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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217



    FN....just think of the fun you would have had if the Challenger you rented had a "Hemi".

    OR the speeding tickets....

    On the subject of Camry's, I have only rented two in the 5 yrs I was a road warrior, one was a fully loaded XLE V6, it had every bell and whistle that could be had in 2011, it was a nice car, drive well, but not that re-memorable. Ever since the runaway issue a couple of years ago, Camry sales have been down and I don't think Toyota has recovered from that.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    I don't know, the 90+ year old neighbor I have that gets a new car every 3 or 4 years has replaced his old Buick's with a Hyundai Azera, Sonata Hybrid, and now a Camry Hybrid, in that order.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    edited June 2015



    FN....just think of the fun you would have had if the Challenger you rented had a "Hemi".

    OR the speeding tickets....

    On the subject of Camry's, I have only rented two in the 5 yrs I was a road warrior, one was a fully loaded XLE V6, it had every bell and whistle that could be had in 2011, it was a nice car, drive well, but not that re-memorable. Ever since the runaway issue a couple of years ago, Camry sales have been down and I don't think Toyota has recovered from that.
    Come to think of it, I can't remember when I was last in a Toyota showroom.....and I shop cars a lot.

    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • billyperks4billyperks4 Member Posts: 57



    FN....just think of the fun you would have had if the Challenger you rented had a "Hemi".

    OR the speeding tickets....

    On the subject of Camry's, I have only rented two in the 5 yrs I was a road warrior, one was a fully loaded XLE V6, it had every bell and whistle that could be had in 2011, it was a nice car, drive well, but not that re-memorable. Ever since the runaway issue a couple of years ago, Camry sales have been down and I don't think Toyota has recovered from that.
    Come to think of it, I can't remember when I was last in a Toyota showroom.....and I shop cars a lot.

    We tend to upgrade-Mazda- Acura- BMW- what's my next upgrade? only time will tell.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,363
    I have nothing against Camrys but when a friend of mine said they were "great cars", I felt compelled to correct him saying, "good cars yes, but hardly great ones". I told him there was a reason why the USA was the only major market (including Japan IIRC) where the Camry was at or near the top in sales.

    Now Toyota is running ads proclaiming the "Bold, New Camry". Since doesn't look particularly new and has no outstanding performance characteristics I think they're making a mistake. These claims have little credibility
    and even worse, they are aimed at the wrong market since I think Camry shoppers would prefer safe, sturdy and reliable to bold or new.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    I think the Camry is also quiet and comfy, or at least should be. Camry buyers wouldn't mind a Lexus like interior either.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    Midsize entry-level lux sales in May:

    3/4series 12,868 +17.9%

    Cclass 7,413 +40.3%

    ES 5,553 -11.6%

    TLX 4,352

    IS 4,345 +2.5%

    LaCrosse 3,954 -15.5%

    Q50 3,423 +16.5%

    MKZ 3,296 -11.3%

    A4 2,785 -10.8%

    ATS 2,353 -5.8%

    Q40 1,164 -31.3%
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    andres3 said:

    I think the Camry is also quiet and comfy, or at least should be. Camry buyers wouldn't mind a Lexus like interior either.

    I would be bet there are more people who look at cars as an appliance then there are auto enthusiasts and for those who want an appliance, the Camry is a great car.. But Buick as well as Chevy are building some damn nice Appliances too, One of my last cars I rented when I was on the road was a Chrysler 200c, granted the auto mag's gave it luke warm review, it is a step in the right direction.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,381
    Poor Cadillac.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    ATS still getting hammered for some reason. Q40 needs an update.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    benjaminh said:

    Midsize entry-level lux sales in May:

    3/4series 12,868 +17.9%

    Cclass 7,413 +40.3%

    ES 5,553 -11.6%

    TLX 4,352

    IS 4,345 +2.5%

    LaCrosse 3,954 -15.5%

    Q50 3,423 +16.5%

    MKZ 3,296 -11.3%

    A4 2,785 -10.8%

    ATS 2,353 -5.8%

    Q40 1,164 -31.3%

    Interesting numbers that show the power of brand equity. BMW may have softer steering but their reputation will take decades to unravel even if they don't spiff up their latest 3-series. Audi is arguably nicer but look at their sales. And the ATS has had many raves for handling but Caddy doesn't have a great reputation (earned by decades of junk) and that's not going to change very quickly, either.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Cadillac is on the cusp of recovery I think. It takes a car company as long to crawl out of the hole it dug for itself, as it did to dig it in the first place. So if Cadillac went on the skids 1975-1995, then it's about time for a rebirth. But don't count on this company ever reclaiming its former glory from the 1950s. The market has expanded too much and the competition is a lot more fierce. The ATS and Q40 have to go head to head with some pretty nice cars.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    On the car sales data-would love to see the combined sales of both the a4 and a3 - have to think the a3 is gobbling up potential a4 buyers. Car is newer and is close in size.

    Side note - been off this forums for awhile -but did just earn my 8 year badge - yeah! anyone talk of the new MB 450 Amg - $50k to get in and a real looker - watch out s4 and 340 x cars

    http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/latest-reviews/2016-mercedes-benz-c450-amg-4matic-test-drive-review-article-1.2243979
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    stickguy said:

    Poor Cadillac.

    The CTS should be on the list too.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    CTS 1,792 -38.3%
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    sweendogy said:

    On the car sales data-would love to see the combined sales of both the a4 and a3 - have to think the a3 is gobbling up potential a4 buyers. Car is newer and is close in size.

    Side note - been off this forums for awhile -but did just earn my 8 year badge - yeah! anyone talk of the new MB 450 Amg - $50k to get in and a real looker - watch out s4 and 340 x cars

    http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/latest-reviews/2016-mercedes-benz-c450-amg-4matic-test-drive-review-article-1.2243979

    If they can keep it at $50K without stripping it of performance essentials; sounds like a good S4 competitor. I feel like the C400 and Volvo 60R are just trying to be "close." Then again, I'm not sure I could trust a company that thought merging with Chrysler was a good idea; shows lack of good judgment.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    @andres3 I think if it's sub 60 comp equipped then it's ball park- more power and awd seems like a real screamer - plus add in some Amg and boom - you have a real contender to the s4:/5 batman and robin. I'm sure the next 340 will be 350hp plus and I would also assume the next s will be closer to 4 then it is now. Can say this owning one it's amazing with the optional sports diff- best 1k you can buy- car is on rails at insane speeds into turns. One option that's a must - sure we all want the nav and special speakers but in the turns it's the real diff maker- this car with 19* and sports diff kicks [non-permissible content removed]. 
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    kyfdx said:

    Counterpoint..

    Camrys and Avalons are great... at doing what they were designed for. I'd posit that they are better at their intended function, than most of the cars in this discussion.

    As an ELLPS, probably not that great. But, that's not what they are.

    95% of the buying public has no interest or need for an ELLPS. They need reliable, comfortable, efficient transportation. The Camry and Avalon are great at that.

    Don't see how that has an effect on how great your ELLPS might be. Maybe it's the 95% of people that you have a problem with, not the car companies that give them exactly what they want and need.

    Counter-counterpoint:

    With a smile on my face and malice toward none, this seems somewhat of an apology on behalf of Toyota. My point and question is why not build a great car at every price point. I do think the Toyota is probably a good car -- and, as someone says (not just someone but Voltaire, born in 1694) -- "good is the enemy of great."

    I would agree with something here -- "95% of the buying public has no . . . need for an ELLPS." Their interest level is harder to ascertain, but, assuming you are correct that 95% have no interest, I would be made both sad and fearful. I assume you assume they -- the 95% -- have no interest because . . .um, they have never been exposed to greatness (at THAT particular price point)?

