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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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I didn't get the tie in for the picture. On the VW TDI it might be too much, little or correct? OR it might be a one off, advertising, aka, FIRST certified check for that amount buys it (this specific one) !? What makes you think it is a lie?
Today while at the store, I noticed I parked by another Bluetec. When I came out, the driver of the other car was also loading the trunk - I gave him a nod and he noticed what I was driving. Guy looked to be about my age, which surprised me, as these cars are aimed at an older demographic. Some are buying diesel cars.
SLOW diesel news day ! Fueled the 03 Jetta TDI (541 miles) with 10.5 gal. I ran the A/C again . So the mpg is app the same as the other slow news day (51.52 mpg vs 50.9 mpg).
Local station prices : ULSD @ $4.07, PUG $4.07, RUG $3.87.
Here in "the south", the diesel spread is pretty noticeable because most of the Interstate places put RUG and diesel prices on their big billboards. The biggest spread was .90 cents a gallon at one spot in VA; there's lot of $3.89 here in Chattanooga, but there's lots of RUG for $3.17. Hard to find an ad for premium.
For sure taxations (various levels), (can) clouds the "essential issues."
So for example, a quick and dirty (without knowing the precise factors in backing out the various levels) is TN taxation gas $.398/diesel $.428 taxation vs CA taxation gas $.69. diesel $.795. (anyone can google any number of industrial/.gov state/fed fuel taxation tables. )
Just that (difference in state taxes) ALONE would drop CA ULSD to 3.70 to TN's 3.89. So, ... sans the so called "equalization/s," CA ULSD is actually CHEAPER than TN's (in this example MINUS - 19 cents) .
Just filled up the Bluetec - PUG at the Chevron was 3.99, diesel was 3.97. Now it's a no-brainer again. City mpg may not be much different, but I'll get 25% better on the highway without trying.
Diesel right now in No. California is ranging from $4.09 in rural areas to $4.79 near SF airport.
@fintail
What was your mpg?
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
A possible diesel convert. Not me friends. A good customer of mine has a 2005 V6 Cayenne with close to 190K miles. It's starting to give him some grief & he's been looking for an excuse to buy a new car for the last year or so. Anyway, he found a CPO 2013 Cayenne Diesel that's an ex-service loaner with 10K miles on it. As of this AM we were texting back & forth and he said he was most likely going to pull the trigger today or tomorrow.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Assuming it was not abused in any way, this thing is not even broken in. In effect, the dealership used it as a real life advertising tool and vehicle. If it sold one or two other Cayennes or even got someone to sell their current Porsche to buy any other new Porsche, I am sure it was a great use of the advertising budget. (good use of depreciation) I am sure it has all the bells and whistles and probably more. The Cayenne can post slightly higher (than VW Touareg TDI) handling (g force/skidpad per 14 C&D TDI shoot out) numbers (.94 g/.85 g).
Now whether one can tell, want, need, have to have, push constantly @ or near .95g (.85g just will NOT do) and/or willing to pay for the differences (+app 15,000 more over VW T TDI), can be other stories. Either can literally handle like sports cars. It has get UP and WENT. 29 mpg H EPA, ....gravy. I have posted from time to time what I get in two lane mountain driving, ZERO to 7,427 ft. dot.ca.gov/research/its/cctv/d03/Echo_Summit_50.htm and return. Much higher than that and in the USA, you probably live in another most favorite MTN area: Rocky Mountains.
I don't calculate mpg per fill up (I also like to fill it up by the time it is at 1/4 at the latest), but overall, mpg on the car has been about 30 since I got it - dragged down by the commuting grind, as 40 is easily attained on highway drives.
About the Cayenne - maybe the engine has life in it, but I'd wager the electricals aren't just broken in, but broken. That thing would make many run in fear, myself included. On another forum I saw someone call the period of roughly 1999-2007 "new malaise" when it comes to German cars - lots of issues during the era. The diesel engined cars of that time might be the best bets, many German cars of that era I wouldn't want for free.
The diesel engined cars of that time might be the best bets, many German cars of that era I wouldn't want for free.
I remember back around 2007 you advised me not to take a Mercedes S600 V12 as a trade for my MB Cruiser RV. I am sure glad I heeded that advice. For one thing by waiting I got what I wanted from a cash buyer. I know that boat would be killing me with repairs. Not to mention cluttering my garage.
Finally saw some decent prices at a nearby Exxon here in 'nooga. Diesel was $3.69 and Premium was $3.76.
That's one I wouldn't want for free, especially if an 01-02 model. Imagine something like your Lexus, but literally 10x more complex. I know an indy mechanic who literally refuses to work on them, as the bills spiral out of control. I have to imagine a 190K mile Cayenne would be just as fun.
