost did just that). I also think there are ways to prevent most of sudden deaths of vehicles, at least maintenance-related. An accident or act of nature with a total would be one that may not be fully preventable.
Another reason for European market being the way it is, stems from simple price-to-income relationship. Cost of a new car may be there in similar proportion to our cost of house. People buy and keep them for much longer, they cost more not just in dollars, but even more in relation to their earnings power. When you see that, it's easy to understand why somebody would get exactly what they want. If one trades cars every three years, there is always "next time" for the dream car, whatever it actually means.
Also without ordering, many people still pick what they want. Just rpthrough dealer swaps or incoming allocations. So you can wait a few days at most and get pretty much anything.
So outside of truly custom builds (off the menu). With all the inventory around, you can probably find 95% of anything in a few days.
Depends. It may be true for some brands, where options and packages are limited. Not so much in BMW or Benz (even if their options are limited vs. Europe, they still come with plenty of available combinations). Probability of finding my favorite combination within 300 miles is basically null. I'd like 435i Grand Coupe with sport line (but not M-sport - ripoff, well let's say "too expensive for value") with red exterior, black upholstery w/ red stitching, dark burl walnut wood trim, premium package, technology package, driver assistance package, harman kardon sound (negotiable), but no lighting package (ripoff), I'm flexible on wheels. No. of cars within 300 mile - ZERO. There is nothing even close, like one option missing/too many. Even compromising on the color and/or upholstery and/or trim still does me no good. So no, "pretty much anything" does not apply. Sport line is rare, there may be one or two units per five local dealerships - of course in a completely wrong configuration. It just so happens that my perception of value seems to be completely different than sales managers of those dealerships. I see Sport line as a highest value, because it gives you seats and suspension without all that other fluff - and you get gorgeous red on black stitching (if you choose that color) to boot. They seem to think that if you want the suspension and seats, you must also want all those other aesthetic additions and accents that BMW charges you extra 2 grand. I disagree, but who am I?
Same thing, Benz - there may be 50 or 100 units in C-class on a local major dealer lot (TB Mercedes), yet ZERO (literally) with real leather, all that fake stuff. This is how it were at some point, anyway - perhaps today they have one, who knows. That's what people buy, they say. It may be true. Leather is expensive at Benz and the fake stuff looks "just as good" - so they say. I wouldn't know, as there isn't even a single one to inspect.
Depends as you said. Local MB dealership has:
101 CLA Class in stock - 22 with leather 22% 109 C Class in stock - 38 with leather 35% 91 E Class in stock - 60 with leather 66% 986 Total in stock - 457 with leather 46%
Notice as the base price goes up, more leather in stock.
Dealers stock what people want. It's a $2300 upcharge for leather in the C300. That's 6%. I would guess that more than half of all C's are leased. The C300 leases at that magical price of $399 a month. Add another $50 a month for leather and it crosses that threshold where some folks start to get nervous.
Here's another issue with the current American Way of buying: there is virtually no opportunity to experience certain options, since the dealer rarely stocks cars with (for example only) Blind Spot Monitoring or Top View Camera, etc.
That is exactly my experience, too. I had to go multiple times just to see how some of those trim colors look like in real life. Another example is dynamic handling package or 3/4-series. Sounds good, especially on X-drive cars that don't get sport suspension with their sport and M-sport lines. NOT A SINGLE unit available with that, across the board - 3-series, 4-series, sedan, coupe, whatever. ZERO. How do I spend, or not spend $1000, if I don't even know what it actually brings? The significance of this one is suspension can completely change ride experience, just like engine, or say type of drive, so it's quite important to know how it will act.
Big differences, Rob. I guess Tampa buyers ain't big on leather, or so think the sales managers. C300: 130+ units, FIVE leather C400: 50+ units, TWO leather
One, new home construction hasn't been over a million per year in years. It may be that someone actually pays more for cars than housing over a 30 year period but IMO it would be exceedingly rare. I pay more in real estate taxes alone than I pay for my present 3 vehicles per year. Equating a home purchase with a car purchase is apples to oranges at best. Americans can and probably should be ridiculed for many things but the way they buy cars should be way, way down the list.
I did not say a "million per year" -- but that technicality was not really the point. The spirit of what I was saying was simply that cars, like houses, are very expensive purchases, yet we seem (to me, and I am only speaking for me) to buy these expensive durable goods with (what I perceive) not much discriminating thought put into the expenditure.
But, perhaps the system is set up that way -- folks go to the auto dealership thinking they want a dark blue metallic car with an ecru interior but, for the sake of -- what? -- expediency end up with gloss black paint and a light gray interior.
All I am saying (about myself) is I grew up in the 1960's when a brand new Chrysler Newport was under $4,000 -- which, for my parents, was a HUGE purchase. Since it (the 1963 Chrysler Newport) was my parent's first new car ever, they wanted (god knows why) seafoam metallic (a kind of medium green with a shiny tinge to it), automatic transmission, an AM radio with a rear seat speaker, a rear window defroster and power steering and power brakes. My parents thought (I assume) since they were "spending a young fortune" they should get exactly what they wanted, not necessarily just what was on the lot.
