Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

flightnurse

graphicguy said:

Personally, I like Bob Lutz. His Book...CAR GUYS VS BEAN COUNTERS is probably one of the top 10 business books I've ever read. Lessons there for other companies outside the auto industry. I tend to read his columns and listen to his interviews.

He's an ego maniac, without a doubt. And, sometimes I scratch my head at some of what he says. But, I think he's 83 now. And, as such, most people I know that are entering or are in that age range pretty much don't care what others think. So, they say whatever pops in their head.

I'll forgive some of that based on giving due respect. Overall, he's a pretty bright guy.

He sort of painted his time at GM as him against the big car establishment. Not sure how much is true and how much is bluster. But, he got the company to take chances (i.e. "new" GTO, Solstice and Sky....too bad they were products of failed divisions). He derided the Aztec. He tried to move GM. Wasn't entirely successful, but is willing to admit he wasn't, too.

Colleague bought a new IS 350 F Sport. I've always liked those. I test drove one a year or so ago. If anything, I like them more after seeing his (darkish grey with red leather interior). Hard to fault the build of it....probably the best I've seen. Still, a little cramped. Maybe that's because I've been used to driving cars a bit bigger than the IS. Seats are wonderful. Just a very, very nice car that goes well, drives well, and is built extremely well. His MSRP sticker said $49K....quite loaded up. He said they discounted his by about $2,500. Pretty good value for $46.5K. Hard to say that about a Lexus.

GC, Lutz was also Rogers Smiths Yes man, and we all know what Roger Smith did GM...

The IS cars are smaller then their competitor which is a negative for me.

When it comes to Business read, my top read is NUTZ, by Herb Keller.

markcincinnati

8 Years? Really?

Check out this headline: "Knowledge Doubling Every 12 Months, Soon to be Every 12 Hours"!

While you're at it, check out any number of sources on the subject line "Moore's law": The observation that the number of transistors in a dense integrated circuit has doubled approximately every two years.

"Buckminster Fuller created the “Knowledge Doubling Curve”; he noticed that until 1900 human knowledge doubled approximately every century. By the end of World War II knowledge was doubling every 25 years. Today things are not as simple as different types of knowledge have different rates of growth. For example, nanotechnology knowledge is doubling every two years and clinical knowledge every 18 months. But on average human knowledge is doubling every 13 months. According to IBM, the build out of the “internet of things” will lead to the doubling of knowledge every 12 hours."

OK, so where oh where is this going?

This is going to the subject of why the refresh cycles of cars (German ones at least) seems to be (especially for Audi and BMW) 8 years.

Sure there are "mid-cycle" refreshes, but often what happens is some minor styling tweaks, perhaps an MPG increase and certainly an increase in "content" -- but, often content increases annually (sometimes for a bump in price) anyway, or at least there is a rejiggering of option package features.

What if Apple came out with a truly new phone once every 8 years? What if Lenovo or Dell only coughed up a new PC or server even as long as every 4 years? There are numerous other examples across many products and brands that would literally just drop dead if they didn't substantially change (one likes to think enhance and improve) their products much more frequently than 8 or 4 or even 2 years.

Given current technology advancements, check that, given the speed (and frequency) of technology advancements how is it that several significant car manufacturers only really offer more than evolutionary changes every 8-years?

And while incremental changes continue in years 2,3,4,5,6,7 and 8, it is -- as far as I can tell -- literally impossible to upgrade your year 2 version with year 6 features, for any realistic sum of money (and in some cases it is less money to replace your 5 year old BMW with a new one than even dream of [analogy] pulling out the old SIMM chip and replacing it with a new one.)

So much of our cars DNA is based on software and a circuit board, why not allow the customer who wants to pony up the funds to upgrade his/her car's "infotainment" system for the one found in a newer version of his A4 or 5 series?

Is the only reason to not support an upgrade path the desire to sell new cars? Why can you keep your 20 year old aircraft current with the latest and greatest avionics, but your can't upgrade your 2 year old car's 3G wi-fi to 4G LTE for love nor money?

And the refresh cycle at 8-years? Really? Why does it take 8 years between "versions" of these cars? That time frame seems to me to be based on the past, not the currently reality.

I think it is time for the refresh cycle to be shortened -- I'd say, based on where things stand today, cutting the cycle in half would pretty much be a catch up move, not a pull ahead move.

The days of rendering umpteen versions of a new design in clay, destroying them and doing it all over again, are inefficient -- so much so that if anyone is actually still doing this, it would have to be almost literally ineffective.

I've seen some very impressive 3D-printing demonstrations that would seem to eliminate such by-gone days' practices -- the model upgrade can be dreamed up, coded and the printer turned on; model change costs can be slashed as can the time from thought to manufacture to market. No way 8-years is required to recoup the development costs.

Computer controlled machines can be changed to produce new body stampings, etc and every day it is not impossible to believe some engineer somewhere has figured out yet another tweak to improve both power and MPG out of the internal combustion engine -- to say nothing of alternative power-trains.

So, today's car is part mechanical, part computational, part software, part hardware -- I've kept my iPhone current, and so far each upgrade has been a real improvement. This technology is in our cars and it should be similarly updatable (the time frame, the cycle) and notable improvements should be regular and frequent -- not for free, mind you, but this 8-year cycle between serious product upgrades and updates is a practice that needs to be abandoned as soon as possible.

tlong

Cars are over 100 years into their evolution and other than electronics, don't evolve at the same pace.

