Midsize Sedans 2.0

roadburner · December 2022

I prefer something around 185" or less.

sda · December 2022

andres3 said:

benjaminh said:
Here's a photo of the wheel and tire on the Accord Touring 2.0.

Huge wheel, tiny rotors.

I know it has been 2 years since this was posted but those rims and the current similar rims need better rim protector type tires. The majority that I've seen as a used car typically have significant curb rash on the rims.

Sandman6472 · December 2022

Do like it honestly but 185" should be the end of it, don't want it too long. Really like the new Civic a lot to, just wish it were a bit smaller to fit on my side of the garage. Now since they have a hatchback, I'd definitely consider one but at 182", just too long. Drove a newer CR-V the other day and was very impressed with the way it drove. Acceleration was very smooth up the power bound and it did everything well. Got out of it with a smile on my face as if I needed a SUV right now, this would be the one!

jipster · January 2023

I'm averaging 36.2 mpg in my 4 cyl 2020 Accord. Full size space but handles like a car much smaller

backy · February 2023

I think mid-sized cars are dying because of: 1) SUVs, 2) mid-sized cars are getting too big, 3) compacts are about the size of mid-sized cars from a few years ago, and 4) did I mention SUVs?

I have a 2020 Forte and it's plenty big and roomy for my needs, plus it gets 50 mpg on the highway. I'm just glad I got it before prices got obscene. It's worth $2-3k more now than I paid for it, including lease up-fronts and payments and the buyout after 2 years.

And we just bought a 2023 Bolt EV for my wife. Cost less than a base Civic even before the Federal tax credit (plus my home fast charger was nearly free after Chevy and electric company rebates), plenty roomy inside but very short, thus a breeze to park, with versatility of a wagon. Quiet, smooth, quick, and about 120 MPGe (worse in the winter of course, but so are ICE cars). Perfect car for 98% of our driving, and we have the Forte for longer trips or when both of us are driving at the same time.

roadburner · February 2023

185" is my limit for a sedan these days- the length of an E34 5 series.

stickguy · February 2023

basically the current "mid size" models (Camry, Accord, etc.) are what I consider full size, and the compacts are what was definitely a mid-size not long ago. So Jetta, Civic, etc. now in that 182-185" range, which to me is just about right for a sedan.

Michaell · February 2023

My '03 Saturn L300 was just over 190" long. The '16 Jetta was 183", and my '93 Accord was 185".

Our '02 Explorer was shorter than the Saturn...

kyfdx · February 2023

@backy Where've you been for the last two years?

Sandman6472 · February 2023

Looked into buying a 2023 Chevy Bolt but stopped the process just before I handed over the check to hold my position. This was back in April of 2022 as I recall...just wasn't ready to purchase anything. Would love to know how you're liking it/disliking it as I still might give it another chance. About to hit 73K on my VW now and after taking it through the car wash today, amazed at how good it still looks. One could never tell it was in an accident except for the non-matching door edge guard in the rear drivers door. Besides a nick on the front hood from the garage door hitting it after I backed into the garage, looks brand new. Drives like brand new also the reason it's still in our garage...no logical reason to trade it right now.

backy · February 2023

Sandman6472 said:
Looked into buying a 2023 Chevy Bolt but stopped the process just before I handed over the check to hold my position. This was back in April of 2022 as I recall...just wasn't ready to purchase anything. Would love to know how you're liking it/disliking it as I still might give it another chance. About to hit 73K on my VW now and after taking it through the car wash today, amazed at how good it still looks. One could never tell it was in an accident except for the non-matching door edge guard in the rear drivers door. Besides a nick on the front hood from the garage door hitting it after I backed into the garage, looks brand new. Drives like brand new also the reason it's still in our garage...no logical reason to trade it right now.

We love the Bolt. It's a perfect city car, i.e. anything up to about 200 miles round trip. Stated range is 259, but in winter below 20 F or so it's much less. I think I'll be able to better the 259 in warmer weather in the city, but we'll see. Most of our trips are less than 25 miles total. And short trips is where gas cars are worst, and the Bolt is best. Love the smoothness & quiet, smooth ride, roominess (not much cargo room unless rear seat is folded though), visibility, telematics, remote start via phone app. One-pedal driving is great, I almost never need to touch the brake. Very low maintenance, pretty much just tire rotations and inspections, and stuff like wiper blades and cabin filters.