If memory serves it was a 2002. Very long car, bigger than our Lexus LS400. I think 190k miles is more than enough miles to get rid of a car, if it is still worth much. Buying a Cayenne TDI with only 10k miles could be a good deal. Though I am not drawn in by the looks of the Cayenne. A neighbor has one that does little for me. If I was going to buy a Porsche it would be a Carrera. We also have a Panamera I see a lot of. That to me is a pretty car.
Oh I misunderstood ruking - he meant the diesel wasn't broken in, not the miled up car. Oops. That's right, too. At a little over a year and a little under 10K miles, my car still feels pretty new.
There's a Panamera diesel, but I don't think it is offered here. I don't mind the Cayenne - nicer looking than the first one, but maybe because of where I live, it says "entitled housewife" a little more than I'd like.
I don't mind the Cayenne - nicer looking than the first one, but maybe because of where I live, it says "entitled housewife" a little more than I'd like.
I see the Cayenne as saying we can afford better than a Lexus RX. I don't think most people consider the Touareg TDI a luxury SUV. My buddy gives me a bad time for not getting a GMC Terrain like he has. I told him when GM brings out a diesel SUV I will give them a shot. He is like most people that don't have a clue about the advantages of diesel. Though he does like riding in mine.
I was having trouble following your logic, but given the correction, we are as right as (hopeful) rain.
But I think the real nexus, lesson here is one should be a tad more careful as QUICKER mark to market (less cycle time) vehicles have had less time to run the reliability and durability "gauntlet". The "CUV" by VW has run the various gauntlets in different iterations:, aka, VW Touareg, Audi's Q5, Q7, Porsche Cayenne. When you put it together with the (well tested also) 3.0 L TDI, killer app.
GM also has resurrected an old Cadillac platform in the 14 Impala. Seems another no brainer for their 3.0 L or even V8 TDI.
An interesting observation by the owner/tech that does (my) CA "smog only", who is hardly a diesel fan (hates diesels), said that in all his contacts in the auto industry the diesel repair folks say the most likely thing and not much else to fail are glow plugs/wires and or modules. So a common but not necessary repair is to do ALL wires and plugs @ once.
I think a GX is for one who thinks the Faberge Egg (thanks lemko!) isn't good enough, and the LX another step up. I think the Cayenne attracts a different demographic - maybe more daring or more showy. Average Lexus soft roader driver would probably cringe at the thought of filling up with diesel, where a Cayenne driver might stomach it. Funny thing, as I am pretty sure the Toyota equivalents to those fancier Lexus models exist as diesels in other markets.
It looks like Toyoto offers the RAV4 and Land Cruiser in the UK. RAV4 has several diesel options and only one gas. Land Cruiser only diesel models. The Highlander and 4Runner not even offered. The only Lexus is the RX hybrid. The GX is a rarity around here. Not many RX, more in the city where they belong.
BMW X5 is probably top choice. A lot of wealthy Indians and they like the BMW.
..."BMW X5 is probably top choice. A lot of wealthy Indians and they like the BMW."...
content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/06/1-millionth-american-made-x5-rolls-off-sc-production-line/1
Would I swag @ least some of these folks (10,000+) in the American en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_US_Manufacturing_Company located X5 (other models also) BMW plant are glad for the following?
They all belong in the city, or in the mcmansion tracts. GX is also the Toyota Prado, which is exists as a diesel. LX is a Landcruiser, which exists as a diesel. Maybe the Lexus brand is too clean and beige for diesel.
I've seen a couple X5 diesels in the past couple days.
..."They all belong in the city, or in the mcmansion tracts. "...
Well, I think you would agree, they would be harder to find in mc ghetto tracts, or ole mc a dee's farms. Eieio.
In NYC (Bronx - Outer Borough)
RUG: $3.799/gal
PUG: $4.079/gal
ULSD: $4.499/gal
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
You need to get out of there before the new Mayor really sticks it to ya. Even with higher tax on diesel it is less than RUG here in San Diego.
Shell RUG $4.11
Shell ULSD $3.87
http://www.sandiegogasprices.com/Shell_Gas_Stations/Encinitas/24047/index.aspx
Someone was asking me advice about buying a Jetta TDI--this was an older person who makes only very short trips each day---so I advised her against it for that reason. I don't think short trips without proper warm-up do a diesel engine very much good.
I would agree. I think diesels are better for long road trips, while hybrids do better when the driving is mostly in town.
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2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige
Diesels need longer warm-up, most definitely. This might be one reason why we only see a handful of diesel hybrids--the two are somewhat at odds with each other.
I'd be a perfect diesel candidate, because I'm rippin' 300-500 miles a week. I use my bicycle in the city for 80% of what I do there
And I'm not, since 80% of my driving is in stop-and-go traffic whilst delivering pizzas.