Smart phones are like 8 years old (if we count the iPhone as the first "modern" smartphone; a bit longer if you count earlier "windows mobile" phones). So of course the pace of evolution is much faster.

Auto volumes are also a lot lower. So it's too expensive to retool every year - unless you want to pay triple the cost. And a car represents a much higher fraction of the average owner's income, so it is not going to be replaced at the same pace as your phone.

Regarding software and automakers, this is a very new area for them. They are not that experienced in software at the consumer level. Recent security exploits show how far the automakers need to go to get to the same level of sophistication that Apple or Microsoft are at for their operating systems.

markcincinnati

Opportunity Lost

My suggestion was for a cycle of ~4-years, not 1. Also, the experience of driving the automobile is, as I noted, largely based on software and circuit boards. Engine bays can almost certainly house either the tried and true and tired 3.7L (Infiniti, e.g.) or a new cleaner, more efficient and more effective powerplant (make the new stuff available now, don't wait for a new body style, i.e.) -- the point is I was only partially speaking of "retooling." Moreover, now that machines make machines, the cost of retooling has decreased.

But again, my request is for a compression of time for updates to the brain, heart and lungs (so to speak) of the automobile; later, or less frequently if there is a retooling argument at play, the ritual "skin rejuvenation" and lipo-suction can be scheduled.

Let me give a few examples of "improvements" that probably don't required new sheet metal to deploy (and I'll use Audi as my poster-child since I am familiar with that brand):

o Audi will wait to offer LED headlights until the B9 model (A4), but the technology has been in the "C's" (A6) for a couple of years. I can think of no legitimate reason this feature was withheld from the market.

o Top-view monitor, as much, or more, of an advance as the rear-view camera, has been around for years -- Audi will wait for the B9 class debuts before they offer this.

o Driver configurable dash (EFT tech), it too will have to wait for the next generation car

o 4G LTE internet connectivity -- also will have to wait, and no upgrade path is offered for older 3G radios buried in the MMI's guts. This ought to be like opening up your laptop, pulling the hard drive and replacing it with an SSD (all for $150 or less) and enjoying the performance of a no-moving-parts storage system without having to buy an entirely new PC

The list of features that could make the car perform better, be safer, have better in-car entertainment, navigation and driver assist aids do not require much, if any, retooling, but they would allow owners to keep their car's systems, on a selective basis, as current as the owner wants.

Perhaps this has little to do with capability or cost (to both the mfgr and the customer), perhaps it really is a way to compel (or at least impel) "the market" (you and me, perhaps, at the micro level) to trade in, trade up or just "get new" -- perhaps the status quo is as we know it today, to imbue aftermarket providers (SEMA) with endless opportunities to sell their wares. Who knows perhaps the mfgrs and SEMA companies are in a symbiotic relationship (I doubt they actually collude, however).

It just frustrates the ever-lovin' crap out of me to be almost unable to keep my cars as current as possible. I'd like to be able to pick and choose some of this year's features and incorporate them into my otherwise fine 3-year old.

Seems like you can put new wheels and tires on your car with ease -- and W/T combinations can provide performance, safety and styling improvements -- I just believe we have reached a point in time and technology where we ought to be able to do the same thing with the "technology package" most cars come standard with, these days (speaking of the PREMIUM CLASS, of course, for this and other posts).

A really big clue, to me at least, as to the lost opportunity mfgrs are "enjoying" is revealed over on audiworld.com where members breathlessly enthuse about the arrival (yesterday or the day before) of their new cars, then, in the next sentence, conclude "Let the modifications begin."

Lost opportunity if you ax me.

Sort-of unrelated: I finally met my very first non-Apple employee who was wearing an Apple Watch. As she explained it to me, it sounded pretty cool -- until she told me, that if you wanted to do almost anything other than tell time, you had to have your iPhone within about 30-50 feet of your wrist; meaning, effectively, you have to carry the phone to get much, if any, use out of the watch's smart features. I'm hereby volunteering to have an iPhone implanted -- with a charging plug inconspicuously positioned somewhere on my torso. You see: I'm looking to have empty pockets -- while they're at it, they can implant my smart car-key too (Audi keys are about the size of a small potato, for god's sake); I'd rather the car key be included with the car as a stylish and functional Mont Blanc pen. Seriously, I'm starting to list from the weight of all of the "remotes" and do-dads and clips and cards I carry in my pockets. Somebody help me, somebody help us all.

tlong

The automakers would much rather have you buy a new car for tens of thousands rather than plug and play a few modules and keep your current vehicle for a few more years.
The technology may "be there" to do new things sooner, but it's certainly not a no-cost proposition to continually re-tool parts as plug in replacements for previous ones. And it adds a lot of logistical complexity, too. Your headlight goes out - do you want one non-LED replacement, or two of the new LED equivalents? Let's stock duplicate sets of parts for all the different vintages and variants and versions of parts that are usable in the same basic model of car...etc. And the engineers retrofitting the LED lights to the existing Audi vehicles, the new LTE module to the existing vehicles, the new CPU to the existing vehicles - well they won't be working on designing the next model coming out in a few years then... unless you hire excess engineers for that...

