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On the subject of Camry's, I have only rented two in the 5 yrs I was a road warrior, one was a fully loaded XLE V6, it had every bell and whistle that could be had in 2011, it was a nice car, drive well, but not that re-memorable. Ever since the runaway issue a couple of years ago, Camry sales have been down and I don't think Toyota has recovered from that.
Now Toyota is running ads proclaiming the "Bold, New Camry". Since doesn't look particularly new and has no outstanding performance characteristics I think they're making a mistake. These claims have little credibility
and even worse, they are aimed at the wrong market since I think Camry shoppers would prefer safe, sturdy and reliable to bold or new.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
3/4series 12,868 +17.9%
Cclass 7,413 +40.3%
ES 5,553 -11.6%
TLX 4,352
IS 4,345 +2.5%
LaCrosse 3,954 -15.5%
Q50 3,423 +16.5%
MKZ 3,296 -11.3%
A4 2,785 -10.8%
ATS 2,353 -5.8%
Q40 1,164 -31.3%
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Side note - been off this forums for awhile -but did just earn my 8 year badge - yeah! anyone talk of the new MB 450 Amg - $50k to get in and a real looker - watch out s4 and 340 x cars
http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/latest-reviews/2016-mercedes-benz-c450-amg-4matic-test-drive-review-article-1.2243979
With a smile on my face and malice toward none, this seems somewhat of an apology on behalf of Toyota. My point and question is why not build a great car at every price point. I do think the Toyota is probably a good car -- and, as someone says (not just someone but Voltaire, born in 1694) -- "good is the enemy of great."
I would agree with something here -- "95% of the buying public has no . . . need for an ELLPS." Their interest level is harder to ascertain, but, assuming you are correct that 95% have no interest, I would be made both sad and fearful. I assume you assume they -- the 95% -- have no interest because . . .um, they have never been exposed to greatness (at THAT particular price point)?
Let me give you an irrelevant comparison -- while growing up, my mother fixed this nasty-tasting "entree" she called salmon patties. They looked like a cross between a hamburger and what, today, I think of as a mostly-crab, crab-cake. The taste, after frying was, well, horrible. But, hey, it's Friday so well it was either fried smelt or salmon patties; so after a while I actually ate the salmon patties entirely. I don't think I ever liked them, but I did learn to tolerate them. Eventually, in a sentimental, not logical or rational, moment I was told I actually said (I deny this) "salmon patties are good." Perhaps, salmon patties are good compared to, er, hmm, DIRT!
Time and tide, time and tide -- and I eat (in college) at a nice restaurant and the special of the day is salmon. First off, when it comes, I barely recognize it, and then when I taste it, I know for sure "this sure as hell isn't salmon!" Salmon is great, I love salmon -- I had grown to accept canned salmon [allegedly] as good.
How much is an Avalon or a Camry? Don't answer that, the point is not how much it costs it's that for THAT much money, it ought to be possible to build a great car, not just a good one that has a lot of stuff for the money. Now, if the stuff is what actually makes it great -- and NOT the driving experience or its capabilities -- well, then I don't know what we're all talking about here. We COULD add navigation and blu-tooth to a Trabant I would assume, but that wouldn't make it even a good car, it would still be a bad car that just happen to have sat-nav.
I don't think everyone needs or wants or should need or want an ELLPS -- I do think we all deserve to know what real salmon tastes like, so to speak. These super popular ['good' car] brands, Toyota being the one I chose to exemplify my point, are just one of the contributors the great dumbing-down we're "enjoying" these days.
Mainstream cars (in my case Hondas) are good enough for 95% of US drivers. I have had fresh salmon - two Mercedes bought new - but Honda/Toyota/etc serve my purposes perfectly. We each should buy what fills our needs, and no one should belittle those choices. You were not doing that but I have seen others that do so. I would never buy an Audi because of the stories I have heard about long-term quality issues. But, I don't hate Audi. Just don't want one.
Your mileage may vary.
It's a bit like somebody lamenting all those factory-made suits - if everybody just went to a tailor, world would be so much better place, wouldn't it (we wouldn't have to look at cheap suits)? Never mind half of the population wouldn't be able to afford them, but hey, who cares - we would have beautiful suits for probably slightly lower price than today (a few more tailors competing).
There is no bread? Then let them eat cake.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
What or where or when did I suggest that I would compare a Rolls to a Honda. My point has been to start a conversation regarding greatness at a given price point -- any price point. Somehow, however, it seems that we're actually now saying that "good enough" is, hmm, good enough.
Do we now tell our children, their teachers, our leaders, etc, that it is "OK" to not go for great?
How could it belittle anyone to urge them to strive for "the best" (at every price point) -- I've not suggested that the customer who shops for a Chevy is any less entitled to the best (at that price point) than is the Rolls buyer (at that price point).
Everything made and done is not great -- I assume we all would agree to that. I am hoping to spark the conversation to perhaps contemplate that we simply shouldn't settle for good enough no matter how much or little we pay.
I just think that good enough or good has begat an erosion of what we'll accept -- hence the term dumbing-down. We, at times, seem complacent -- we accept good enough, we don't "demand" great.