My wife, OTOH, might be a good candidate since she does more open road driving and would enjoy the torque. However, there isn't yet a small crossover with diesel available in the US.
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Well maybe those pizzas could pre-heat your engine.
It's not like I don't want a diesel .. I'm very interested in the VW GTD, should it ever make it to the US. Hatchback, 185HP, scads of torque, figure high 20's in town and around 40 hwy, plus the handling of a GTI.
Hmmm, that sounds just like the Mazda 3 2.5 SkyActiv.
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@gagrice
Amazing that Diesel is less than RUG out there. You've got nicer weather too
. Unfortunately, getting out of here isn't an option. I work for my family's 114 year old plumbing supply business. I'm 4th generation. Besides, I can't leave the Yankees!
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Well, here, here, for the (small) family business !! It has been quite a while since I drove around in NYC (when I lived upstate) !!
The other hand clapping is that the same conditions do not do the gasser much good either. But then if it is only for "convenience" (very low mileage) , the less and least one spends for this convenience, the better. So for example, since insurance is the # 2 highest operating expense (normally) , get the year and the brand and model that costs the very least to insure.
Now to me the real issue is that most folks do not run 10,000 to 20,000 miles OCI 's, do UOA's and and do A/B comparisons. The fact of the matter is gassers use even more fuel @ stop and go conditions. RUG/PUG (30 ppm) is (standard to standard) 2 x DIRTIER than ULSD (15 ppm) The two unseen issues are RUG/PUG can be up to 90 ppm sulfur but ULSD is nominally delivered @ 5 to 10 ppm) So the range can be 2 x to 18 x dirtier. So naturally, which oil would tend to be dirtier? Now the system tolerates and approves dirtier emissions from 95% of gassers. On the other hand the 5% of cleaner diesels take the vilification for the pollution !!! So why emit less pollution and burn even LESS fuel when nobody really cares????
dictionary (oil change intervals, used oil analysis)
WAY off the diesel topic, but my 20/18 year old Toyota Landcruisers (gassers) tests @ the SMOG ONLY station (specially designed to get RID of old cars) test the SAME as when NEW !!!! Even wilder is I have gone from 30,000 miles MAJOR TUNE UPS to 60,000 miles MAJOR TUNE UP's !!!!! ???? I have been over amping for too many miles !? 250,000 miles/190,000 miles. 20,000 miles OCI's are run. FRAM oil filter.
That's true. Why pay for a diesel when you don't reap any of the benefits?
Amazing that Diesel is less than RUG out there. You've got nicer weather too
. Unfortunately, getting out of here isn't an option. I work for my family's 114 year old plumbing supply business. I'm 4th generation. Besides, I can't leave the Yankees!
My sister lives in CA and she is a HUGE Yankees fan. I do understand being where your job is. At least you have some options close by with states to reside in.
The mcghetto tracts are where old Escalades go - no diesels on those
I don't know if any real farmers are much into Lexus either, gentleman farmers maybe. I remember when I was a kid in the 80s, and lived in an area with many large ranches and working family farms, the affluent wives wanted one of two things - a conversion van, or a MB 300SD.
@ruking
Thanks for the props. My job is the farthest thing from easy. I make an honest living. I've got job security too.
@gagrice
I live in Connecticut which is one of the neighboring states you speak of. My property taxes are very reasonable compared to Westchester County, NY which we border. We've got high diesel prices though;)
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
The over all policies and trends have been to lessen the # folks who own and operate ranches and farms.
..."There are over 313,000,000 people living in the United States. Of that population, less than 1% claim farming as an occupation (and about 2% actually live on farms). In 2007, only 45% of farmers claimed farming as their principal occupation and a similar number of farmers claiming some other principal occupation. The number of farms in the U.S. stands at about 2.2 million."...
http://www.epa.gov/oecaagct/ag101/demographics.html
So in the 30 years since you lived in that area, I am sure there are a whole lot less folks ranching and farming. According to the EPA.gov AG 101, there a lot more "part time farmers."
Of course, one area where "urban" farming" is growing is metropolitan Detroit.
Slow news diesel day.
Local station listings: RUG @ $3.89, PUG @ $3.99, ULSD @ $4.09.
03/09 Jetta TDI took on a little more than half a tank for 51.7 mpg/40.1 mpg respectively.
VW is advertising a $1000 pre-paid fuel card, with purchase of a Jetta TDI. I think the base TDI is only $23,500, so that may be the diesel steal of the year! It does have a solid rear axle though, and is a 6 speed manual, but you still get heated seats, steering wheel controls, power windows locks, alloys, etc. Also, the people who think diesels aren't worth it because the fuel costs $.50 a gallon more per gallon fail to mention all the credit cards with gas discounts/cash back, and my local grocery store chain (Giant) has an excellent points program in conjunction with Shell.