The Apple watch (and Android Wear as well) are designed to be mostly peripheral devices to your phones. The battery technology just isn't there to have much power in the watch and have it still run all day.

dino001

markcincinnati said:

The biggest issue I see is production cycle and spare parts. While it may be cheaper to retool than it used to be, it is still expensive. Moreover, by law of many countries the manufacturers have to keep spare parts of their models for many years, I think it is ten or so. Increase number of variations and shorten the lifespan and the cost goes up, perhaps disproportionately.

nyccarguy

Overall I'm not a huge fan of the current body style C-Class.  The baby S Class styling is too much.  I don't like the current S class styling either.  However, I've always got my eye open.  On my way to the beach this afternoon I saw a gorgeous black/black C300 4Matic Sport sedan.  It had the lip spoiler on the back, the sporty looking 5 spoke wheels, the led lighting package.  Very sharp looking.  So I just built one online.  Given that I'm a man of adding few options these days, I just opted for what I thought I needed to make the C300 my own.  $47K & change sticker price.  I'm sure the 241 horsepower turbo 4 would be plenty motivation for my purposes, given the fact that my daily driver pumps out a whopping 175 horsepower.

I exited my C300 4 Matic Sport sedan build and started a new build.  Only this time I built a C400 Sport 4Matic sedan.  For about an extra $3500 with the same options, you get a 329 horsepower BiTurbo V6.  I like the sound of that.

flightnurse

nyccarguy said:

Overall I'm not a huge fan of the current body style C-Class.  The baby S Class styling is too much.  I don't like the current S class styling either.  However, I've always got my eye open.  On my way to the beach this afternoon I saw a gorgeous black/black C300 4Matic Sport sedan.  It had the lip spoiler on the back, the sporty looking 5 spoke wheels, the led lighting package.  Very sharp looking.  So I just built one online.  Given that I'm a man of adding few options these days, I just opted for what I thought I needed to make the C300 my own.  $47K & change sticker price.  I'm sure the 241 horsepower turbo 4 would be plenty motivation for my purposes, given the fact that my daily driver pumps out a whopping 175 horsepower.

I exited my C300 4 Matic Sport sedan build and started a new build.  Only this time I built a C400 Sport 4Matic sedan.  For about an extra $3500 with the same options, you get a 329 horsepower BiTurbo V6.  I like the sound of that.

What options did you do?

The MB Tex is of high quality and the contrasting stitching make it look very upscale, BMW could learn a thing about that.

I think MB did a good job with the new C class, I haven't driven one yet, but will in the next year.

dino001

MB Tex may be looking upscale, but it ain't. A friend of mine has an older C-class and it positively does not breath, giving you hot and sweaty feel in summer days, which is half of the time in Florida. Combine it with absolutely ridiculous price MB charges for the leather seats and any other significant option and very low in-stock availability (for that reason) and I have no interest in anything Benz. I once entered building C-class, but existed at around 55 grand for C300 (didn't even finish just yet) and 60+ grand for C400. No, thank you. Compared with those, 3-series is a picture of bargain-priced value (it really isn't, but in comparison to MB everything looks like one).

Sure, C-class looks better inside, but almost nobody buys 3-series for their interiors (if anything, those have always been deterrent rather lure). C-class is bigger, but that's not necessarily a good thing in ELLPS - those are not bough per pound or cubic foot.

It's a fine vehicle, if you like that sort of thing, but it is priced just silly. If you break down pricing to the car and the logo on the hood, it seems to me they charge for the star about double or triple of what BMW does (and admittedly BMW charges double or triple of what Acura does). In other words, the star on the hood costs literally thousands of dollars. I wonder how much dealers sell it for as a spare part

MB sometimes gives to dealers very substantial cash incentives once the novelty wears off and they are pretty good in hiding them from the public, so the brand stays protected, but even with that I'm not interested.

graphicguy

Dino, I've been on a couple of test drives in the new C Class. Pretty impressive, IMHO. Certainly the interior is the best of the class bunch. I do agree about the MBTex vs Leather. Some say you can't tell the difference. I certainly can, and it's not even close. That being the case, the real leather of the one I drove with the sport seats was of high quality.

I do think that the Turbo V6 is a bit of overkill in the car, but it does compare favorably to a 335i or S4. Perhaps that's because the turbo 4 is so smooth and responsive in the C300. The C400 I drove came in at the mid $50s. The C300 in the low $50s. Pricewise, I don't think the Mercedes is disadvantaged at all against the 3 Series or A/S Audis similarly equipped.

The dealer that I talked to said he'd take 10% off MSRP off any C he had in stock. That was a couple of months ago. So, not sure if it's still the case, but that makes a very, very nice C Class price extremely competitive.

NYC...one of the ones I test drove was a metallic grey C300 sport with the lip spoiler and front chin spoiler. It had red leather sport seats and the open pore wood accoutrements....very sharp. It came in at the high $40s. Dealer said the same as you....about $3,500 more for the same car with the V6 bi-turbo. Personally, I'd save the $3,500 and stick with the 4 pot....and that's saying something about how good the turbo 4 is. In all frankness, I am growing to love all these Turbo 4s these days, regardless of manufacturer. They're really torquey and provide excellent MPG.

robr2

I'm too am not a big fan of the S Class shrinky dink styling.

The local purveyor of MB's has over (20) 2013 C300 4 Matic all in the 13-17K mile range for about $32K. Not bad for a CPO unit IMHO.