That mode of thinking stuck with me. Me -- not you, not other 'mericans, apparently.
My way is not correct for anyone else but me (but it might be, for all I know) -- it is, however, not incorrect.
Considering it would be less expensive if we ordered cars and considering that ordering a new car is almost the only way to get exactly the car you want, I simply struggle with the notion of "test drive and buy today." Clearly cars are bought in less than logical or even financially advantageous ways. Makes some sense, though, since cars are very emotional "things" -- or, better said, "cars make US, emotional and irrational."
Here's another "shocking" data point -- my friend who owns several car dealerships claims that less than 50% of people even bother to test drive a car anymore. I assume (doesn't make it so) this must have something to do with the age of the Internet.
I leave you as a product of my time -- which had its formative years in the '60's and '70's, apparently.
I think that claim of your friend's is based on observation that many of his purchases are based on customer walking in and buying without testing. What he doesn't see, or account for, are customers testing first in any location, then going home, sending emails and setting up transaction with the best offer, which may not be the place they actually test drove.
dino -- good point, I would, however, say that his observation perhaps at least suggests folks don't test drive as much as they used to (or as much as my wife and I do NOW.) I'd say my wife and I are really oddballs, in that we test-drive new cars as serious hobby-ists. I like to think, however, we don't test drive cars we're pretty sure we'd NEVER buy. Of course there was that one test drive of a new Lincoln crossover, what were we thinking? The thing had a horrible suspension -- reminded me of driving a full-size van (where we live, down by the river.)
I know my next F10 or should I say G30 will be ordered- well lets hope BMW does not carry over the current 3 series front end to the G30. PLEASE BMW, DONT.
Yeah, I'd like to test drive more than I do. But I'm too considerate of the dealer's business. I have a friend with no such limits. He goes and pretends to be interested in a new S-class just so he can "experience" it. Too me it's embarrassing, but he doesn't care. He always creates some fake justifications, how this pretending is not in conflict with his proclaimed christian faith (like "I may be interested in this car in 20 years", or equally ridiculous notion). Well, he does those things with (justifications) with other things, too - so I'm used to that hypocrisy by now.
I really don't see any "hypocrisy" in any of this. I have test driven many cars that I did not expect to buy. And at least twice during my life I have purchased something that I never thought I would purchase, based primarily on that test drive.
You don't know my friend. He would never do that. He purely and clearly (by his own admission) "test-drove" those cars for entertainment purpose only. "The story" was for the external consumption. BTW, this is just part of his behavioral pattern, so the hypocrisy thing is just endemic to him in many other aspects of his life. Not that I'm free of it myself, I just admit it when it's clear (he doesn't).
My wife and I certainly are regularly and frequently entertained by test driving. But there is actually a legitimate purpose too. Now, remember I said we -- broadly speaking -- don't test drive cars/SUV's that we are pretty certain we would NEVER buy. For instance, much as I might be entertained by driving a Corvette, I know in my heart of hearts I'd never buy one (even with your money). I just don't bother test driving them, therefore.
I have test driven an X6 -- and NOW, I know I wouldn't buy one, but at the time, it did seem like it was possible. Also test drove an Acura ZDX, for the money, it was better than the X6, but, for the money, I'd go with an MDX and pocket the $10,000. Likewise, I just CAN'T justify an Audi A7 or S7 when, since I have driven both, there is an A6 and S6 that are as far as I am concerned identical. Now, I do like the looks of an A7, but not $10,000 more than I like an A6, and so on.
I tested a couple of Jeeps (even the SRT 8 version) whilst we were shopping for the SQ5.
I can't see myself testing a Malibu -- just not interested, nothing against the car, per se, just not for me.
Same with a KIA Soul (is that spelled correctly?) -- but I would try (and have) an Optoma and am interested in a Genesis as a possible old-fart's alternative to an A6 for when I am 73, not 63, perhaps. And so forth.
I don't want to waste the dealer's time nor my time -- but test driving is both good education and good fun (or at least it can be both).
I'll not be testing a VW bug anytime soon, but I have tested the Toureg (and the Cayenne) and the Q7, too -- a VW CC sure is purty and in AWD trim could be #11 on my top 10, so to speak.
Within reason -- REASON -- I would think dealers need as many folks of means testing their cars as they can get their hands on. My wife and I test drove an Acadia a number of times -- came moderately close to moving on it, instead went with a 2011 FX35 (Infiniti).
If "y'all" want to comment with both an informed and entertained perspective on this forum, I would think that, plus your love and passion for cars would make you want to carve out at least one weekend every other month or so for test drive after test drive after test drive.
But, on the other hand, kids, in-laws, dogs and cats, broken pipes and blown A/C compressors can sometimes get in the way of the 'serious bidness' of test driving cars [for a living].
Performance wise, the only thing it seems to lack is a proper set of shoes (Good Year Eagle LS All Season hardly qualifies as a performance tire) and some stronger brakes (easy upgrade as well).
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
Most people buy houses and suits off off the rack too. Like cars, the % of people that design, build and wait is pretty small.
