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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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Interesting thinking. I have to agree with you. Everything is based on passing smog tests. We have thousands of big gas and diesel PU trucks on our streets with straight pipes cleaning out the soot on a regular basis. I have never heard of a road check stopping and testing trucks for emissions. Only every two years the state of CA forces you to bring in your vehicle to pass their test. It makes no difference if you pulled all the smog stuff off when you left the smog station and stashed it in the garage for two years.
Why pick on diesel cars only ?
VW diesels were getting popular with the average buyers who could not afford the BMW , MB diesels .
And the mileage the Jetta /Passat TDI were getting in the real world were a threat to the Priuses of this country .
VW---guilty as charged and caught red-handed. They deflated the football.
It's a core competency on this board (and several others, for that matter).
The punishment was invalidated in FEDERAL Court! ("football gate" for those who like to be confused)
For the record, OJ was guilty! But equally as obvious, that wasn't my call to make!
What other automakers did University of WV test on the road for NOx, or CO or CO2 etc? Remember the guise was to see how VW got such a clean bill of health. I would say it will be open season on all automakers very soon. Gassers are already shown in the EU to be cheating. EV and Hybrid sales are stale and the gubmint does not like that. Looks like the auto industry may be making the legal profession the direction to go.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/11/03/vw-emissions-irregularities-gas-mileage-fuel-economy/75101432/
PLEASE NO POLITICS that aren't relevant to automobiles! Thank you.
It was not me that politicized and weaponized EPA /CARB!
Having said that, they just today announced disapproval of the Keystone XL pipeline after seven years! The good news being one can resubmit the application (for final disapproval in 7 more years) ? IF the US trade unions don't know which side the bread is buttered on , their loss!
The smartest thing that Trans Canadian can do is to run the pipelines (in CN) west to DEEP water ports in BC and sell directly to any world customer directly. It would really be ironic if y in the future, the US wanted to connect to their E/W pipeline!
Here's an interesting discussion from the Int'l Business Times that discusses the EPA involvement
Is the EPA Partly To Blame?
I think the points in the article are well taken.
Too funny ! "Chicken Littles" I can't even make this stuff up!
More realistically, I sure wish I caught that minus- 150 point (drop) ! That would translate to 42 MB GLK 250BT's! (1 instead of several )
It is common to build for the test - that's why the Insurance Institute keeps changing their crash tests around. Helps keep the engineers honest.
And pray tell, now that VW has admitted to the world that they cheated, how would they be able to deny that in court? They've already moved beyond the conviction phase and we're in the penalty phase now.
(A couple of posts personally attacking other members have been removed. If you can't argue without name-calling, you need to find a different forum).
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/06/vw-tdi-goodwill-program-report/
How does this affect YOUR resale values??? Takata.....mini grenade?
..." following an announcement from the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which announced up to $200 million in penalties against Takata and criticised the Tokyo-based firm over a years-long deception over the safety of its airbags."...
http://news.yahoo.com/nissan-dumps-takata-inflators-honda-toyota-053203690.html#of
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Still, Tyson Slocum, director of the energy program at consumer advocacy group Public Citizen, said it’s unfair “to claim the EPA is responsible for a very sophisticated deception.”
So the EPA are not technically able to test for the standards they set? Is that what they are saying? My suggestion would be for the EPA to hire an unbiased entity like Edmunds to do the on road tests of the various models they buy and review. They could rent or purchase the test equipment needed for on road testing. This would remove it from the political realm to the automotive industry.
@houdini1, re "I've never seen software defined as a device."
Wiki says a defeat device is "any apparatus that unduly reduces the effectiveness of emissions control systems under conditions a vehicle may reasonably be expected to experience."
Your computer software won't do squat unless you move a mouse or hit the keyboard or swipe the screen. My guess is that the VWs sensors triggered the software to run the cheat code and that action falls under the definition.
And yeah, surprised that Takata hasn't gone banko. They seem to be way more toast than VW.