And yes they all have MB Tex.

tlong

I also don't like the looks of the new C class. I've actually thought about getting a couple year old C-class at a deal rather than the new "ugly" one new.

kyfdx

tlong said:

I also don't like the looks of the new C class. I've actually thought about getting a couple year old C-class at a deal rather than the new "ugly" one new.

I agree.. the previous one was striking... It's like they tried to make this one look like the CLA, and it worked... it's not a good look.

dino001

graphicguy said:

The C300 in the low $50s. Pricewise, I don't think the Mercedes is disadvantaged at all against the 3 Series or A/S Audis similarly equipped.

I think you're right. Perhaps something changed, or I checked something too much. It is low 50s, indeed, which is similar to a loaded 328. BMW has galloped their prices recently well beyond what it used to be. I remember being absolutely shocked first time I optioned one to a comparable equipment with my E91 wagon. It was something like five grand more on the sticker and still couple of things missing. Admittedly, mine was last year of production, with several options thrown in gratis, or well discounted, but still, the difference was enormous. So I may stand corrected on this. It is annoying though, when local Benz dealer in my area have absolutely no faith in their customers' real wealth, if all they order is MB Tex on C-class (also GLA, CLA). Even E-class comes with MB Tex standard and large percentage of units on dealers' lots have it, which I find absolutely ridiculous. It apparently works. I wonder if that's something people don't realize until it's too late, or something people know, but don't care.

dino001

I read once that BMW's styling is based on 3-series and it is "blow-up" to their bigger models, including X-series (except of course their smallest models), whereas MB is shrink-down from the S-class. Apparently, the former works better, as it is easier to scale the aesthetics up than down.

breld

The purchase of the S3 for my wife a couple weeks ago may have accelerated my plans for the Mazda3 being a fun "in-between" car.

Test drove several S4s this past weekend (couple used ones and a couple new ones, manual and automatic).

Also looked at a 328d wagon and a 428i gran coupe (x drive).

Wife and I both have historically been very pro-BMW. But ours have almost all been more "enthusiast-oriented" (wife had a wagon much like dino's (m-sport manual)), and neither of us are getting too excited about the current models. The 328d wagon I drove felt somewhat ordinary. To be fair, it wasn't as equipped as we would like, but nevertheless it had a sticker of $55k.

The 428i I really enjoyed and do love the body style for its looks and functionality. The one I drove was a sport-line and pretty well equipped for the low $50k's. If I really checked the boxes for all the options I would like, it gets to the high $50k's pretty quickly.

So having said all that, I'm probably leaning more toward an S4. It's actually quite the value in comparison to some of the other cars I looked at. I think they've done a good job updating the tech in the car to keep it up to date in that way for such an outgoing model. I find it endearing that a car that's been around for so many years is still holding its own against the competition (and then some). And, it's nice Audi still offers the choice of the manual and auto.

If I can hold out for awhile, I may still wait to see the new model.

circlew

I received a exemplary comment over the weekend regarding my silver Q50S...the gentleman was early-20's.

"I really like your car, sir"...what a Gentleman!

roadburner

I recently stumbled upon a 335is which had to be custom ordered; CWP is the only option. No DCT, leather, Comfort Access, navigation, or H-K. The perfect E91 for me.

nyccarguy

roadburner said:

I recently stumbled upon a 335is which had to be custom ordered; CWP is the only option. No DCT, leather, Comfort Access, navigation, or H-K. The perfect E91 for me.

And?

nyccarguy

@flightnurse - here's the options I chose

C300 Sport with Lighting Package, Rear Spoiler, Premium Package, 4matic, Backup Camera, & Blind Spot Assist - MSRP $48,310 (Black/Black MB Text)

C400 4matic with Lighting Package, Spoiler, Blind Spot Assist, Backup Camera - MSRP $51,625 (Black/Black MB Text)

$3,315 difference

Like @robr2 said, pretty much every C on the lot here in the northeast is going to have MB Text.

breld

I'll be a dissenting voice here and say I like the styling of the new C-class. I think it offers a different, elegant alternative to the comparable BMW and Audi. I do agree it looks a bit too much like the CLA, but not sure that's a bad thing.

@nyccarguy - I'm with you that the sport package design elements and wheels add a lot to the overall aesthetic.

Of course, when I was looking at the S4 and 428i this past weekend, we went right by a MB dealer and I decided not to stop and look at the C-class. So not sure what that says. I suppose I appreciate the look of the car, but not sure it's a fit for me.

stickguy

I sat in a new style C (used). Looked nice to me. Really liked the interior.

Michaell

breld said:

I'll be a dissenting voice here and say I like the styling of the new C-class. I think it offers a different, elegant alternative to the comparable BMW and Audi. I do agree it looks a bit too much like the CLA, but not sure that's a bad thing.

@nyccarguy - I'm with you that the sport package design elements and wheels add a lot to the overall aesthetic.

Of course, when I was looking at the S4 and 428i this past weekend, we went right by a MB dealer and I decided not to stop and look at the C-class. So not sure what that says. I suppose I appreciate the look of the car, but not sure it's a fit for me.

Having met you, is that a "figurative" fit or a "literal" fit?

dino001

So I guess the star on the hood overcomes anything. Essentially nobody else can get away with that, not even BMW - their version of 328/335 with the plastic seat covers usually become lot queens, at least here (can't speak of 320, as those are obviously different kind of buyers, they may go for it much more often).

markcincinnati

circlew said:

I received a exemplary comment over the weekend regarding my silver Q50S...the gentleman was early-20's.