Some people also buy because they need a car quickly. Others aren't that picky about ever option, as long as it looks good, and has the important stuff. Or with a Honda, they are all the same!
Our home was bought new, and the builder allowed some changes to be made to the interior of the house, Rick is seeing more and more builders allowing these changes to be made. So we did get the house we wanted, without playing the construction loan convert to conventional loan game.. We have a friend who did this in Carmel Calif, a very nice, very upscale seaside town in northern calif. After the house was completed at a cost of 6 million dollars the appraiser did not appraise the house at that price, so no loan.. Now, the house sits on a bluff over looking the pacific ocean, the dinner room, kitchen and family room each have 90 to 120 degree view of the ocean, it's simply breathtaking. So he is paying on a construction loan for now and working with 3 banks to convert this loan... Building a house is not the same as building and waiting 4-6 week for your car to come in.
But we all know that American want that "instant" gratification, of walking into a dealer test drive, deal, and drive off with said car. Waiting 4-6 weeks is a life time to many Americans. I also do not think the dealers are willing to explain that the buyer can order a car of their choosing. Which I don't understand since the dealer wouldn't be paying interest on these cars and would be off the lot the following day it arrives...
Dino, isn't the 4 GC by definition a rarity, so easily within the 5% margin? You are likely pretty unique in terms of what you want, so certainly should order. But that doesn't mean the majority of buyers aren't getting what they want by settling.
I guess though this is a board about higher end, more expensive cars. So out of the mainstream!
It also would suck if your car died, and you had to wait 12 weeks for a replacement.
4CG is selling much better then what BMW was expecting, it's a rarity because BMW can't produce then fast enough.
I also do not think the dealers are willing to explain that the buyer can order a car of their choosing. Which I don't understand since the dealer wouldn't be paying interest on these cars and would be off the lot the following day it arrives...
But they are paying interest on those cars sitting on the lot. Cars cost the dealer money each day they sit in inventory.
But we all know that American want that "instant" gratification, of walking into a dealer test drive, deal, and drive off with said car. Waiting 4-6 weeks is a life time to many Americans. I also do not think the dealers are willing to explain that the buyer can order a car of their choosing. Which I don't understand since the dealer wouldn't be paying interest on these cars and would be off the lot the following day it arrives...
It's the same instant gratification. The salesman gets paid when he sells stuff today. The order is in the future. It can be canceled. The owner is paying for bunch of iron on their lot so this future order (that may be canceled) is not paying off any existing unit yet, but if you had bought today one out of those on the lot, the bank gets the check and interest stops. The system is absolutely geared toward here and now and the players adjusted to it. The benefit is lower prices, the drawback - limited selection and reliance on guesses from dealers' and regional reps' what will sell in what proportions. They essentially already decided for us what we want.
The German brand salespeople are usually well trained to accept orders and act like they're happy about it (even if they preferred to sell us something from the lot). Moreover, they generally have a system where every car has an order behind it (it usually is a sales manages, sometimes actual customer). They even have some "special order" options (like colors) that require actual end customer for production (managers sometimes create a virtual Joe Smith to work the system).
Try make an order at a Honda dealer - you get rolling eyes, laugh, dismissal, or even anger. Not to mention that Honda itself simply doesn't build ordered cars - it builds whatever it thinks will sell and then MAYBE you get lucky when one of those cars will be what you ordered. There is some chance, as they generally limit possible combinations.
BTW, those who make argument that order should be cheaper because it doesn't cost as much (no financing), it's true only in theory. In aggregate, all cars pay for the financing, including those that did not bear that direct cost. Also, if that logic was correct, a "lot queen" sitting there for months should have a premium sticker slapped onto it to cover that interest - but it's quite the opposite, isn't it? Because pricing decisions are only loosely linked to actual cost. The other parts are demand, psychology, planning, volume incentives, etc.
But we all know that American want that "instant" gratification, of walking into a dealer test drive, deal, and drive off with said car. Waiting 4-6 weeks is a life time to many Americans. I also do not think the dealers are willing to explain that the buyer can order a car of their choosing. Which I don't understand since the dealer wouldn't be paying interest on these cars and would be off the lot the following day it arrives...
It's the same instant gratification. The salesman gets paid when he sells stuff today. The order is in the future. It can be canceled. The owner is paying for bunch of iron on their lot so this future order (that may be canceled) is not paying off any existing unit yet, but if you had bought today one out of those on the lot, the bank gets the check and interest stops. The system is absolutely geared toward here and now and the players adjusted to it. The benefit is lower prices, the drawback - limited selection and reliance on guesses from dealers' and regional reps' what will sell in what proportions. They essentially already decided for us what we want.
The German brand salespeople are usually well trained to accept orders and act like they're happy about it (even if they preferred to sell us something from the lot). Moreover, they generally have a system where every car has an order behind it (it usually is a sales manages, sometimes actual customer). They even have some "special order" options (like colors) that require actual end customer for production (managers sometimes create a virtual Joe Smith to work the system).
Try make an order at a Honda dealer - you get rolling eyes, laugh, dismissal, or even anger. Not to mention that Honda itself simply doesn't build ordered cars - it builds whatever it thinks will sell and then MAYBE you get lucky when one of those cars will be what you ordered. There is some chance, as they generally limit possible combinations.