If you're interested in one, NOW is the time to get it as it qualifies for the $7,500 Federal tax credit through March I think. That makes the 1LT $19,000 + TTL. After March the credit will be less, maybe $3,750? And some states have their own incentives. I read that in Oregon, one can get a base Bolt EV for about $10k after all rebates and incentives.

backy · February 2023

kyfdx said:
@backy Where've you been for the last two years?

Not driving much, for sure! Also I haven't owned a mid-sized car for several years and won't be buying one. After taking my Forte on a 3200 mile trip to Texas at the end of 2021 and to Chicago last summer, getting 47 mpg on the Texas trip and 51 on the Chicago trip, I don't know why I'd want a "mid-sized" car. After 3+ years it has only 19k miles on it, and I'm driving it less now that I have the Bolt, so it should last 15 years or more--if someone doesn't steal it first (thanks, Kia!).

Sandman6472 · February 2023

That's just it, I'm also not driving much at all. If I do 2500 miles/year now, I'm lucky...just hardly driving much. So buying something new just doesn't make much sense to be honest. My Golf has been behaving itself, no crazy lights or leaks, so makes no sense to just let it go. And right now, no way I want to upset my portfolio by selling enough to pay cash for it. And taking out a car loan, haven't done that since 1981 for $2500 and after we got married, it was paid off completely. My new wife explained that she didn't like any unnecessary debt and if we didn't have the cash available, we just didn't purchase at that time. The only large debt we had was our mortgage which we paid off very early. And now, I don't even like to carry any balance on any of our credit cards.
But, will give the Bolt another look see. My local dealer never has one on the lot to test drive, a bad idea really. Up to now, I've only driven a Tesla once & a Polestar twice, so my experience with EV's is rather limited, truth be told. I do remember the brisk acceleration at first & the immediate fear when I took my foot off and the forward momentum just kind of dies. In that second or two, as traffic was bearing down on my, I just feathered the accelerator to get moving forward again. Was a real quick learning curve as no one told me what to expect. Need to get online & see if there are any changes since I was last logged in. And then, will go from there.
Sounds like y'all are super happy with the ownership experience which helps. As much as I want to get something new, don't want to screw it up like I did with the Tucson I had for just over a year back in 2014, so will give this whole situation a lot of thought. I might get back with you in the future.

benjaminh · December 2023

The new 2025 Camry looks like an impressive mid-size sedan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKOamyl7KkI

stickguy · December 2023

really like the interior (other than the "flying sail" panel on the center console by the passenger). Looks very nice from the side and rear. But man, that front end, maybe it looks better in person? But love the drivetrain.

though my pet peeve continues, skinny sidewall tires on a family sedan!

benjaminh · December 2023

Agree on the front styling of the 2025 Camry. I prefer the front styling of the "Luxury" Camry XLE more than Sport XSE. We can guess that the base 2025 LE hybrid, which wasn't shown, will start at around $30k, which is going to be a good value for a car with 225 horsepower that gets 50 mpg, and goes 0-60 in around 7 seconds. Overall, I like the styling of the new Camry slightly more than the current and very bland Accord. The Camry also looks more premium inside now than the Accord, which in comparison seems more like old GM rental car. Since I've preferred Honda over Toyota for as long as I can remember, it's a bit of a shock that for 2025 I'd prefer the Camry.

But when it comes to Honda, we know that the Civic of the last several years is same size of an Accord from the early 1990s—and so the Civic is a midsize sedan too. The owner in the video below, who drives over 100,000 miles a year delivering medical equipment and samples, now has over 700,000 miles on his 2017 Civic EX turbo. Scotty K a few years ago predicted that these small Honda turbos wouldn't last long, but in this case obviously he was wrong. The owner of the 2017 Civic with this incredible mileage is on his original engine, transmission, and even his original clutch. He does baby the car in how he drives it, and changes his oil frequently.

Why I'm particularly interested in this car is the 1.5 Turbo, because my wife has a more powerful version of this engine in her 2018 CR-V EX, and we now have 52,000 miles on it. We change the oil with full synthetic about every 7-8k miles, which is a bit before Honda's Maintenance Minder says (I try to take it in when it's around "30%" of oil life), but on youtube there are some who still recommend 5k oil changes for Hondas, and say that the MM's predicted oil life monitor is not designed for getting maximum life out of your engine. I'm hoping that by using full synthetic, which isn't required, plus changing it a bit early, that the engine will still last a long time. But apparently Honda's 1.5T does once in a while wear out head gaskets, which I'm guessing is probably about a $2k or so repair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5M3IBLhDs0&t=35s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZTJw0yG6Gg

roadburner · December 2023

Every time I see or hear that buffoon I'm reminded that somewhere, a village is missing its idiot.

stickguy · December 2023

Key to the 700k civic, a manual! The way to go if you want it to last. No CVT. that and driving a lot. I believe it’s better to use the car every day and heat it up than to sit around a lot and do short drives.