    Let me give you an irrelevant comparison -- while growing up, my mother fixed this nasty-tasting "entree" she called salmon patties. They looked like a cross between a hamburger and what, today, I think of as a mostly-crab, crab-cake. The taste, after frying was, well, horrible. But, hey, it's Friday so well it was either fried smelt or salmon patties; so after a while I actually ate the salmon patties entirely. I don't think I ever liked them, but I did learn to tolerate them. Eventually, in a sentimental, not logical or rational, moment I was told I actually said (I deny this) "salmon patties are good." Perhaps, salmon patties are good compared to, er, hmm, DIRT!

    Time and tide, time and tide -- and I eat (in college) at a nice restaurant and the special of the day is salmon. First off, when it comes, I barely recognize it, and then when I taste it, I know for sure "this sure as hell isn't salmon!" Salmon is great, I love salmon -- I had grown to accept canned salmon [allegedly] as good.

    How much is an Avalon or a Camry? Don't answer that, the point is not how much it costs it's that for THAT much money, it ought to be possible to build a great car, not just a good one that has a lot of stuff for the money. Now, if the stuff is what actually makes it great -- and NOT the driving experience or its capabilities -- well, then I don't know what we're all talking about here. We COULD add navigation and blu-tooth to a Trabant I would assume, but that wouldn't make it even a good car, it would still be a bad car that just happen to have sat-nav.

    I don't think everyone needs or wants or should need or want an ELLPS -- I do think we all deserve to know what real salmon tastes like, so to speak. These super popular ['good' car] brands, Toyota being the one I chose to exemplify my point, are just one of the contributors the great dumbing-down we're "enjoying" these days.

  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    I earned a LOL badge today my life is now complete 
  • thebeanthebean Member Posts: 1,216
    My creed has always been "Don't let great be the enemy of good enough".  When I worked for a government contractor, we had to continually stress to our design engineers that the customer asked for a Chevy and we shouldn't build a Rolls Royce.  

    Mainstream cars (in my case Hondas) are good enough for 95% of US drivers.  I have had fresh salmon - two Mercedes bought new - but Honda/Toyota/etc serve my purposes perfectly.  We each should buy what fills our needs, and no one should belittle those choices.  You were not doing that but I have seen others that do so.  I would never buy an Audi because of the stories I have heard about long-term quality issues.  But, I don't hate Audi.  Just don't want one.  

    Your mileage may vary. :)
    2015 Honda Accord EX, 2019 Honda HR-V EX
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    edited June 2015
    Well, I think it increasingly looks like Mark is belittling others' choices. Seems like it's not enough for him that he wouldn't buy Toyota, he doesn't want you buy one, either - because if you do, the world will be in his words "dumbed down". Those who don't care about great handling, but just want an inexpensive, reliable, made well-enough transportation from A to B should get their priorities straightened out, or else.

    It's a bit like somebody lamenting all those factory-made suits - if everybody just went to a tailor, world would be so much better place, wouldn't it (we wouldn't have to look at cheap suits)? Never mind half of the population wouldn't be able to afford them, but hey, who cares - we would have beautiful suits for probably slightly lower price than today (a few more tailors competing).

    There is no bread? Then let them eat cake.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    It is true, I hope for the stuff we humans produce to be great -- and I would hope everyone would have the opportunity to enjoy everything they experience and have at the highest level possible at a given price point.

    What or where or when did I suggest that I would compare a Rolls to a Honda. My point has been to start a conversation regarding greatness at a given price point -- any price point. Somehow, however, it seems that we're actually now saying that "good enough" is, hmm, good enough.

    Do we now tell our children, their teachers, our leaders, etc, that it is "OK" to not go for great?

    How could it belittle anyone to urge them to strive for "the best" (at every price point) -- I've not suggested that the customer who shops for a Chevy is any less entitled to the best (at that price point) than is the Rolls buyer (at that price point).