BTW, those who make argument that order should be cheaper because it doesn't cost as much (no financing), it's true only in theory. In aggregate, all cars pay for the financing, including those that did not bear that direct cost. Also, if that logic was correct, a "lot queen" sitting there for months should have a premium sticker slapped onto it to cover that interest - but it's quite the opposite, isn't it? Because pricing decisions are only loosely linked to actual cost. The other parts are demand, psychology, planning, volume incentives, etc.
Back in 2007 I was planning on buying a new GTI for my next HPDE instructor car; the local VW dealers acted like ordering a car was more difficult than achieving cold fusion so I walked and ended up with my MS3. A true blessing in disguise as I've since heard that the local VW dealers have a firm policy of refusing to hire service technicians with opposable thumbs...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
LOL, Roadburner. I think VW had one of the most inconsistent dealer networks out there. From absolutely horrible to first class and all in between. My observation is that it all depends on the parent corporation. If it belongs to a same place where premium German cars are sold, it's usually a very professional and nice place, not necessarily cheapest, but pleasant. Cross-pollination with fellow BMW or Audi usually helps. However, if it belongs to one of those Hyundai-Kia-Toyota-VW-fill-the-blank stores, the experience is not so great, probably for the same reason. Attitude toward order may be exact result of that - if company culture had already ordering on premium brands, it's no big deal to do that on lower end brand as well. However, if special order has never been on vocabulary of a Kia manager (not picking on them, just an example), when he moves to a VW store, he is not going to change his habits.
LOL, Roadburner. I think VW had one of the most inconsistent dealer networks out there. From absolutely horrible to first class and all in between. My observation is that it all depends on the parent corporation. If it belongs to a same place where premium German cars are sold, it's usually a very professional and nice place, not necessarily cheapest, but pleasant. Cross-pollination with fellow BMW or Audi usually helps. However, if it belongs to one of those Hyundai-Kia-Toyota-VW-fill-the-blank stores, the experience is not so great, probably for the same reason. Attitude toward order may be exact result of that - if company culture had already ordering on premium brands, it's no big deal to do that on lower end brand as well. However, if special order has never been on vocabulary of a Kia manager (not picking on them, just an example), when he moves to a VW store, he is not going to change his habits.
Dino, Pemske has a large auto dealership network and in Scottsdale they have a very large dealership that ranges from Porsche, BMW, Jaguar, Range Rover, and VW, the three times I was in that VW dealer (on the same lot as the Range Rover) the treatment was first class. Just too bad that VW has dummy down their line up, to be competitive with the likes of Ford and Chevy.
Penske has a large auto dealership network and in Scottsdale they have a very large dealership that ranges from Porsche, BMW, Jaguar, Range Rover, and VW, the three times I was in that VW dealer (on the same lot as the Range Rover) the treatment was first class. Just too bad that VW has dummy down....
Never impressed with their VW dealer, and haven't as yet been able to do business with them.
Try make an order at a Honda dealer - you get rolling eyes, laugh, dismissal, or even anger. Not to mention that Honda itself simply doesn't build ordered cars - it builds whatever it thinks will sell and then MAYBE you get lucky when one of those cars will be what you ordered. There is some chance, as they generally limit possible combinations.
Look at the option list for a 3-series, then for an Accord. Big difference. Really, the only "options" are for dealer added accessories. You want leather for your LX? Sure, here's the Katzkin catalog. Can't get it from the factory. At all.
But you can option up a 320i to $45K if you tick all the boxes.
It's not comparing apples to oranges. More like apples to coffee tables.
yeah, on a Honda it is just a matter of doing a search for the specific model and color combo. Which is almost always out there someplace.
only exception might be if you are holding out for a stick shift. There may be a few theoretical configurations (like a Navi) that don't exist in reality.
Penske has a large auto dealership network and in Scottsdale they have a very large dealership that ranges from Porsche, BMW, Jaguar, Range Rover, and VW, the three times I was in that VW dealer (on the same lot as the Range Rover) the treatment was first class. Just too bad that VW has dummy down....
Never impressed with their VW dealer, and haven't as yet been able to do business with them.
You know, in the early 2000's VW had really made their interiors nice - a Passat I rode in had light yellow leather and seemed to me on an interior level the equal of a BMW interior. It was really luxurious. VW had product that both drove well and was very nice inside. Almost an EELPS!
Then the US marketing decided they were going to make the cars bigger and softer and cheaper - just like a Toyota! Except that with Toyota you at least get inexpensive parts, a better service experience (usually) than the horrible and uneven VW experience, and much higher reliability! At the time I said that was a mistake, as why would you buy a Jetta turned Corolla when you could just buy a more reliable Corolla? And while VW was claiming they were going to sell a million cars/year in the US in five years, we see how that all happened. They sold like 390K or something last year and are less than half their targets.
Taking delivery the same day is more of a dealer-driven phenomemon than a consumer need for instant gratification. It's the whole "bird in hand" thing..
They are afraid to let the consumer go home and think about it... either getting cold feet or shopping the deal.