Again and finally -- I keep saying "at every, at any . . .price point."
Good enough isn't.
BTW, I also think "great" should also include how it drives, but others seemingly disagree. I simply don't assume to have authority to know what great means for everybody. I just know what it means to me.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
And we would both be absolutely correct.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
Some people look at cars are appliances, and those are the people who look at a 20K Camry and call them great, they don't care about handling or acceleration, they are looking for a comfortable car that starts every time they get into and doesn't cost a lot of money to maintain.
When I was hunting for HTS for our current house, I was amazed on what people wanted to sell me, one place told me for the money, Mirage speakers was great, but didn't like how they sounded. I had a very high end business talk to me about Transmission Audio, I'd never heard them before, but once I figured the the guy was playing with me, I had a good laugh, Price for the speakers, well, if you have to ask you can't afford them, but was told a million for each speaker.. So are they great speakers? To someone, yes, not to me they are not.
This is just my opinion, but I think once you spend much over $5,000-$7000(street price) on components-exclusive of installation-the Law of Diminishing Returns kicks in with a vengeance.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
Not that that's a bad thing; keeps the economy moving and all that.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1508_bmw_335i_m_sport_vs_jaguar_xe_s_comparison/specs.html
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
That's what I've seen and read in multiple places, and I think it's good advice. The equation isn't so simple when a friend already has pretty good bookshelves, and a lame duck Sony receiver. He's like how can Sony be lame? I just say receivers are not Sony's bread and butter unless you have an ES model.
I had him add a good old Energy 8" sub woofer I sold him for $100 plus $15 for the cable, plus 1/2 of shipping. Then I had him add new 12 ga. Blue Jeans speaker cables most recently, with banana plug ends to replace his 100 ga. wire strands (I use the plural loosely; it was horrible how little wire he was using, but I'm joking about the 100 gauge. Most likely it was 20 ga or so but he had about 20% of the strands connected in the end at best. Night and Day improvements. I think about $200 best spent! In this case, 10 to 15% on wiring was wrong given his existing already installed situation.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
I asked for a full-size car and was presented with a new gas powered Jetta -- I assume it would be considered the base car. I have only a rough idea of how much this car costs. I have been given Nissan cars, Toyota cars, Jeeps and on and on as rentals. This was my first Jetta rental.
Drove the thing at a steady 80MPH stopping south of Bowling Green for a bio break.
Car's computer says 39.6MPG.
Compared to most of the cars that pass as full size rental fleet offerings, this seems to be the great car I started on about when I was being critical of Toyotas. Now, it has no nav, no power seats, no heated seats and the sound system is strictly AM and FM -- and if it has blu-tooth, well, I can't figure out how to make it work. But the car is competent, no, no, VERY competent at the thing that a car must be competent at -- the driving experience. It is, at its price point, great.
I would assume a stroll through the option list could make this car much more expensive and, yes, it would be "nicer" -- but how could it be anything else, starting with a great base car like this.
This is the salmon I wish dear ol' mom would have introduced me to.
My personal vehicles or my personal willingness to dump $X into a car have nothing to do with great vs good -- this Jetta should be purchased by other car companies, disassembled and examined and within reason imitated.
If this car can be produced and marketed for what I assume would be considered a "cheap" MSRP by ELLPS mfgrs and customers, there ought to be no reason others -- including Toyota -- couldn't do it, too.
You don't need to equate great with big bucks.
DOH!
Homer.
You seem to have a hard time looking at things from a different perspective than your own.
The Sandman
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
VW should be ashamed of itself if the reliability and dealer experience isn't corrected sooner rather than later.
Speaking of perspectives, I also enjoyed our Infiniti -- kept it 39 months, and other than a new set of tires, the thing was as close to flawless (in terms of the driving experience, reliability and durability) as one would expect. I did test the Q50S, the Lexus 350 F-Sport (and even ordered one) -- so I can understand and support several non-German cars as great. My specific rant pertaining to Toyotas was just that, remarks pertaining to Toyota, not all non-German cars.
I do test drive a lot of cars, and I rent a lot of cars -- the rental experiences typically allow me to drive hundreds of miles in a given example. The Toyotas typically and specifically are a huge disappointment -- which confuses me considering their apparent sales successes. Hondas, to name another Asian brand, on the other hand, do not suffer from this good enough approach. The Hyundai Genesis, and Kia Optoma too are examples of cars that certain seem to not be satisfied with a good enough approach.
A few days ago when I started this "I'm disappointed in" Toyota thread, I did only mention Toyota and that still stands. The phrase, "I hate Toyotas" is simply my way, in this forum of supporting the notion that good is the enemy of great.
The good news is, it certainly seems that a lot of folks are participating and voicing their opinions on this and other subjects, which, from my perspective is a good thing, what this "tool" (the Edmunds forum) is all about.
DRIVE IT LIKE YOU LIVE
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
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Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
@markcincinnati has 2, newer Audi S cars that are under factory warranty. Quite different from the Jetta he rented.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.