    Everything made and done is not great -- I assume we all would agree to that. I am hoping to spark the conversation to perhaps contemplate that we simply shouldn't settle for good enough no matter how much or little we pay.

    I just think that good enough or good has begat an erosion of what we'll accept -- hence the term dumbing-down. We, at times, seem complacent -- we accept good enough, we don't "demand" great.

    Again and finally -- I keep saying "at every, at any . . .price point."

    Good enough isn't.

  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    You simply are not going to get a great car, by YOUR definition , for the $20k that a base Camry goes for.  To most of those that buy one I would venture to say they consider it a great car by THEIR definition.  You can feel sorry for them for not recognizing excellence but I doubt they care. Self awareness is a wonderful thing.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,158
    edited June 2015
    But again, how do you define great? Some people could not care less how it drives. Some people see great as super-reliable, low prices and low cost to operate. That is "great" for THEM. Who are you, sir to define what "great" means to THEM?

    BTW, I also think "great" should also include how it drives, but others seemingly disagree. I simply don't assume to have authority to know what great means for everybody. I just know what it means to me.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited June 2015
    Exactly. I could tell you all the reasons why my Mini Cooper S is a "great" car---compact, fast, great on gas, good-looking, room for a 6-footer, plenty of room for basic luggage & carrying stuff, solidly built, really fun to drive, easy to park, the perfect City car.....and yet, put another person in that same car and you might hear: "too small...I don't need all that power....I don't like the speedometer in the middle of the dashboard.....rides too hard....expensive to repair...mediocre reliability record....too pricey for such a small car...."

    And we would both be absolutely correct.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,288
    dino001 said:

    But again, how do you define great? Some people could not care less how it drives. Some people see great as super-reliable, low prices and low cost to operate. That is "great" for THEM. Who are you, sir to define what "great" means to THEM?

    BTW, I also think "great" should also include how it drives, but others seemingly disagree. I simply don't assume to have authority to know what great means for everybody. I just know what it means to me.

    Agreed, the same thing is true with home theater equipment, some people are happy as a pig in mud with a 42" LED and an Insignia HTIB. Others aren't happy unless they have the latest projector, four subs, and $15k worth of amps and processors. Everyone has their own comfort level as I see it. When I install a HTS for someone the first thing I ask is how much money they want to spend- then I try to find the absolute best components to meet that price point.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    dino001 said:

    But again, how do you define great? Some people could not care less how it drives. Some people see great as super-reliable, low prices and low cost to operate. That is "great" for THEM. Who are you, sir to define what "great" means to THEM?

    BTW, I also think "great" should also include how it drives, but others seemingly disagree. I simply don't assume to have authority to know what great means for everybody. I just know what it means to me.

    I find this whole discussion funny, I made a comment a week or so ago that, the people who buy Camry's and Accords do so because they like them and they think they are great cars.. So that is who defines them as being great. I like Mark, but the Camry is beneath he and his wife, he has every right not to call the Camry or Accord not great cars.

    Some people look at cars are appliances, and those are the people who look at a 20K Camry and call them great, they don't care about handling or acceleration, they are looking for a comfortable car that starts every time they get into and doesn't cost a lot of money to maintain.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217


    Agreed, the same thing is true with home theater equipment, some people are happy as a pig in mud with a 42" LED and an Insignia HTIB. Others aren't happy unless they have the latest projector, four subs, and $15k worth of amps and processors. Everyone has their own comfort level as I see it. When I install a HTS for someone the first thing I ask is how much money they want to spend- then I try to find the absolute best components to meet that price point.

    15K that is a starter kit for most Audiophiles.