Penske has a large auto dealership network and in Scottsdale they have a very large dealership that ranges from Porsche, BMW, Jaguar, Range Rover, and VW, the three times I was in that VW dealer (on the same lot as the Range Rover) the treatment was first class. Just too bad that VW has dummy down....
Never impressed with their VW dealer, and haven't as yet been able to do business with them.
You know, in the early 2000's VW had really made their interiors nice - a Passat I rode in had light yellow leather and seemed to me on an interior level the equal of a BMW interior. It was really luxurious. VW had product that both drove well and was very nice inside. Almost an EELPS!
Then the US marketing decided they were going to make the cars bigger and softer and cheaper - just like a Toyota! Except that with Toyota you at least get inexpensive parts, a better service experience (usually) than the horrible and uneven VW experience, and much higher reliability! At the time I said that was a mistake, as why would you buy a Jetta turned Corolla when you could just buy a more reliable Corolla? And while VW was claiming they were going to sell a million cars/year in the US in five years, we see how that all happened. They sold like 390K or something last year and are less than half their targets.
I agree 100%. And the suits at VW should know better- especially after the drubbing they received in the early '80s when US built Rabbits were softened and "Americanized."
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Penske has a large auto dealership network and in Scottsdale they have a very large dealership that ranges from Porsche, BMW, Jaguar, Range Rover, and VW, the three times I was in that VW dealer (on the same lot as the Range Rover) the treatment was first class. Just too bad that VW has dummy down....
Never impressed with their VW dealer, and haven't as yet been able to do business with them.
You know, in the early 2000's VW had really made their interiors nice - a Passat I rode in had light yellow leather and seemed to me on an interior level the equal of a BMW interior. It was really luxurious. VW had product that both drove well and was very nice inside. Almost an EELPS!
Then the US marketing decided they were going to make the cars bigger and softer and cheaper - just like a Toyota! Except that with Toyota you at least get inexpensive parts, a better service experience (usually) than the horrible and uneven VW experience, and much higher reliability! At the time I said that was a mistake, as why would you buy a Jetta turned Corolla when you could just buy a more reliable Corolla? And while VW was claiming they were going to sell a million cars/year in the US in five years, we see how that all happened. They sold like 390K or something last year and are less than half their targets.
I agree 100%. And the suits at VW should know better- especially after the drubbing they received in the early '80s when US built Rabbits were softened and "Americanized."
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. - George Santayana
Look at the option list for a 3-series, then for an Accord. Big difference. Really, the only "options" are for dealer added accessories. You want leather for your LX? Sure, here's the Katzkin catalog. Can't get it from the factory. At all.
But you can option up a 320i to $45K if you tick all the boxes.
It's not comparing apples to oranges. More like apples to coffee tables.
I look at the Japaneses car companies at making appliances, you can't option out a washer, just move up to higher model. That is what the Japanese do, want leather in an Accord, then move up to the EX-L, if you are looking at the LX but want sunroof, you need to move up the higher model that might come with equipment you don't want. Lexus and Infiniti does this too.
IF you want a 320i, but want leather and sunroof, you can do that and stay in the 320i model, if you want a 320i with sport package and manuel transmission yup, you can stay with the 320i... Sure I can go and purchase a fully loaded Accord EX-V6 for 35K, but it's still an appliance...
yeah, on a Honda it is just a matter of doing a search for the specific model and color combo. Which is almost always out there someplace.
only exception might be if you are holding out for a stick shift. There may be a few theoretical configurations (like a Navi) that don't exist in reality.
You haven't been to the Honda Website in a while... BTW there are more then a few theoretical configurations you can't get at honda.. Some are classic color combo's.
If you love Black or Grey leather interior then the Accord is your car, They do not have Tan in the sedan, and I doubt they have it in the coupe either. In the lower range Accord, they only offer it in two colors, Grey and Steel., you have to move up to and above the EX=L to get other body colors.
Acura is the same, the have a limited selection of color combo's, if you want a MDX with a blue exterior, then you will have to settle for black or grey interior.
Didn't we just talk about not having to settle when buying a car?
Comments
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Sunroofs steal headroom, usually about 2 inches. The only car I have been in with a sunroof that did clear my head was a Genesis.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Increasingly, even the German cars are only purchased "off the lot" -- as we Americans seem to want immediate gratification -- so cars are ordered that the dealer feels confident will sell within some reasonable time frame, thus not incurring interest charges that are above the planned amount.
The off the lot mentality, too, is why so many cars in stock are black, gray, silver with black interiors, etc. We've apparently decided that we want our cars with black paint and black leather -- it is very difficult to find cars with more imaginative color combinations, or without certain packages.
I don't fault the dealers, though, car buying is: test drive and buy on Saturday and, if possible, drive it home on Saturday.
My wife's friend bought a very nice new car, about $70K before discount. A long Saturday test drive, followed by an offer, followed by a pick up on Monday. Wham bam, thank you m'am.
Now, the car in question looked like the Batmobile (well, sort of) and it is a very very nice ride. But, this method of picking out a $70K car seems like settling. I guess it is possible the car was configured EXACTLY as wanted, so ordering it was unnecessary.