I assume our RDX 2.0 is an expanded version of the 1.5 though it could be a different design. Given it will turn 4 in 3 months and currently has 23,000 miles we don’t do a lot of miles between changes (I think it has had 4 already). I won’t be taking anything past a 5k interval, if only because I will hit 1 year first!

With a GDI turbo engine sludge and gunk is what will kill them. Better to change a little early than a little late.

benjaminh · December 2023

The Honda Accord/CR-V CVT is a fairly heavy-duty transmission. From anecdotal posts found at youtube and elsewhere it seems like with good maintenance they can often last to 200k, and sometimes even more. For instance, here's a recent post from driveaccord.net:

"For what it is worth my friend has an 2013 Accord with the CVT going strong at 250,000 miles. He is very meticulous when it comes to his cars so I am sure he has changed the fluids according to the maintenance schedule."

But obviously they do fail sometimes. Looking at this teardown of one, these CVTs do look both heavy-duty and complicated. Guessing that a replacement CVT is at least c. $3k for the unit alone? Then another 1-2k for installation.

One good thing about the Honda CVT is high mpg. Just yesterday we took a c. 450 mile highway drive in our CR-V AWD and got 35 mpg on regular gas going mostly 65-70 mph. That's 2 mpg above the epa highway rating for this car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16u2eYfX9-g&t=1271s

benjaminh · December 2023

A year ago or so my local Hyundai dealer was trying to charge thousands over msrp on every vehicle, but now they are back to bargain pricing. $24k for a brand-new Sonata is a good value, at least for the 10 years/100k of the engine warranty. You can have a Sonata for less than the msrp of a base Civic LX (and my Honda dealer is still trying to charge thousands over msrp on everything they have). Base model Sonatas these days are like loaded models from ten years ago. The Sonata includes standard adaptive cruise, heated side mirrors with turn signals, cross-traffic and back-up alert, led headlights, carplay/android auto, remote keyless entry etc.

https://www.oxmoorhyundai.com/inventory/new-2023-hyundai-sonata-se-fwd-4d-sedan-kmhl24ja5pa331257/

stickguy · December 2023

But it looks like a grouper

benjaminh · December 2023

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_grouper

ab348 · December 2023

stickguy said:
But it looks like a grouper

The Ioniq 6 really looks like a sea creature come ashore.

benjaminh · December 2023

This is the lowest-priced Model 3 near me, marked down by Tesla 3k off of list to less than $37k. Combined with the $7500 federal tax credit it becomes a $30k car + TTL. That's about the same size and the same price as a top-of-the-line Civic Touring, but the Tesla will save you about $900 a year in gas. Since the Tesla needs expensive tires, and needs them twice as often as a Civic, my guess is that savings would be less. But still, the Model 3 is the best value it's ever been. Around 2015 Tesla promised us a $35,000 electric sports car, and now you can get it in the US for $30k. If you adjust for inflation, 35k in 2015 would be around 45k today, and so actually it's less expensive than we were promised by quite a bit.

Michaell · December 2023

benjaminh said:
This is the lowest-priced Model 3 near me, marked down by Tesla 3k off of list to less than $37k. Combined with the $7500 federal tax credit it becomes a $30k car + TTL. That's about the same size and the same price as a top-of-the-line Civic Touring, but the Tesla will save you about $900 a year in gas. Since the Tesla needs expensive tires, and needs them twice as often as a Civic, my guess is that savings would be less. But still, the Model 3 is the best value it's ever been. Around 2015 Tesla promised us a $35,000 electric sports car, and now you can get it in the US for $30k. If you adjust for inflation, 35k in 2015 would be around 45k today, and so actually it's less expensive than we were promised by quite a bit.

Ah, but not everybody will qualify for the full $7500 tax credit, so those numbers are not quite accurate.

This is also a RWD vehicle, which I would think most folks, who were raised on FWD or AWD cars, would struggle with when the weather turns nasty.

(yes, I know that 40 years ago everyone drove RWD mastodons and nobody died, but I'm talking about the current generation of car buyers)

It will be interesting to see what happens on 1/1/2024, when the tax regulations change.

roadburner · December 2023

Michaell said:

This is also a RWD vehicle, which I would think most folks, who were raised on FWD or AWD cars, would struggle with when the weather turns nasty.