    When I was hunting for HTS for our current house, I was amazed on what people wanted to sell me, one place told me for the money, Mirage speakers was great, but didn't like how they sounded. I had a very high end business talk to me about Transmission Audio, I'd never heard them before, but once I figured the the guy was playing with me, I had a good laugh, Price for the speakers, well, if you have to ask you can't afford them, but was told a million for each speaker.. So are they great speakers? To someone, yes, not to me they are not.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,288
    I was patient and bought most of my HTS components when they were discounted ahead of newer models being released. My basement gaming system was really put together on the cheap, picking up an Energy 5.1 system for less than 50% of MSRP and using the speaker cables and HTR from my previous 6.1 system that I replaced when I upgraded my main system to 7.1.
    This is just my opinion, but I think once you spend much over $5,000-$7000(street price) on components-exclusive of installation-the Law of Diminishing Returns kicks in with a vengeance.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,495
    edited June 2015

    . . . I think once you spend much over $5,000-$7000(street price) on components-exclusive of installation-the Law of Diminishing Returns kicks in with a vengeance.

    Certainly true, and so long as you're the only one who knows, it's irrelevant. However, the "mine's bigger than yours" factor also kicks in with a veneance. Witness many of the posts here and elsewhere.

    Not that that's a bad thing; keeps the economy moving and all that.

    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,288

    . . . I think once you spend much over $5,000-$7000(street price) on components-exclusive of installation-the Law of Diminishing Returns kicks in with a vengeance.

    Certainly true, and so long as you're the only one who knows, it's irrelevant. However, the "mine's bigger than yours" factor also kicks in with a veneance. Witness many of the posts here and elsewhere.

    Not that that's a bad thing; keeps the economy moving and all that.

    Yes; Peter Aczel calls them the "Golden-Eared Tweako Cultists"- the folks who think that they can hear a difference between power cables and interconnects that cost upwards of $1K per foot...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Reminds me of that YouTube video where they gathered hard-core coffee aficionados to do a blind tasting. I thought that when they told the one guy he had picked McDonald's, he was going to commit ritual suicide right then and there.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,288

    Reminds me of that YouTube video where they gathered hard-core coffee aficionados to do a blind tasting. I thought that when they told the one guy he had picked McDonald's, he was going to commit ritual suicide right then and there.

    Funny you should mention that; there have been numerous double-blind tests conducted between different components and interconnects/cables- it seems that no one can hear a difference unless they know what they are listening to.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    edited June 2015
    Rockin' DefTech speakers, EMOTIVA pre/pro and dual Epik ( no longer in business) 18" subs. Rolled my own speaker cabling and swear by Monoprice interconnects. Can't say as i've heard anything to beat it so far. Half tempted to go the Dolby Atmos , but if it ain't broke, why fix it?
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,724
    Do you all follow the conventional rule of thumb or wisdom that says make your HT budget, then use 50% on speakers, 25% on power/processing, 15% on media/disk player(s), 10% on Cabling/wiring.

    That's what I've seen and read in multiple places, and I think it's good advice. The equation isn't so simple when a friend already has pretty good bookshelves, and a lame duck Sony receiver. He's like how can Sony be lame? I just say receivers are not Sony's bread and butter unless you have an ES model.

    I had him add a good old Energy 8" sub woofer I sold him for $100 plus $15 for the cable, plus 1/2 of shipping. Then I had him add new 12 ga. Blue Jeans speaker cables most recently, with banana plug ends to replace his 100 ga. wire strands (I use the plural loosely; it was horrible how little wire he was using, but I'm joking about the 100 gauge. Most likely it was 20 ga or so but he had about 20% of the strands connected in the end at best. Night and Day improvements. I think about $200 best spent! In this case, 10 to 15% on wiring was wrong given his existing already installed situation.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,288
    I use BJC for all my installations. Excellent stuff.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    I just used my older amp's and pre-amps, and added to it. Counterpoint Amp and Pre-Amp and a tweaked ADCOM amp, I had the CounterPoint equipment re-tubed.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I suppose there are people who have the skills of discernment in sound equipment equivalent to the skills of discernment practiced by sommeliers, and I suppose the same is true of cars---a highly experienced race driver probably hears and feels things we'd never even guess were there.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Today, to save some miles and money, I rented a car from Enterprise to drive from Cincinnati to Nashville.