But, why not take the time to "build" the car just like many of us build the houses we live in, the suits we wear, etc; and, then wait for the thing to be fabricated to your specifications?
Clearly, there is something wrong with me.
I am thinking that I purchased ONE new Audi off the lot and purchased one "previously owned" Audi (essentially off the lot, too) out of 32 of them. I kept the new one I bought off the lot for less than 12 months because it wasn't equipped to my liking. See, something's just not right with me.
The last time I was in Germany was 2005 -- at that time, the Audi dealer in Munich I spoke with said they keep no inventory other than cars for test drives because "everyone" orders their cars. Well, sure, I thought, you're in Munich -- but the same thing is true in Zurich. Folks decide to buy a car, work with a dealer rep to order the car, wait 4-6 weeks and pick it up -- getting EXACTLY the car they wanted. Is this still European practice?
Anyway, if you don't want a sunroof, order the damn car without it -- it's your money after all.
When we bought my wife's Outback in February, she wanted a specific color and option group. Fortunately, a local dealer had one coming in equipped exactly that way, so it was a fairly easy transaction. But, should I find myself in the market for a car with that price range, I'd have no problem ordering it to my exact specs.
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2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige
Some people also buy because they need a car quickly. Others aren't that picky about ever option, as long as it looks good, and has the important stuff. Or with a Honda, they are all the same!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I think there is a strong feedback loop in this - people want an instant gratifications, so the dealers and manufacturers adjusted to that world view by taking large inventories of product (nowhere else in the world car dealers have such enormous inventory) - which in turn conditions them to attempt to push for sales of what they already have (financing cost of the inventory) rather some future product that may even get canceled. Sale can be really booked when when the product and funds changes hands, not when order is made and just a small deposit is made. The finality of spot delivery gives a lot of incentives to everybody involved to accept what is there, rather than what may be there. This of course creates sales people with blank stares and puzzled looks when they meet a "pickey" cutomer (like me), who wants an exact color, style and options and is willing to wait for it. Customers know that, too and they know their power of instant gratification works the other way, as well as their own. Unit taken off the lot today, is one with no more financing cost.
I always read that an ordered car should be less expensive than one from the lot, because it's not financed. This is true in theory, but the psychology works in exactly opposite direction. The sales people act like they're making you a favor by accepting a future order rather than taking the car from the lot (and for reasons stated above, they may even believe that), which means you should pay for that "favor". If you were more "accommodating" to their immediate needs (take one unit from the lot), they may be more "accommodating", too. As a result, some people who would be willing to wait hear they could get extra $1000 off the car on the lot (even if it doesn't make any sense from cost-plus point of view), so they adjust their expectation and take one with a different color or wrong options, just so they can believe they got a better deal. It even works for them long term, as such a customer, who bought a "deal" may be more willing to accelerate next purchase, as they may never get over that color, or those wrong options.
That's how the feedback loop closes - since people are willing to accept "imperfect" product, why change the business model that "works"?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Now I decided to check out an Audi dealer in Birmingham UK. They have 174 Audis in stock and a total of 896 among it's 4 locations. I checked out a couple of Audi dealers in Frankfurt and Berlin. Each has about 100 new Audis in stock but when you do a search, it returns 5,790 new vehicles available - I'm guessing those are all the Audis in stock somewhere in Germany. A dealer in Paris has 37 vehicles in stock.
So even in oh so special Europe, it looks like it's easy to buy off the lot like a plebe.
My local dealer has 319 Audis in stock. Following is the color breakdown:
Gray 104
Black 93
Blue 49
White 34
Silver 31
Brown 5
Red 3
It's all relative. Don't compare Birmingham to Paris
Europe has quadruple number of versions and options of same models sold in the US. 3-series had something like 4 gas and 4 diesel engines available, many options stand alone, etc. What here is a four-five page option sheet, there is a thirty-fifty page book. It costs over twice as much, of course. But I'm sure there is still plenty of inventories for those wanting one today. There may me more warehouses there, rather than actual dealers lots. It's quite common there to have a showroom downtown and off-site lot in commercial suburbs.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I think this discussion is more about the small # of fanatics that obsess about certain things like a moonroof impacting COG. Or a stick shift! Very few people track their cars. Including BMW and audi buyers. So not many folks will wait 10 weeks to get a unit without a moonroof. They just keep the shade closed.
So outside of truly custom builds (off the menu). With all the inventory around, you can probably find 95% of anything in a few days.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Same thing, Benz - there may be 50 or 100 units in C-class on a local major dealer lot (TB Mercedes), yet ZERO (literally) with real leather, all that fake stuff. This is how it were at some point, anyway - perhaps today they have one, who knows. That's what people buy, they say. It may be true. Leather is expensive at Benz and the fake stuff looks "just as good" - so they say. I wouldn't know, as there isn't even a single one to inspect.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I've not even attempted to order an American car, although when I test drove a new CTS, I got the sense "it would not be necessary," since "anything" could be found using the dealer locator software. I didn't pursue this path, so I don't know how accurate that statement was.