(yes, I know that 40 years ago everyone drove RWD mastodons and nobody died, but I'm talking about the current generation of car buyers)

Yes, American vehicle operators ("drivers" is far too generous a description) have been dumbed-down to an incredible degree- now the nitwits need FWD/AWD because "they need a car that they can drive when it rains."

benjaminh · December 2023

The rear-wheel-drive Model 3 sedan has a theoretical range, according to Tesla, of 272 miles, but real-world tests have shown that even if you run it to empty the real range at 70 mph is more like 250 miles, depending on weather and other factors. But no one wants to end up pushing their car, or waiting for a tow truck. And filling the battery to 100% and then draining it to 0% shortens its life. So I think the real highway range in a base Model 3, going from a c. 90% charge to c. 10%, is about 200 miles.

Compare that to a Civic turbo with the CVT, which is rated 42 mpg on the highway and has a 12.4 gallon tank. Leaving 1.4 gallons in reserve, the highway range of the Civic EX is about 460 miles. 200 miles compared to 460 miles is still a big difference.

For the last three and a half years our daughter (who has a learner's permit but doesn't yet drive) has lived about 225 miles away from us during the academic year. I've made that round-trip drive a lot, sometimes with my wife, but often solo. With a few stops, plus the turn-around time, it's about 8 hours round-trip. With my Acura TLX I can make it no problem without getting gas, because my highway mpg is around 36 to 40, and my car has a 17.2 gallon gas tank. My highway range is easily 550 miles, even with a 1.5 gallon reserve, usually more like 600. With a Tesla I'd need to add about half an hour of charging on the way there, and about half an hour on the way back. And realistically I'd need the Model 3 long range, which has a lab range of 330 miles ,and a real-world highway range of about 250 miles. By the end of the 8 hours, even with coffee, I'm starting to get tired. Adding an hour to that seems like a challenge.

benjaminh · December 2023

The VW ID.7 will be about 195 inches long, and might be priced starting around 50k. Looks like it'll have good rear visibility. Arriving in the middle of 2024. This is sort-of a replacement for the discontinued Passat.

https://www.vw.com/en/models/id-7.html

sda · December 2023

Looks nice, but they need to at least offer a hybrid. Then I could consider it to replace the Passat. Given my commute and periodic long distance travel I am not ready for a EV.

Sandman6472 · December 2023

Right now, I'm the perfect candidate for an EV vehicle due to the low miles I drive weekly. Some weeks, I don't even do 40 miles as I stay in a small radius around our house and have a round trip commute of 6.6 miles, three days a week. So, that's less then twenty miles and add in a couple of errands, and I'm at about forty/week. Got petrol on the 10th of December and have only used about 1/4 tank right now. So absolutely, an EV vehicle would work great for me. Bet I could charge it up maybe twice a month and still have leftover juice. But, just don't think we're quite ready to make the switch at this point. Having a better charger in the garage would be perfect but again, just not ready to pull the trigger.

We were at a local Chevy store last week and was surprised to see a blue Bolt EV in the showroom. It was a blue over black interior model, a 2LT I think, the model I almost bought in the summer of 2022. Prefer the alloys of the lower model as the 2LT alloy has too much black for my tastes. I had signed most of the paper work for a light blue model but hesitated at the last minute and never gave my deposit or signed the final buy order. The price was around $27K which I thought was great but just decided to pause the purchase...was just not ready to make the switch. And to this day, think it was the right decision.

benjaminh · December 2023

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lo3OCdUN1M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNe75StExhY

benjaminh · December 2023

This is an interesting and very detailed comparison of hybrid systems by a mechanic with many years of experience. He clearly admired the engineering at both Honda and Toyota, but in the long-run the Toyota hybrid system is going to be longer lasting and more reliable. The Toyota hybrid system also gets slightly better mpg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg3W-qzZJrg

benjaminh · December 2023

The next-generation Toyota Camry for 2025, which should be out by March or so, looks impressive. The current Camry LE hybrid lists for about $30k with destination, and my guess is that the 2025 base LE model, now with the hybrid standard, will be about $31k. Here's Toyota's press release:

https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-unveils-the-powerful-and-purely-hybrid-next-generation-camry/

"....Powering the Camry is Toyota’s first-ever sedan pairing of its 2.5-liter, 4-cylinder engine and fifth-generation Toyota Hybrid System (THS 5). Combining the engine’s power with two electric motors, this dynamic new HEV has a standard 225 net combined horsepower on Front Wheel Drive (FWD) models and 232HP on Electronic On-Demand All-Wheel Drive (AWD) equipped models....