    I asked for a full-size car and was presented with a new gas powered Jetta -- I assume it would be considered the base car. I have only a rough idea of how much this car costs. I have been given Nissan cars, Toyota cars, Jeeps and on and on as rentals. This was my first Jetta rental.

    Drove the thing at a steady 80MPH stopping south of Bowling Green for a bio break.

    Car's computer says 39.6MPG.

    Compared to most of the cars that pass as full size rental fleet offerings, this seems to be the great car I started on about when I was being critical of Toyotas. Now, it has no nav, no power seats, no heated seats and the sound system is strictly AM and FM -- and if it has blu-tooth, well, I can't figure out how to make it work. But the car is competent, no, no, VERY competent at the thing that a car must be competent at -- the driving experience. It is, at its price point, great.

    I would assume a stroll through the option list could make this car much more expensive and, yes, it would be "nicer" -- but how could it be anything else, starting with a great base car like this.

    This is the salmon I wish dear ol' mom would have introduced me to.

    My personal vehicles or my personal willingness to dump $X into a car have nothing to do with great vs good -- this Jetta should be purchased by other car companies, disassembled and examined and within reason imitated.

    If this car can be produced and marketed for what I assume would be considered a "cheap" MSRP by ELLPS mfgrs and customers, there ought to be no reason others -- including Toyota -- couldn't do it, too.

    You don't need to equate great with big bucks.

    DOH!

    Homer.

  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    You mostly thought it was great because it was cheap but still had a great feel to the drive.  Makes sense since you like german cars.  VW sales have not been that good as many people do not consider them great at all because repair records and crappy dealer experiences.  At that price point more cars are bought than rented(leased) and people are looking for low maintenance and repair and longevity.  They look at many of the Asian cars for that reason. 

    You seem to have a hard time looking at things from a different perspective than your own.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665

    I use BJC for all my installations. Excellent stuff.

    I've heard nothing but good about their stuff, too!
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • Sandman6472Sandman6472 Member Posts: 6,948
    As a family that recently bought an Audi and a VW, we are happy with them even though my VW has already had an issue and had to go into the shop. Going in, I knew this could happen so I wasn't too unhappy when they came and let me know they'd be sending me home in a loaner. Today, I tried to charge my cell in the two power plugs and nothing happened, tried multiple chargers and nothing worked so will have to stop over tomorrow and see what's up. Thinking it will be a blown fuse at this point and hope it is...if not, we'll see how they handle it. Must say this kind of issue never happened with our Toyota's, Honda or Hyundai's but again, I knew going in with any VW product that there might be some issues to deal with. And with both the A3 and Golf being first year models, things do happrn!

    The Sandman :)B)

    2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    m6user said:

    You mostly thought it was great because it was cheap but still had a great feel to the drive.  Makes sense since you like german cars.  VW sales have not been that good as many people do not consider them great at all because repair records and crappy dealer experiences.  At that price point more cars are bought than rented(leased) and people are looking for low maintenance and repair and longevity.  They look at many of the Asian cars for that reason. 

    You seem to have a hard time looking at things from a different perspective than your own.

    I do like German cars -- but I also liked my Acura TL, often comparing it favorably to an S4. Assuming you're correct regarding the "popularity" of VW for the reasons you cite (and I am taking your assertions as accurate), it is a shame. Since the cars' reliability and/or durability and the dealer experiences apparently suck, I can understand their waning sales. Yet, this Jetta is solid, the transmission is great and the steering is communicative. Now, in the course of 700 miles, assuming I have no reliability issues, my perception of the greatness of the car will probably remain unchanged.

    VW should be ashamed of itself if the reliability and dealer experience isn't corrected sooner rather than later.