At my dealership, my salesrep claims he would rather send people out on test drives of the various models and then sign up new customers to order the exact cars they want. He says this is because so many of their cars are "on allocation." Apparently, this means you will allocated so many A7's (for instance) and that is it -- be guided accordingly. This excludes "ordered" cars.
The Audi leasing system devalues Prestige Audis residuals, so the dealers, knowing that the vast majority of the cars they sell will be leased, order in Premium Plus models which have higher residuals, hence lower monthly payments. My wife wanted (hold on) the heated cup holder in her 2014 SQ5 -- guess what? Only comes on the Prestige model (of course). The tracking headlights, too, Prestige only.
We got around the lease penalty by buying the car @ 2% APR -- no lease residual hit. I'm assuming, however, that the trade in value will be lower since the car has virtually everything on top of being a Prestige.
Here's another issue with the current American Way of buying: there is virtually no opportunity to experience certain options, since the dealer rarely stocks cars with (for example only) Blind Spot Monitoring or Top View Camera, etc. Also it is virtually impossible to find a car with sports seats in stock since "sport seats" only come on cars equipped with "summer only" tires and here in SW Ohio, no one wants summer tires, and so on.
The Munich dealer, on the other hand, seemed to have at least ONE of everything (to test, but not to buy) so that the customer could see it, feel it, hear it, experience it and drive it.
I'm not sure what "oh so special Europe" suggests, but it seems somewhat of a dis. I'm not saying the [apparent] "European way" should be adopted here in the US. Most folks seem happy with buying off the lot -- to each his/her own self be true --and the cars that I want can still be ordered exactly as I want them, so we do have a system that certainly seems like it's working.
As a further point of clarification, hundreds of thousands of people -- check that, millions of people -- build new houses (or they hire companies and contractors to do so). I realize that many of these built houses are from "Home Building" companies that offer customers "The Pemberton," "The Gladstone," and "The Barrington" (or some such names) that are floor-plans that allow some customization (kind of like a car). There are also custom "Home Builders" that will build it entirely your way. And, there are local builders who offer highly customizabel houses based on a couple dozen blueprints. Even those who do not build their houses from the dirt up typically shop until they find the facing and floor-plan that satisfies certain criteria. Some folks take months and months of house hunting before they pull the trigger on a $400,000 house, but will turn around and buy a $40,000 car after a 15 minute test drive (and they buy car after car after car the same way). Some folks probably spend more money on cars over a 20 to 30 year real estate mortgage term than they do on the house they call home -- always settling for what's on the lot.
What a world.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I guess though this is a board about higher end, more expensive cars. So out of the mainstream!
It also would suck if your car died, and you had to wait 12 weeks for a replacement.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Another reason for European market being the way it is, stems from simple price-to-income relationship. Cost of a new car may be there in similar proportion to our cost of house. People buy and keep them for much longer, they cost more not just in dollars, but even more in relation to their earnings power. When you see that, it's easy to understand why somebody would get exactly what they want. If one trades cars every three years, there is always "next time" for the dream car, whatever it actually means.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
101 CLA Class in stock - 22 with leather 22%
109 C Class in stock - 38 with leather 35%
91 E Class in stock - 60 with leather 66%
986 Total in stock - 457 with leather 46%
Notice as the base price goes up, more leather in stock.
Dealers stock what people want. It's a $2300 upcharge for leather in the C300. That's 6%. I would guess that more than half of all C's are leased. The C300 leases at that magical price of $399 a month. Add another $50 a month for leather and it crosses that threshold where some folks start to get nervous.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
C300: 130+ units, FIVE leather
C400: 50+ units, TWO leather
I may be wrong by one or two units.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
But, perhaps the system is set up that way -- folks go to the auto dealership thinking they want a dark blue metallic car with an ecru interior but, for the sake of -- what? -- expediency end up with gloss black paint and a light gray interior.
All I am saying (about myself) is I grew up in the 1960's when a brand new Chrysler Newport was under $4,000 -- which, for my parents, was a HUGE purchase. Since it (the 1963 Chrysler Newport) was my parent's first new car ever, they wanted (god knows why) seafoam metallic (a kind of medium green with a shiny tinge to it), automatic transmission, an AM radio with a rear seat speaker, a rear window defroster and power steering and power brakes. My parents thought (I assume) since they were "spending a young fortune" they should get exactly what they wanted, not necessarily just what was on the lot.
That mode of thinking stuck with me. Me -- not you, not other 'mericans, apparently.
My way is not correct for anyone else but me (but it might be, for all I know) -- it is, however, not incorrect.
Considering it would be less expensive if we ordered cars and considering that ordering a new car is almost the only way to get exactly the car you want, I simply struggle with the notion of "test drive and buy today." Clearly cars are bought in less than logical or even financially advantageous ways. Makes some sense, though, since cars are very emotional "things" -- or, better said, "cars make US, emotional and irrational."
Here's another "shocking" data point -- my friend who owns several car dealerships claims that less than 50% of people even bother to test drive a car anymore. I assume (doesn't make it so) this must have something to do with the age of the Internet.