"I really like your car, sir"...what a Gentleman!

Sometimes I just cringe when someone calls me sir -- I think it heralds the beginning of the end.

I was driving into the office today and made an attempt (1/2 hour commute) to note the age of the driver of every Mercedes I saw. I only saw E's and S's, but I did see a double digit number. I did not make any attempt to categorize by gender or apparent ethnicity. My memory says I saw only two ethnic groups represented "black and white" -- and of course two genders.

What struck me was the apparent fact that the E's and S's were all AWD versions and were all driven by what certainly appeared to me to be people beyond their 50's. Is this observation in any way statistically significant? Probably not, but it could be, at least, an interesting data-point. I drive through mostly upper-middle income neighborhoods on my commute, FWIW.

Before you think I've gone off some rail here, I was having a conversation with a friend about cars and the subject of Cadillac came up -- his comment was that they remain cars that attract "mature" owners, retired folk, apparently in his view.

The article above about the efforts of the new Cadillac President to change the behavior (mentality) of dealers made me think he was onto something. Cadillac dealers don't act like Audi, BMW and Mercedes dealers -- and they still paint prices on the windshields of the cars on their lots (I make it a practice to avoid dealers who paint prices on the windshield of the cars on their lot, I fear them, frankly.)

My perception is that BMW has the youngest drivers of the German Premium Crowd, closely followed by Audi (but that may be because of the Q5's success -- and that it would appear Q5's have a relatively young owner-set.) Audi, too, with the A3/S3 may be trolling for ever younger owners.

But, that still leaves me with the observation -- this morning -- that the E and S class Mercs were AWD and all driven by, apparently, Baby Boomers, current Xer's and Millennial's weren't participating this AM, at least.

Here I am 64, driving an S4 -- I guess I should be in what -- an A6 or CTS or perhaps a 5 series or should it be an XTS Cadillac. Wondering what, if any, studies of the age of owners exists -- with all the focus on Millennials and away from us Boomers, these days, it would seem to be some valuable data.

Ever notice the current crop of Buick ads wherein the "little ol' lady" remarks "Oh MY!" when she is told she's in a new Buick. Is that a nod toward the past or is that a convoluted way of suggesting that new Buicks will be appreciated by those of a certain maturity and perhaps even attractive to them?

Wondering if part of the issue confronting some car mfgrs, could be they need to make their cars seem to be desired by Millennials.

Maybe on the way home, I'll count BMW drivers.

flightnurse

nyccarguy said:

@flightnurse - here's the options I chose

C300 Sport with Lighting Package, Rear Spoiler, Premium Package, 4matic, Backup Camera, & Blind Spot Assist - MSRP $48,310 (Black/Black MB Text)

C400 4matic with Lighting Package, Spoiler, Blind Spot Assist, Backup Camera - MSRP $51,625 (Black/Black MB Text)

$3,315 difference

Like @robr2 said, pretty much every C on the lot here in the northeast is going to have MB Text.

Most of the C class here in phoenix don't have leather either, those are the options I would choose to minus the 4matic.

flightnurse

Today we went to the BMW dealer, signed all paper for Ricks 328xi GT, we leave 3 week tomorrow, rebate paperpwork sent to BMWCCA for our $500. Car has entered status 150, basically it's set for production, no changes can be made and a VIN has been assigned, however when I place the VIN in our insurance companies website, it comes back as a 2016 340xi...

circlew

I did not know Infinity made engines for Mercedes.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150810/OEM01/308109966/infiniti-engine-making-isnt-a-job-its-a-craft

robr2

markcincinnati said:

circlew said:

I received a exemplary comment over the weekend regarding my silver Q50S...the gentleman was early-20's.

"I really like your car, sir"...what a Gentleman!

Sometimes I just cringe when someone calls me sir -- I think it heralds the beginning of the end.

I was driving into the office today and made an attempt (1/2 hour commute) to note the age of the driver of every Mercedes I saw. I only saw E's and S's, but I did see a double digit number. I did not make any attempt to categorize by gender or apparent ethnicity. My memory says I saw only two ethnic groups represented "black and white" -- and of course two genders.

What struck me was the apparent fact that the E's and S's were all AWD versions and were all driven by what certainly appeared to me to be people beyond their 50's. Is this observation in any way statistically significant? Probably not, but it could be, at least, an interesting data-point. I drive through mostly upper-middle income neighborhoods on my commute, FWIW.

Before you think I've gone off some rail here, I was having a conversation with a friend about cars and the subject of Cadillac came up -- his comment was that they remain cars that attract "mature" owners, retired folk, apparently in his view.

The article above about the efforts of the new Cadillac President to change the behavior (mentality) of dealers made me think he was onto something. Cadillac dealers don't act like Audi, BMW and Mercedes dealers -- and they still paint prices on the windshields of the cars on their lots (I make it a practice to avoid dealers who paint prices on the windshield of the cars on their lot, I fear them, frankly.)

My perception is that BMW has the youngest drivers of the German Premium Crowd, closely followed by Audi (but that may be because of the Q5's success -- and that it would appear Q5's have a relatively young owner-set.) Audi, too, with the A3/S3 may be trolling for ever younger owners.

But, that still leaves me with the observation -- this morning -- that the E and S class Mercs were AWD and all driven by, apparently, Baby Boomers, current Xer's and Millennial's weren't participating this AM, at least.

Here I am 64, driving an S4 -- I guess I should be in what -- an A6 or CTS or perhaps a 5 series or should it be an XTS Cadillac. Wondering what, if any, studies of the age of owners exists -- with all the focus on Millennials and away from us Boomers, these days, it would seem to be some valuable data.

Ever notice the current crop of Buick ads wherein the "little ol' lady" remarks "Oh MY!" when she is told she's in a new Buick. Is that a nod toward the past or is that a convoluted way of suggesting that new Buicks will be appreciated by those of a certain maturity and perhaps even attractive to them?

Wondering if part of the issue confronting some car mfgrs, could be they need to make their cars seem to be desired by Millennials.

Maybe on the way home, I'll count BMW drivers.

Per IIHS study:

Age of buyers
BMW 50.9
MB 54.6
Cadillac 59.5
Audi 50.3
Infiniti 49.4

and the winner for youngest
Land Rover 47.9
Dodge 48.6

and oldest
Lincoln 61.0
Buick 60.3

Age of the average buyer is 52.

robr2

circlew said:

I did not know Infinity made engines for Mercedes.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150810/OEM01/308109966/infiniti-engine-making-isnt-a-job-its-a-craft

And in return, Infiniti gets to use the MFA platform from the A/CLA/GLA to underpin the Q30/QX30.

MB and Infiniti have also invested in a joint plant in Mexico to build compact vehicles.

kyfdx

flightnurse said:

Today we went to the BMW dealer, signed all paper for Ricks 328xi GT, we leave 3 week tomorrow, rebate paperpwork sent to BMWCCA for our $500. Car has entered status 150, basically it's set for production, no changes can be made and a VIN has been assigned, however when I place the VIN in our insurance companies website, it comes back as a 2016 340xi...

Here is hoping it turns out to be a 340!!

flightnurse

kyfdx said:

flightnurse said:

Today we went to the BMW dealer, signed all paper for Ricks 328xi GT, we leave 3 week tomorrow, rebate paperpwork sent to BMWCCA for our $500. Car has entered status 150, basically it's set for production, no changes can be made and a VIN has been assigned, however when I place the VIN in our insurance companies website, it comes back as a 2016 340xi...

Here is hoping it turns out to be a 340!!

Well in some ways, if it is a 340xi with the equipment we ordered we got one hell of a deal, and I can see how fast we can sell it and make a nice profit.

roadburner

nyccarguy said:

And?

Well, the dealer has lowered the online price by $2,500- but it's still about $4,000 too high. And I'm still not sure that it will keep me entertained for the long haul...

breld

Michaell said:

breld said:

I'll be a dissenting voice here and say I like the styling of the new C-class. I think it offers a different, elegant alternative to the comparable BMW and Audi. I do agree it looks a bit too much like the CLA, but not sure that's a bad thing.

@nyccarguy - I'm with you that the sport package design elements and wheels add a lot to the overall aesthetic.

Of course, when I was looking at the S4 and 428i this past weekend, we went right by a MB dealer and I decided not to stop and look at the C-class. So not sure what that says. I suppose I appreciate the look of the car, but not sure it's a fit for me.

Having met you, is that a "figurative" fit or a "literal" fit?

Well, figuratively, though I haven't spent much time in one, so could be literal too.

cdnpinhead

roadburner said:

nyccarguy said:

And?

Well, the dealer has lowered the online price by $2,500- but it's still about $4,000 too high. And I'm still not sure that it will keep me entertained for the long haul...

I find that fewer and fewer things entertain me at all, let alone for the long haul.

YMMV.

markcincinnati

cdnpinhead said:

roadburner said:

nyccarguy said:

And?

Well, the dealer has lowered the online price by $2,500- but it's still about $4,000 too high. And I'm still not sure that it will keep me entertained for the long haul...

I find that fewer and fewer things entertain me at all, let alone for the long haul.

YMMV.

Oh man, don't say that -- you mean even the current High Jingo political antics aren't gettin' it done for you?

andys120

Looking over recent posts it is obvious that Mr. Lutz, however valid his qualifications, did hit on something important. As long as people are going to rule out (or seek out) cars based on design and styling car makers would do well to hire the best designers they can.

I don't agree that Hyun/Kia has the best looking cars out there but they are good looking and affordable and it seems that Mr. Shreyer has been worth a small fortune for the Korean auto maker.

Mr_Shiftright

Who was it---GM's Bunky Knudsen who said: "You can sell a young man's car to an old person, but you can't sell an old man's car to a young person". Lincoln, take note.

robr2 said:

markcincinnati said:

circlew said:

I received a exemplary comment over the weekend regarding my silver Q50S...the gentleman was early-20's.

"I really like your car, sir"...what a Gentleman!

Sometimes I just cringe when someone calls me sir -- I think it heralds the beginning of the end.

I was driving into the office today and made an attempt (1/2 hour commute) to note the age of the driver of every Mercedes I saw. I only saw E's and S's, but I did see a double digit number. I did not make any attempt to categorize by gender or apparent ethnicity. My memory says I saw only two ethnic groups represented "black and white" -- and of course two genders.

What struck me was the apparent fact that the E's and S's were all AWD versions and were all driven by what certainly appeared to me to be people beyond their 50's. Is this observation in any way statistically significant? Probably not, but it could be, at least, an interesting data-point. I drive through mostly upper-middle income neighborhoods on my commute, FWIW.