It probably is. However they probably do not buy new vehicles of various types to review. Edmunds & CR along with other groups buy and test cars, suvs and trucks. Might as well pay them a bit to test emissions with their normal testing. Like how much NOx will a vehicle put out in a 0-60 MPH run? Bet they all push the limits on those runs.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/do-inexpensive-performance-meters-work-feature
I'm sure emissions measuring is a little more specific, & more expensive.
This whole emission thingy is a left wing , nimby , greenie weeny sponsored boondoggle to promote the flagging sales of EV and Hybrids., at great costs to the consumers.
Instead of paying $25 k for cars , they want all of us to spend $35-40 k for the exotic EV cars.
LA, then and now:
However, it seems to work every time it's tried.
There appear to be more of them than us. I'm old. I care much less than I used to, but I still watch the freak parade go by (credit to Imus).
(The "first" one, not the one G.H.W. Bush signed in 1990. Via jordanmfriedman.wordpress.com)
Couple of real left wingers LOL.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Neither is it ok to use it to promote the expensive EV and hybrid vehicles at the expense of diesels.
Clinton and Bush did not dream that their legislation would be manipulated to benefit the EV lobby by unfair means .
U.S. taxpayers duped into shelling out $51 million in green subsidies for 'clean' VW vehicles (LA Times)
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Diesel is subsidized in India only for the agricultural sector and gasoline is also highly expensive.
Ninety seven percent of cars in USA are gasoline and they emit greenhouse gases causing global warming.
Three percent of cars in USA are diesel and they cause air pollution in LA LA Land and asthma !!!!
The current crop of political candidates on both sides makes Nixon look like Leon Trotsky.
I feel bad for modern greenies who are stuck with VW cheatermobiles. They are embarassed to drive their cars and were so very misguided by the lying liar pro-diesel VW/etc crowd.
ruking1, what is your evidence/analysis that USA emission standards are based on junk science? I do believe that some USA standards may have dropped too much too fast and that CARB is very annoying. But it's fun to be able to breathe in US cities, and it seems like americans preference for gas cars is why we can breathe clean air here. The Euro and Asia countries have miscalculated horribly about diesels, and the residents are paying the price with lung disease.
Count me as a contrarian greenie compared with mainstream greenies.
I prefer the OGs.
The Original Greenies: Richard M. Nixon and the Green Party from the 1980s.
cardude, as for the area 51 secret heavy-water hydrogen car research, that's an old joke. really good secret there, we've only heard that nonsense secret about 1000 times over 50 years.
Can we turn Dr. Henry Lee loose on the VW cheating cheaterism scandal?
If the urea tank don't fit, you must acquit?
btw, if anyone wants to see software referred to as a device, there are thousands of software patents available for your reading pleasure online.
They even got an Alien spaceship there . They used it in the movie "Independence Day "
This is the price you have to pay when you tax the gasoline at 200% and then expect citizens to use gasoline for their cars.
Remove this extortionate tax on gasoline and diesel consumption will fall.
You don't need an Einstein to deduce this logic .
No less a democrat ( moneyman) then Warren Buffett, (what he now 85 years old?) says that that EV/hybrid and the emphasis on the solar/wind for electrical generation, only makes sense with (MASSIVE) tax credits, write offs, special rulings, government force etc., etc., & crony capitalism !
Of course in the meantime, shipping COAL and providing the mobile oil pipeline (with all the above advantages) are not bad bitneses to be in!
Aren't we all now glad the Keystone Pipeline got its disapproval after 7 years or more?
But I am not convinced that diesel is the cause or was the cause for all that smog in Los Angeles and China when the number of diesels cars were a very miniscule fraction of the number of gasser cars. In Europe diesel has been rampantly promoted because gasoline has been taxed almost 200% of the refining costs.So Europeans wanted higher mileage cars then gasoline cars to save money at the pump
Diesel has been made a scapegoat by the EV/Hybrid lobby and the leftist crusaders.