I leave you as a product of my time -- which had its formative years in the '60's and '70's, apparently.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I have test driven an X6 -- and NOW, I know I wouldn't buy one, but at the time, it did seem like it was possible. Also test drove an Acura ZDX, for the money, it was better than the X6, but, for the money, I'd go with an MDX and pocket the $10,000. Likewise, I just CAN'T justify an Audi A7 or S7 when, since I have driven both, there is an A6 and S6 that are as far as I am concerned identical. Now, I do like the looks of an A7, but not $10,000 more than I like an A6, and so on.
I tested a couple of Jeeps (even the SRT 8 version) whilst we were shopping for the SQ5.
I can't see myself testing a Malibu -- just not interested, nothing against the car, per se, just not for me.
Same with a KIA Soul (is that spelled correctly?) -- but I would try (and have) an Optoma and am interested in a Genesis as a possible old-fart's alternative to an A6 for when I am 73, not 63, perhaps. And so forth.
I don't want to waste the dealer's time nor my time -- but test driving is both good education and good fun (or at least it can be both).
I'll not be testing a VW bug anytime soon, but I have tested the Toureg (and the Cayenne) and the Q7, too -- a VW CC sure is purty and in AWD trim could be #11 on my top 10, so to speak.
Within reason -- REASON -- I would think dealers need as many folks of means testing their cars as they can get their hands on. My wife and I test drove an Acadia a number of times -- came moderately close to moving on it, instead went with a 2011 FX35 (Infiniti).
If "y'all" want to comment with both an informed and entertained perspective on this forum, I would think that, plus your love and passion for cars would make you want to carve out at least one weekend every other month or so for test drive after test drive after test drive.
But, on the other hand, kids, in-laws, dogs and cats, broken pipes and blown A/C compressors can sometimes get in the way of the 'serious bidness' of test driving cars [for a living].
Drive it like you live.
Performance wise, the only thing it seems to lack is a proper set of shoes (Good Year Eagle LS All Season hardly qualifies as a performance tire) and some stronger brakes (easy upgrade as well).
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
But we all know that American want that "instant" gratification, of walking into a dealer test drive, deal, and drive off with said car. Waiting 4-6 weeks is a life time to many Americans. I also do not think the dealers are willing to explain that the buyer can order a car of their choosing. Which I don't understand since the dealer wouldn't be paying interest on these cars and would be off the lot the following day it arrives...
The German brand salespeople are usually well trained to accept orders and act like they're happy about it (even if they preferred to sell us something from the lot). Moreover, they generally have a system where every car has an order behind it (it usually is a sales manages, sometimes actual customer). They even have some "special order" options (like colors) that require actual end customer for production (managers sometimes create a virtual Joe Smith to work the system).
Try make an order at a Honda dealer - you get rolling eyes, laugh, dismissal, or even anger. Not to mention that Honda itself simply doesn't build ordered cars - it builds whatever it thinks will sell and then MAYBE you get lucky when one of those cars will be what you ordered. There is some chance, as they generally limit possible combinations.
BTW, those who make argument that order should be cheaper because it doesn't cost as much (no financing), it's true only in theory. In aggregate, all cars pay for the financing, including those that did not bear that direct cost. Also, if that logic was correct, a "lot queen" sitting there for months should have a premium sticker slapped onto it to cover that interest - but it's quite the opposite, isn't it? Because pricing decisions are only loosely linked to actual cost. The other parts are demand, psychology, planning, volume incentives, etc.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Never impressed with their VW dealer, and haven't as yet been able to do business with them.
Look at the option list for a 3-series, then for an Accord. Big difference. Really, the only "options" are for dealer added accessories. You want leather for your LX? Sure, here's the Katzkin catalog. Can't get it from the factory. At all.
But you can option up a 320i to $45K if you tick all the boxes.
It's not comparing apples to oranges. More like apples to coffee tables.
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2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige
only exception might be if you are holding out for a stick shift. There may be a few theoretical configurations (like a Navi) that don't exist in reality.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Then the US marketing decided they were going to make the cars bigger and softer and cheaper - just like a Toyota! Except that with Toyota you at least get inexpensive parts, a better service experience (usually) than the horrible and uneven VW experience, and much higher reliability! At the time I said that was a mistake, as why would you buy a Jetta turned Corolla when you could just buy a more reliable Corolla? And while VW was claiming they were going to sell a million cars/year in the US in five years, we see how that all happened. They sold like 390K or something last year and are less than half their targets.
They are afraid to let the consumer go home and think about it... either getting cold feet or shopping the deal.
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Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
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2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige
IF you want a 320i, but want leather and sunroof, you can do that and stay in the 320i model, if you want a 320i with sport package and manuel transmission yup, you can stay with the 320i... Sure I can go and purchase a fully loaded Accord EX-V6 for 35K, but it's still an appliance...
If you love Black or Grey leather interior then the Accord is your car, They do not have Tan in the sedan, and I doubt they have it in the coupe either. In the lower range Accord, they only offer it in two colors, Grey and Steel., you have to move up to and above the EX=L to get other body colors.
Acura is the same, the have a limited selection of color combo's, if you want a MDX with a blue exterior, then you will have to settle for black or grey interior.
Didn't we just talk about not having to settle when buying a car?