    Speaking of perspectives, I also enjoyed our Infiniti -- kept it 39 months, and other than a new set of tires, the thing was as close to flawless (in terms of the driving experience, reliability and durability) as one would expect. I did test the Q50S, the Lexus 350 F-Sport (and even ordered one) -- so I can understand and support several non-German cars as great. My specific rant pertaining to Toyotas was just that, remarks pertaining to Toyota, not all non-German cars.

    I do test drive a lot of cars, and I rent a lot of cars -- the rental experiences typically allow me to drive hundreds of miles in a given example. The Toyotas typically and specifically are a huge disappointment -- which confuses me considering their apparent sales successes. Hondas, to name another Asian brand, on the other hand, do not suffer from this good enough approach. The Hyundai Genesis, and Kia Optoma too are examples of cars that certain seem to not be satisfied with a good enough approach.

    A few days ago when I started this "I'm disappointed in" Toyota thread, I did only mention Toyota and that still stands. The phrase, "I hate Toyotas" is simply my way, in this forum of supporting the notion that good is the enemy of great.

    The good news is, it certainly seems that a lot of folks are participating and voicing their opinions on this and other subjects, which, from my perspective is a good thing, what this "tool" (the Edmunds forum) is all about.

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,359
    @markcincinnati - here's what I don't get.  You have 2 what I would categorize as "pretty awesome cars," yet you rented a Jetta for a  700 mile road trip?  Even if you were to go over your lease miles by 700, that's what $175 at $.25 per mile.  You're most likely going to get another Audi, so they might wave the excess miles or the dealership which you've bought 29 of your Audis from will do something for you to make it right.

    DRIVE IT LIKE YOU LIVE

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  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 234,725
    nyccarguy said:

    @markcincinnati - here's what I don't get.  You have 2 what I would categorize as "pretty awesome cars," yet you rented a Jetta for a  700 mile road trip?  Even if you were to go over your lease miles by 700, that's what $175 at $.25 per mile.  You're most likely going to get another Audi, so they might wave the excess miles or the dealership which you've bought 29 of your Audis from will do something for you to make it right.

    DRIVE IT LIKE YOU LIVE

    Cheap rental for a road trip? I've done it quite a few times.. If I can get a car for $25/day or less and the mileage is significant, I'm all for it..

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  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,288
    I rented a Challenger and a Fiat 500 for a couple of trips to see how I liked them. Now granted, the Challenger wasn't an R/T with the STP, and the 500 wasn't an Abarth- but it still gave me a basic idea of what the enthusiast versions would be like...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,359

    I rented a Challenger and a Fiat 500 for a couple of trips to see how I liked them. Now granted, the Challenger wasn't an R/T with the STP, and the 500 wasn't an Abarth- but it still gave me a basic idea of what the enthusiast versions would be like...

    Gotcha. I never thought of that. In your case I can understand. You were able to rent cars you were interested in on the cheap. In your case it also makes sense because the cars in your stable have over 100K miles on them (no disrespect, I'm sure they could handle the road trip the way you maintain them), but you never know.

    @markcincinnati has 2, newer Audi S cars that are under factory warranty. Quite different from the Jetta he rented.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217

    I rented a Challenger and a Fiat 500 for a couple of trips to see how I liked them. Now granted, the Challenger wasn't an R/T with the STP, and the 500 wasn't an Abarth- but it still gave me a basic idea of what the enthusiast versions would be like...

    Last week I did a quick trip to New Jersey as a friend of mine had passed away. After a two hour flight delay and arriving at Newark Airport at 10:30pm and getting to National Car Rental pick up location at about 11:10pm, pickings were very slim, a couple of Jetta's, Chrysler 200c's and a lone 2015 Dodge Challenger in arrest me red, I took the Challenger, was very impressed on how the car drive, now if it had a Hemi, I'm sure I would have gotten a couple of tickets it in.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,381
    Flight, where was that picture taken? It looks familiar.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

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