They give you ten cents off a gallon per every $100 dollars spent, plus there are always bonus points if you buy certain items. I never have less than 400 points, as our whole family share the points.
So we had 725 points, and I paid $2.65 a gallon Friday. Saved me $12.60. So, if diesel costs $.50 more per gallon, I can offset it. Also, I have a Shell card with 2% cash back.
As a bonus, The Jetta has a really big back seat for a compact, and I can barely tell the difference between the Jetta and the Passat looks wise, so it would be a really good choice for folks like me with three kids to put through college.
-Chris
arghhh...gas prices are killing me....$4.21 for premium or diesel. I always know when things are bad when I can squeeze $50 into a MINI's tiny gas tank.
Not all "dumbing down" is necessarily BAD. Especially if it is not necessarily "diesel" related and it is not a big deal to targeted markets. The Jetta was "scaled back" to make room for the Passat. Yet it actually sold slightly more year over year from the more higher priced and higher cost Jetta. It can be "good" in that it is a multiple effect solution to issues. In VW's own concepts, the changes to the Jetta and Passat were made to appeal to American market sensibilities.
Here is another one example to add to your cited solid axle vs NON solid axle (aka independent rear axle) suspension TMI and non diesel related: Civic rear brake SHOES (rather than rear disc brakes.) It is a tad off topic, so I will explain if folks are interested.
On the other hand, one can buy a 3.0, L 8 speed TDI from 45k + to 95K +. Interestingly enough, the higher priced ones sell MORE @ volume, % and price than the lower priced ones. (there is a lot more to this also) So a platitude would be GO FIGURE !! ?? But the truth is more like: something for some segments of the markets.
@cski, the affinity card discounts work for both gas and diesel, so the price differential will still be there.
Cruising on I-75 near Cincinnati at the moment and the RUG - diesel differential is pretty small around here. Around 30 cents at some stations, so I assume diesel is on a par or cheaper than premium.
(And I'm not buying the argument that diesel should be compared to premium that someone recently mentioned - a base gas Jetta doesn't require premium).
I am not sure why this happened. Local station PUG up from $3.99 to 4.09. ULSD still @ $4.09.
I saw this article, which might be unrelated to diesel. However it might be tied in for the so called Gen Y (20ish 30ish generation.) ..."Sticker Shock Could Be Why..."
forbes.com/sites/jimhenry/2014/03/31/sticker-shock-could-be-why-gen-y-is-supposedly-out-of-love-with-cars/?partner=yahootix
Of course, $4.00 RUG prices might be another disincentive.
http://www.mercurynews.com/bay-area-news/ci_25462076/gas-hits-4-gallon-california-once-again
I bet it's not just the purchase price; after all, you can get a good used car for a lot less than a new one. But gas prices seem high (even though they really aren't historically) and repair and maintenance costs are high (even though cars are way more reliable than in the good old days).
Seems like there's still something non-economic missing. Like, "why bother?"
That really might be it. I was raised (since I literally can remember) with the concept and reality of cars (the whole transportation and logistic chain in a broader reality, "freedom and the whole mystic of the open road, etc). I even feel that way !!
IRS tax law has LONG dictated so called commute costs are NOT deductible.
In a very real sense, there are only 2 ways to cost effectively own a car: 1. used in a business where the business covers as a minimum the expenses or 2. one is able to get the IRS business mileage (2014 is @ 56 cents per mile. So for example a 15,000 miles commute posts a $8,400 number ) 3. Cost for transportation PRE tax monies NOT after tax.
http://www.irs.gov/2014-Standard-Mileage-Rates-for-Business,-Medical-and-Moving-Announced
The fourth way can be coupled/delinked from cars and that is drawing ones or a salary for commute time. So for example drawing one salary, the so called" GOOGLE bus commute" one (aka up to 45 people) can be WIFI'ed the whole time (say 45 min to 1.5 hours each way) and presumably doing ones' work while on the bus commuting. So using an 8 hour business day (who the hell works only 8 hours anymore anyway?) for app 2,080 hours a year , a 1.5 hour one way commute is app 38% of a full YEARS work hours !!! Man hour wise a fully loaded "Goggle commute bus represents 35,640 MAN HOURS per year of lossed/found productivity.
Drawing A salary might be an arranged dollar amount per hour getting to work.
Local station prices (pre all discounts)
RUG $3.75
PUG $3.95
ULSD $ 3.85
Still in Port Huron and just filled up for the trip home tomorrow. The "cheap" RUG is $3.62 and diesel is $4.09. Down closer to Detroit this morning fuel is running about a dime cheaper.
One reason Port Huron is higher is because lots of Canadians come over the bridge to shop and buy gas so they stick it to them (or so the story goes - it kind of falls apart since Detroit has bridges to Canada too). Canadians are still saving well over a buck a gallon by coming over here.