Before you think I've gone off some rail here, I was having a conversation with a friend about cars and the subject of Cadillac came up -- his comment was that they remain cars that attract "mature" owners, retired folk, apparently in his view.

The article above about the efforts of the new Cadillac President to change the behavior (mentality) of dealers made me think he was onto something. Cadillac dealers don't act like Audi, BMW and Mercedes dealers -- and they still paint prices on the windshields of the cars on their lots (I make it a practice to avoid dealers who paint prices on the windshield of the cars on their lot, I fear them, frankly.)

My perception is that BMW has the youngest drivers of the German Premium Crowd, closely followed by Audi (but that may be because of the Q5's success -- and that it would appear Q5's have a relatively young owner-set.) Audi, too, with the A3/S3 may be trolling for ever younger owners.

But, that still leaves me with the observation -- this morning -- that the E and S class Mercs were AWD and all driven by, apparently, Baby Boomers, current Xer's and Millennial's weren't participating this AM, at least.

Here I am 64, driving an S4 -- I guess I should be in what -- an A6 or CTS or perhaps a 5 series or should it be an XTS Cadillac. Wondering what, if any, studies of the age of owners exists -- with all the focus on Millennials and away from us Boomers, these days, it would seem to be some valuable data.

Ever notice the current crop of Buick ads wherein the "little ol' lady" remarks "Oh MY!" when she is told she's in a new Buick. Is that a nod toward the past or is that a convoluted way of suggesting that new Buicks will be appreciated by those of a certain maturity and perhaps even attractive to them?

Wondering if part of the issue confronting some car mfgrs, could be they need to make their cars seem to be desired by Millennials.

Maybe on the way home, I'll count BMW drivers.

Per IIHS study:

Age of buyers
BMW 50.9
MB 54.6
Cadillac 59.5
Audi 50.3
Infiniti 49.4

and the winner for youngest
Land Rover 47.9
Dodge 48.6

and oldest
Lincoln 61.0
Buick 60.3

Age of the average buyer is 52.

robr2

Mr_Shiftright said:

Who was it---GM's Bunky Knudsen who said: "You can sell a young man's car to an old person, but you can't sell an old man's car to a young person". Lincoln, take note.

robr2 said:

markcincinnati said:

circlew said:

I received a exemplary comment over the weekend regarding my silver Q50S...the gentleman was early-20's.

"I really like your car, sir"...what a Gentleman!

Sometimes I just cringe when someone calls me sir -- I think it heralds the beginning of the end.

I was driving into the office today and made an attempt (1/2 hour commute) to note the age of the driver of every Mercedes I saw. I only saw E's and S's, but I did see a double digit number. I did not make any attempt to categorize by gender or apparent ethnicity. My memory says I saw only two ethnic groups represented "black and white" -- and of course two genders.

What struck me was the apparent fact that the E's and S's were all AWD versions and were all driven by what certainly appeared to me to be people beyond their 50's. Is this observation in any way statistically significant? Probably not, but it could be, at least, an interesting data-point. I drive through mostly upper-middle income neighborhoods on my commute, FWIW.

Before you think I've gone off some rail here, I was having a conversation with a friend about cars and the subject of Cadillac came up -- his comment was that they remain cars that attract "mature" owners, retired folk, apparently in his view.

The article above about the efforts of the new Cadillac President to change the behavior (mentality) of dealers made me think he was onto something. Cadillac dealers don't act like Audi, BMW and Mercedes dealers -- and they still paint prices on the windshields of the cars on their lots (I make it a practice to avoid dealers who paint prices on the windshield of the cars on their lot, I fear them, frankly.)

My perception is that BMW has the youngest drivers of the German Premium Crowd, closely followed by Audi (but that may be because of the Q5's success -- and that it would appear Q5's have a relatively young owner-set.) Audi, too, with the A3/S3 may be trolling for ever younger owners.

But, that still leaves me with the observation -- this morning -- that the E and S class Mercs were AWD and all driven by, apparently, Baby Boomers, current Xer's and Millennial's weren't participating this AM, at least.

Here I am 64, driving an S4 -- I guess I should be in what -- an A6 or CTS or perhaps a 5 series or should it be an XTS Cadillac. Wondering what, if any, studies of the age of owners exists -- with all the focus on Millennials and away from us Boomers, these days, it would seem to be some valuable data.

Ever notice the current crop of Buick ads wherein the "little ol' lady" remarks "Oh MY!" when she is told she's in a new Buick. Is that a nod toward the past or is that a convoluted way of suggesting that new Buicks will be appreciated by those of a certain maturity and perhaps even attractive to them?

Wondering if part of the issue confronting some car mfgrs, could be they need to make their cars seem to be desired by Millennials.

Maybe on the way home, I'll count BMW drivers.

Per IIHS study:

Age of buyers
BMW 50.9
MB 54.6
Cadillac 59.5
Audi 50.3
Infiniti 49.4

and the winner for youngest
Land Rover 47.9
Dodge 48.6

and oldest
Lincoln 61.0
Buick 60.3

Age of the average buyer is 52.

Well Lincoln has brought their age down from 65 in 2012 so things are moving in a positive manner.

Mr_Shiftright

Well that's good but keep in mind that age 61 is still an *average*.

nyccarguy

stickguy said:

I sat in a new style C (used). Looked nice to me. Really liked the interior.

MB always seems to have a decent amount of trunk money available. Dealers purchase "lot queens" for their service department, punch them as "sold," pocket the incentive money, use the cars for service loaners for 5K to 10K miles, & then sell them 6 months down the road for a good price compared to brand new at a nice, tidy profit. My only issue with buying an ex-service loaner German car is the fact that you know the majority of people put RUG (87) in the car before they returned it even though it requires PUG (91+).

robr2

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well that's good but keep in mind that age 61 is still an *average*.

Well the average age of a Bugatti buyer is 60. Does that mean that only old codgers buy them?

robr2

nyccarguy said:

stickguy said:

I sat in a new style C (used). Looked nice to me. Really liked the interior.

MB always seems to have a decent amount of trunk money available. Dealers purchase "lot queens" for their service department, punch them as "sold," pocket the incentive money, use the cars for service loaners for 5K to 10K miles, & then sell them 6 months down the road for a good price compared to brand new at a nice, tidy profit. My only issue with buying an ex-service loaner German car is the fact that you know the majority of people put RUG (87) in the car before they returned it even though it requires PUG (91+).

Since the computer adjusts for the octane, it really shouldn't be an issue.

Mr_Shiftright

Well sure it means that about half (more or less) of the buyers are old codgers, yes--that's what an average is, an arithmetic mean....presuming you think 60+ is very old.

robr2 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well that's good but keep in mind that age 61 is still an *average*.

Well the average age of a Bugatti buyer is 60. Does that mean that only old codgers buy them?

flightnurse

nyccarguy said:

stickguy said:

I sat in a new style C (used). Looked nice to me. Really liked the interior.

MB always seems to have a decent amount of trunk money available. Dealers purchase "lot queens" for their service department, punch them as "sold," pocket the incentive money, use the cars for service loaners for 5K to 10K miles, & then sell them 6 months down the road for a good price compared to brand new at a nice, tidy profit. My only issue with buying an ex-service loaner German car is the fact that you know the majority of people put RUG (87) in the car before they returned it even though it requires PUG (91+).

You have data to prove this?

kyfdx

Anecdotal experience.. from all of the luxury buyers that ask, "Do I have to run Premium in my XYZ luxury car?", would lead me to believe that's true..

nyccarguy

No, I don't have any actual proof, but I just know how people are.

dino001

kyfdx said:

Anecdotal experience.. from all of the luxury buyers that ask, "Do I have to run Premium in my XYZ luxury car?", would lead me to believe that's true..

I'd concur that there is a very good chance for it. Similar with rental cars - I recently got a PUG Mazda MX-5. After I refueled it with PUG (it was a long mileage rental), the car got much more lively. I'm pretty sure it was full of RUG.

markcincinnati

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well sure it means that about half (more or less) of the buyers are old codgers, yes--that's what an average is, an arithmetic mean....presuming you think 60+ is very old.

robr2 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well that's good but keep in mind that age 61 is still an *average*.

Well the average age of a Bugatti buyer is 60. Does that mean that only old codgers buy them?

Only knowing the mean does not provide enough information to declare that "about half" of the buyers are old codgers. To have a really good understanding of what the majority of ages is, you would also need to know the mode, median and range -- to get a better idea of the number(s) that occurs most often. The issue with mean is that a bunch of 45-ish year olds buying a certain car would return an "average age" around 45, as you would expect; but, throw in a couple of purchases by some 25 year olds and a few more over 75 and well, depending on the size of the population, you could skew below or above 45 even though the population as individuals is "over half" 45-ish.

I was quite surprised to see the average age of BMW buyers was "THAT OLD!" But, you see, I've been going to the BMW Store here in Cincinnati at least since the mid 1980's, and my impression is that the show room is full of shoppers who are "really really young" -- and I have always presumed well-to-do. I went the Audi route when all my friends went with BMW's because #1 the Audi brand had quattro and #2, I always felt you could buy the next higher line of Audi for the same price as the lower line BMW, so I thought the value and performance leader was always Audi (you could say, too, I guess, I was, ahem, more frugal than my BMW lovin' friends).

But back to the math -- an average age of 60 does not mean the majority of buyers are over 60. There isn't enough information to know, if all you know is the "average." Mean, Mode, Median, Range and while were at it Standard Deviation, on the other hand would paint a much clearer picture of the number of "old timers" buying a particular automotive brand.

I have one more data point -- every Corvette that I have seen FOR YEARS seems to be piloted by a driver who either looks like Bill Clinton or Bill Cosby (speaking ONLY of a certain appearance that suggests age, not lasciviousness.)

But the car seems to be marketed to a much younger person, if you have ever seen an ad or brochure.

markcincinnati

I always put premium gas in the "free-loaners" the dealer provides; my wife does too. It never even occurred to me that putting anything less in the tank was an option.

Force of habit, I guess.

Yet, even if the allegation that Premium Car owners chintz out on the gas they put in the FREE loaner cars, the engine management computer probably does do a decent job of preventing any real damage.

I can't remember the last time I put anything but premium gas in ANY car I was driving -- really, force of habit. I would liken this to having a kid with a peanut allergy, I would just automatically avoid anything I thought might have even heard the word peanut.

Sad indictment of folks if they really do put regular in the S4 or A6 or X3 they have just been loaned.

What a world, what a world.