I would buy TDI any day if they sell it again without neutering its perpormance. I don't beleive in the fake research by the leftists just like the fake research on the global warming by the communists in Oxford/Cambridge University.
We need to find out who are the backers of John German of the ICCT who tested the VWs at WV University.
Follow the money trail and it will lead to the EV/Hybrid lobby
I'm sure the next 1.5 to 7.0 earthquake will be blamed on VW & ULSD use.
On a slow diesel day note , my goal for the 2009 VW Jetta TDI: another 180,000 miles after gulag/ communist reeducation camp procedures or app 310,000 miles. As long as it passes current CARB biannual smog inspections (the strictest in the US , if not the world) , it's good to go! So even if I get ZERO $$for it, the cpmd : depreciation will be a tad under 6.5 cents. Lol, the IRS could offer me another tax CREDIT for the sale of the 2009 VW TDI!
If I got adjusted market value for the 2003 Jetta TDI, it would be at six cents .Yup life is cruel!
If Toyota has been the subject of the scandal, could one argue that the "diesel lobby" was the cause of that? I don't think so.
Moreover, if you think about it, the gasoline engine and diesel engine are actually allies and children of the same parent, and the and the EV and hybrid market are, logically, a threat to both of them. To consumers, diesel engines are an old technology. That is and has always been their problem when trying to compete with cars of the future. Most consumers see them as just an odd form of gasoline engine similar say to a Rotary engine or Miller cycle engine. The latter two didn't make much headway either in the market.
By the way unless EV cars run on electrified tram lines or tram wires , they will only be good for the local city commute. Now don't tell me about Tesla cars. Everyone is not Elon Musk or Bill Gates or Warren Buffet to afford one or more for their family.
Diesels will come back with a vengeance, Mr Shiftright and I will be here to tell you "I told you "
And something I like:
Both forbidden fruit in Murka. But if I want an 8000lb V10 SUV, that's OK.
Diesel diesel everywhere here in Germany, and I am not aware of any concrete data showing Germans have more "lung disease" than Americans.
Luckily MB diesel people are old school diehards and probably aren't paying much attention to the scandal, maybe those will survive.
What gets me most is the greenie weenies who turn a blind eye to the offshoring of pollution, while lecturing others about energy use. Then again, there's a demographic out there long known for hypocrisy and lack of self-awareness.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
As for the entire diesel car market to fold up, yeah, that might be a bit hysterical, but not out of the realm of possibility. I've lived long enough to see entire segments of the auto/motorcycle market go POOF! in a real hurry.
the idea of 'anti-diesel" lobbies make no sense to me, because most automakers build hybrids, diesels and electrics--so they can't be funding this mysterious lobby.
As for environmental groups, it's not their job to "clean up" anything. Their job is to raise awareness and to fight political and corporate corruption. Cleaning up is the job of the governments around the globe. I think most Americans completely missed what the Keystone fight was all about.
If therefore, one could make a case that some so-called greenie lobby brought down VW, well then, job well done in that case. No supporter of diesel cars would want that level of corporate corruption representing their case for cleaner diesels becoming a success in the USA.
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Because the U.S. market is very important to them and they want to get it right the first time. Mazda recently stated that the VW diesel fiasco has not affected their plans for a U.S. diesel.
My take is that they are having trouble with the trade off between meeting EPA standards and retaining their reputation of being a drivers car. Zoom, Zoom.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The gas hybrid take rate (app 2 to 2.5%) does NOT match your narrative! EV's take rate is essentially not measurable, despite a minimum of 15 year plus ramp up time frame. Also CA state has more than once issued "King Canute" policy dictates of EV/gas hybrids to each be 15% of CA yearly sales! Bottom line both EV/gas hybrid PVF GROWTH rates are exceeded by diesels PVF "DEATH rate" @ 3 to 5% !!
WSJ editors are a fool to write TDIs off .