The next generation model comes with a standard smart-key with push-to-start button, and a dual-zone automatic climate control system with rear air vents....

The Camry also has a retuned suspension for enhanced responsiveness and agile handling which adds a sense of thrill when taking on those twisting and turning roads. The sport grades have a specific sport-tuned suspension with increased comfort, while still providing even greater stability, handling, and confidence behind the wheel....

The Toyota Audio Multimedia System includes a standard 8-inch touchscreen display or an available 12.3-inch screen. The system includes standard wireless Apple CarPlay® and Android Auto™ compatibility, and pairs well with the standard Qi wireless charging pad. The Camry also offers a standard combination of USB-A and USB-C ports, with three in the front and two in the rear across all grades....

The Toyota Camry comes standard with Blind Spot Monitor, which is designed to help detect and warn you of vehicles approaching or positioned in the adjacent lanes, with Rear Cross-Traffic Alert for added peace of mind by helping to detect vehicles approaching from either side while backing out and alerting you with a visual and audible warning."

In addition to all that, it looks like SiriusXM is standard as well.

With 232 hp standard, that probably means a 0-60 time of less than 7 seconds.

All that while getting about 50 mpg in combined city/hwy driving.

For c.$31k that's going to be impossible to beat. In the long-running battle between Accord and Camry, the Camry looks like it's going to be the better car in most ways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fawUGYXBtHY&t=330s

Michaell · December 2023

Except for that grille. I'd be happy to sacrifice some MPGs for a car that looks better (ie, the Accord)

roadburner · December 2023

Michaell said:
Except for that grille. I'd be happy to sacrifice some MPGs for a car that looks better (ie, the Accord)

I'd buy a CPO 330e.

benjaminh · December 2023

I think the XLE is okay, although I still wish they'd move a bit away from the giant grill look.

Sandman6472 · December 2023

Think I'd go with the Toyota version myself. Just wish they'd tweak the Corolla a bit as it's just too old for my tastes. Driving any Corolla is kind of boring to be honest, Big reason why I don't have a Corolla Cross on my side of the garage right now! Just too boring!! Looking for some excitement in my d d so not making any move yet. Am very ready to pull the trigger but nothing excites me enough to do it.

benjaminh · December 2023

The three best midsize sedans for 5-year cost-to-own, according to Kelley Blue Book. Edmunds has inflated costs for maintenance and repairs for the first 5 years, but KBB is more realistic. I still think these costs are too high.

https://www.kbb.com/new-cars/total-cost-of-ownership/

benjaminh · January 14

A review of the refreshed Sonata. I'm not sure about the styling yet, but the value is impressive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WknTCyn9CmY

sda · January 15

I find it interesting they stated the 1.6T was discontinued as they were having trouble with Turbos yet the Kia K5 continues with the 1.6T. Based on past history, the 2.5 Theta engine doesn’t give me the warm and fuzzies either.

Sandman6472 · January 18

Like the new shifter in the Hyundai Sonata and Kona, seems to be easier then the one in a BMW, which I have problems with. It's nice that the new shifters in many vehicles are getting smaller leaving more room between the two front seats to store stuff. We now have two Hyundai's in our stable with our daughter on her second Accent and my ownership of a 2014 Tucson, a vehicle that I only had for a little over a year. Hyundai and Kia are producing some great products and right now, am thinking of getting either a new 2024 Kona Limited or a 2023 Chevy Bolt.

stickguy · January 18

Shifter levers now are really just electric switches. And can be put anywhere in any style. Buttons, knobs, whatever you want.

roadburner · January 18

I still prefer the more traditional shift lever in my Wrangler. I adjusted to the "beer tap" in my BMWs but I never really cared for it. The current 3ers and other Bimmers now have nothing more than a toggle switch with a separate button to put the transmission in Park. Meh. I initially disliked the column shift in the C43 but I do prefer it to the toggle or the "dialing for ratios" selectors so many brands have adopted.

Sandman6472 · January 18

Guess I'm old school, like a shifter I can grab onto and knobs for the audio system. Hate to have to use my fingers like I do on my iPad because it really is a safety hazard as far as I'm concerned. But change and innovation is what folks seem to want so one has to live with it all. Just hope it easy to use.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles